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Rant & Rave without repercussion S 5 continued [book spoilers]


kissdbyfire

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Olyvar was in scenes with Oberyn where he didn't understand how this guy could also like women.

He already betrayed Loras once when he squired for him and slept with him-relaying info about Sansa wedding to LF

I don't think he has any romantic feelings for Loras, but since he's basically running the brothel for LF at this point, its good to have connections.

Still, I would have imagined him being afraid during testimony. Or looking a little beat up. Those Sparrows are serious.

 

PS-not a big fan of him either.

As RGBA said, he was established as gay in one of Oberyn's totally-well-written spiels about sexuality, in the orgy scene.

 

You know, the thing that makes me the angriest about the Loras-Olyvar thing is that it actually could have been done well. Sure, some things are irreparable (Loras telling Olyvar his family's secrets because lol why not), but if, let's say, Loras used cold, unemotional sex to cope with Renly's loss, it could've worked! But no. This Loras legitimately doesn't give a fuck about Renly anymore. He's got a new guy to fuck, who cares about the other one.

Ah, thanks! 

good old times when Ellaria wasn't a Lady Stoneheart and just lived in the brothel and participated in orgies.

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Having now posted my Essay about the writing of female characters, I'm a bit aghast about the reactions I get. I don't understand those who say "Males have different hormones than females". You don't tell. Fine, but how should an author include them in his characterizations? Shall all males be aggressive brutes because testosterone? Shaping their characters through socialization and education is easier and you don't tint your narrative through stereotypes and sell them as the real thing, so what the hell is that for a counter argument?

 

And yeah, I've used the GoT/ASoIaF-comparison excessively, so that should give you a good understanding what happens if you both make conscious differences in writing men and women and be an insensitive prick about it.

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Actually, I want to know how they decide the casting. For what it looks like, they all gather together to watch porn.

 

"That girl has nice tits. Call her. We will need whores. We always need whores".

"For what scene?"

"I'm not talking about the show... although... yeah, why not"

 

Yeah wasn't the audition scene for Tyene the scene where she flashes her boobs for Bronn? That must have been very awkward for everyone involved. And I can just picture D&D sitting there smiling..

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Having now posted my Essay about the writing of female characters, I'm a bit aghast about the reactions I get. I don't understand those who say "Males have different hormones than females". You don't tell. Fine, but how should an author include them in his characterizations? Shall all males be aggressive brutes because testosterone? Shaping their characters through socialization and education is easier and you don't tint your narrative through stereotypes and sell them as the real thing, so what the hell is that for a counter argument?

 

And yeah, I've used the GoT/ASoIaF-comparison excessively, so that should give you a good understanding what happens if you both make conscious differences in writing men and women and be an insensitive prick about it.

 

It's all right.

 

If you write that men and women are the same, you get those responses. 

 

If you write that they are different, you are called sexist.

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Yeah wasn't the audition scene for Tyene the scene where she flashes her boobs for Bronn? That must have been very awkward for everyone involved. And I can just picture D&D sitting there smiling..

The worst part is that Tyene's actress is nineteen. Probably eighteen during the casting. And it's likely that the casting call called for girls all around that age.

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It's all right.

 

If you write that men and women are the same, you get those responses. 

 

If you write that they are different, you are called sexist.

 

The weird thing is, it just looks like a "hormons vs. socialization" debate I had shortly before. I had already found myself in a minority by stating that both are a thing, but I give socialization and education the edge because those take the mold of the human and shape it into the individual personality, while the genes only give very, very, very basic tendencies that can or cannot be overruled by conscious decisions. But people kept telling me I have to look at the statistics in everything (the thread was about differing taste in literature) and should assume that every majority I see was purely based on genetics, not on books parents throw at their children like I saw it (and were unwilling to accept that both theories could coexist without scientifical proof and we had none).

 

Sorry for the slight off-topic thing. This thread has become something like a save haven to vent my frustration about debates like this.

 

Back to the show... gods, I was recently thinking about that I still don't understand why they needed to butcher Sandor Clegane. His whole character and cynism centered around the fact, that -> knights <- are nothing more than glorified killers and this was just the idealistic little Sandor with his wooden toy knight speaking, who couldn't understand that his hideous monster of a brother of all people has become a knight and gets through with all the sick shit he does.

