Barbossa Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Was having a conversation with some co-workers about what things are far fetched in the GOT universe and this thought popped into my head. At this point in time Robb had the backing of every house in the north. On top of that you have to take into consideration that north-men take pride in their honor, set honor was put into question when Robb the king had his judgement being called on by one of his generals who basically spat in his face. So Robb does what north-men do, he gives him a chance to beg for forgiveness or he takes his life. Doing this show strength in the eyes of his fellow north-men (except for Rose who we all know is a vampire or something) not weakness. He beheads his general and now..his troops have the balls to desert him??? How exactly does that happen? How do they think that Robb won't simply erase them off the map if they desert him? Given what we know about north-men at this point and their history especially, how is it that they even think to this? I think this is one of the biggest plot-holes in the whole show in my book. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yeah, to an extent. Lord Karstark lost 2 sons to Jaime in battle, a third I think was a prisoner but expected to die I guess. Lord Karstark was executed and the men under him which was substantial all went home un-inhibited by Walder Frey. I could see it. Robb should have pardoned him as he did not kill his own Mother as lawfully, he could have done. Robb made a lot of mistakes at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I have to agree completely, I thought it was a huge mistake but also a bit of BS all around, but you can't get mad a totally fantasy storyline of a totally fantasy story is BS lol. I think it was a bit ridiculous that Lord Karstark got as totally out of control as he did, even with his losses which were of course considerable, and insulting and demeaning both Lady Catelyn Tully Stark (a woman who has TWO titles better than Karstarks really, her fathers family/title AND her husbands family/title are above Karstark) and insulting and demeaning The King In the North, Robb, at every turn. I think Robb was a little ridiculous that he both broke his word, which I guess I could understand - then marries when they could have carried on secretly until after the war- but then goes back to the Freys, which I think was also stupid. But even more than all that, Robb was totally wrong in killing Lord Karstark when it was clear he needed him and his troops/resources/etc. Ned would have taught him DUTY over personal morals/honor etc. EVERYONE around Robb told him- if you do this, we will lose the war... They will leave, abandon us, and you need him - keep him as a hostage. He does his own thing.... sort of like Ned in a way. Their strict adherence to honor gets them killed - BUT- their duty was not over, they had family and people and lands to protect, Duty to that and them comes above personal honor code. (As Ned clearly agreed with by assuming Jon Snow's care, and the shame that came with it and the projected hit to his honor, in order to fulfill his "duty" to his sister.... which will always come first to those with the most honor.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 He probably should have kept him hostage, but I disagree with the notions of giving Rickard a pat on the back or promise to never do it again and all is well... If the King's vassals can get away with blatantly defying orders and murder then there is no reason for him to be respected or followed. I think Rickard lost his senses knowing that two sons are dead and that his third may very well follow. A grieving father is more emotional than rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 He probably should have kept him hostage, but I disagree with the notions of giving Rickard a pat on the back or promise to never do it again and all is well... If the King's vassals can get away with blatantly defying orders and murder then there is no reason for him to be respected or followed. I think Rickard lost his senses knowing that two sons are dead and that his third may very well follow. A grieving father is more emotional than rational. Put him in a prison cell adjacent to his mother, who should have been in one. Ofcourse, if she had not released Jaime, Karstark would never have done what he did. Still though, going back to the books, if there is one thing that GRRM seemed to rush, it was the downfall of Robb Stark. The Blackwater and the emergence of an all powerful Tyrell - Lannister alliance and Robb marrying some rediculous camp follower and losing the strategic alliance stonghold of the Twins as well as 3500 men of the Freys was astonishing. Then Cat released Jaime and Karstark went balistic, which led to his death and the loss of over 2500 Karstark men. To think, this was all before the Red Wedding. You could tell Robb was screwed and something worse was coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I don't see the issue Karstark lost 2 sons has a third in captivity then cat let's jaime go and the war is lost with Stannis losing on the bw and the freys abandoning Robb so Karstark went for his vengeance which was also treason so Robb deheaded Karstark. This pissed off the Karstark men who run hoping to get back north or find the kingslayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Just to make my own feelings clear- I certainly didn't mean to suggest that Lord Karstark deserved a slap on the wrist or less- I COMPLETELY Agree that if , as we say where I'm from, "this f@($(ing guy" can get away with doing what he wants and completely defying the King, (insulting the King's mom while he is at it, and making a huge problem down the road to boot...) anyone can assume they can do the same. In the show, they make it seem like he really didn't think he'd get in trouble. He faced death fairly admirably, but seemed to me that he was absolutely surprised to actually receive the punishment. I want to also state that I think Catelyn was totally wrong in her actions and I would have never let that happen. I disagree with some of Robb's other strategies too, as much as I like him, but while I understand you don't want to go around punishing your mother, you have to assume it not only ruined the trust of Karstark and the other higher lords/advisers around Robb, but the troops too... It's not like they are all following The Great Ned Stark to begin with, most of the soldiers would be older and more experienced than Robb to begin with. When he lets that stuff happen, it starts to foment distrust, displeasure, and dissension. None of which are acceptable in the battlefield, let alone when the stakes are as high as they were. This goes to another point of mine.... was Robb really trying to win the war? Not only does he lose the Karstark support, but the Freys with the wedding etc..... which leads to their ancient adversary/friends the Boltons committing the ultimate sins... if only Robb acted like a General of the Army trying to win the war -- like Dwight D. Eisenhower in the European Theatre of Operations.... rather than trying to be The Young Wolf King , he'd be alive and either busy looting the gold of Casterly Rock right now, in Kings Landing resetting the Westeros power structure like his Dad once did, or even back home, enjoying some peace and prosperity with a new Northern kingdom to maintain. But he had