Show!Sandor however was all about how fun killing people is and that all -> men <- are killers. And he doesn't even say this psychotic crap in a way that sounds he resents a world to be like this, instead it's painted as if he just wants to enlighten both Stark girls with his wisdom because the world actually is like that.

 

So the Ds basically butchered Sandor to make him their own speaker to tell the audience how brutal Westeros is. Wow. We would never have guessed that one without Sandor telling us. Yeah, but what's now with the hypocrisy of chivalry? Oh, Sandor doesn't care about that. Fine... -.-

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I hate that they put a crappy Dorne storyline in and then cut out the Young Griff storyline. Heck any of the storylines cut out would have been better than what they did with Dorne.


If they'd cut the Dorne storyline altogether and inserted in its place clips from Ed Wood's Plan 9 from Outer Space it would have been much better, and it would have made more sense. ;)
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Men and women are not the same. Never heard anyone say that before, nor that it's sexist.

Ruth Bader Ginsberg: "Inherent differences" between men and women, we have come to appreciate, remain cause for celebration, but not for denigration of the members of either sex or for artificial constraints on an individual's opportunity.

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The weird thing is, it just looks like a "hormons vs. socialization" debate I had shortly before. I had already found myself in a minority by stating that both are a thing, but I give socialization and education the edge because those take the mold of the human and shape it into the individual personality, while the genes only give very, very, very basic tendencies that can or cannot be overruled by conscious decisions. But people kept telling me I have to look at the statistics in everything (the thread was about differing taste in literature) and should assume that every majority I see was purely based on genetics, not on books parents throw at their children like I saw it (and were unwilling to accept that both theories could coexist without scientifical proof and we had none).

 

Sorry for the slight off-topic thing. This thread has become something like a save haven to vent my frustration about debates like this.

 

Back to the show... gods, I was recently thinking about that I still don't understand why they needed to butcher Sandor Clegane. His whole character and cynism centered around the fact, that -> knights <- are nothing more than glorified killers and this was just the idealistic little Sandor with his wooden toy knight speaking, who couldn't understand that his hideous monster of a brother of all people has become a knight and gets through with all the sick shit he does.

Show!Sandor however was all about how fun killing people is and that all -> men <- are killers. And he doesn't even say this psychotic crap in a way that sounds he resents a world to be like this, instead it's painted as if he just wants to enlighten both Stark girls with his wisdom because the world actually is like that.

 

So the Ds basically butchered Sandor to make him their own speaker to tell the audience how brutal Westeros is. Wow. We would never have guessed that one without Sandor telling us. Yeah, but what's now with the hypocrisy of chivalry? Oh, Sandor doesn't care about that. Fine... -.-

Some members of the fandom are like that as well. You'll often hear people say "he's a killer, but at least he's honest about it!" Yes, but he did murder a helpless little boy without remorse. He is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination, he merely serves as an excellent deconstruction of the knight in shining armour trope. 

 

And speaking of the show superficially presenting characters, show Tywin is far worse than show Sandor. D and D seem to genuinely believe that Tywin is the consumate politician he claims he is, rather than the narrow minded, vindictive, cruel and spiteful individual from the books. Right from the star they went off the reservation with the character - as good as Charles Dance is, that opening speech  about not caring what people think runs counter to the book, who is deeply motivated by the perception of his family. People said that Tyrion was a curse sent by the gods to punish Tywin, and look at how he treats his son afterwards. Book Tywin is consumed by the notion of how he is presented, but the show inexplicably wanted him to be the kind of man he presents himself as. 

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Some members of the fandom are like that as well. You'll often hear people say "he's a killer, but at least he's honest about it!" Yes, but he did murder a helpless little boy without remorse. He is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination, he merely serves as an excellent deconstruction of the knight in shining armour trope.


Why go there with the good and bad thing. "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Sandor followed an order too well, and he expressed remorse repeatedly. Then he risked his life to save the lives of Sansa and Arya. He's not in the story "merely" to represent a take on a trope. There's a lot of depth to the character, and he's got a lot more story to come, I think. On the show, too...

 

Here we go, meaningful character development here:

 

http://thefeatherofhope.tumblr.com/post/80086349970/princessaryastark-game-of-thrones-02x06

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And speaking of the show superficially presenting characters, show Tywin is far worse than show Sandor. D and D seem to genuinely believe that Tywin is the consumate politician he claims he is, rather than the narrow minded, vindictive, cruel and spiteful individual from the books. Right from the star they went off the reservation with the character - as good as Charles Dance is, that opening speech  about not caring what people think runs counter to the book, who is deeply motivated by the perception of his family. People said that Tyrion was a curse sent by the gods to punish Tywin, and look at how he treats his son afterwards. Book Tywin is consumed by the notion of how he is presented, but the show inexplicably wanted him to be the kind of man he presents himself as. 

I know, right? It's why I'm not at all fond of the ever-praised Arya-Tywin scenes in Harrenhal. There's something not right about Tywin behaving like a kind old grandpa.

I mean, they think he's ""Lawful Neutral"", for god's sake.

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The Show!Sandor thing is a shame, because I really like Rory McCann as him. I think he could've nailed a character based around "bitter and resentful deconstruction of knightood", but ah well. What can you do.


But he did actually play the true knight on occasion. That's part of his story in the books, too. He's like a male version of Sansa, that's what he wanted to be, the knight in the songs, but his brother destroyed his life. He loves someone in the story, quite a lot (and it's not Arya who was his one happy memory, just saying). And he's trying to get back to the person he once was, after some serious trauma, which is more than a lot of them are doing.

 

Here's some reconstruction:

 

http://rollo.co.vu/post/101187863524/every-sansan-scene-315

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But he did actually play the true knight on occasion. That's part of his story in the books, too. He's like a male version of Sansa, that's what he wanted to be, the knight in the songs, but his brother destroyed his life. He loves someone in the story, quite a lot (and it's not Arya who was his one happy memory, just saying). And he's trying to get back to the person he once was, after some serious trauma, which is more than a lot of them are doing.

 

(adding what I replied to)

 

Yep, this. In many ways he is like Jaime in the early books that in his resentment for the world he simply stopped caring. That's why Jaime repeatedly kicked the dog with both Bran and with murdering Ned's guards without thinking about alternatives first (not that there actually was one with Bran, to be honest) and why Sandor simply accepted the story of the prince having been struck down by that boy and kills him for it (instead of ignoring the order and letting the Northeners take the boy).

 

It's actually nice to see that extremely cynical characters limit themselves in their options the same way extremely honorable characters do. Through stopping to care, they don't weigh their options and go for the one that seems most obvious to them. And Sandor in particular isn't called the Hound for nothing, he simply shrugs and does exactly what you tell him if the matter at hand has no personal meaning to him (like his liking to Sansa and his fear of fire).

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It's actually nice to see that extremely cynical characters limit themselves in their options the same way extremely honorable characters do. Through stopping to care, they don't weigh their options and go for the one that seems most obvious to them. And Sandor in particular isn't called the Hound for nothing, he simply shrugs and does exactly what you tell him if the matter at hand has no personal meaning to him (like his liking to Sansa and his fear of fire).

 

Loras didn't have personal meaning to him, but he risked his life to save him. Characters don't remain static throughout a story. There's a crisis, and they either go under, or they fight the tide. And he fought the tide, and it took courage to do that.

 

I think there's honor to Sandor. And the Hound was the persona he adopted as a defense mechanism when his brother destroyed his life. When Arya took him off her list, she called him Sandor. Becoming Sandor again was something he chose to do.

 

Also his affinity with dogs remains, we see that with the Dog parallels. And very early in the story (season one on the show), he adopted a different master, in this case, a mistress. His loyalties clearly shifted. He didn't have much of a choice the first time, but he chose well this time.

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Loras didn't have personal meaning to him, but he risked his life to save him. Characters don't remain static throughout a story. There's a crisis, and they either go under, or they fight the tide. And he fought the tide, and it took courage to do that.

 

I think there's honor to Sandor. And the Hound was the persona he adopted as a defense mechanism when his brother destroyed his life. When Arya took him off her list, she called him Sandor. Becoming Sandor again was something he chose to do.

 

Well, no one told him not to interfere or was there one? Of course there is honor in him, I have already imagined it above as that little boy with the toy knight in his head who both feels very drawn to Sansa because of the similar mindset and feels the need to stop his brother's atrocities when he happens to witness them.

 

I was just saying that his defensive mechanism didn't do him so much good when it comes to his actions and the consciousness he needs to drown in alcohol. Repeatedly.

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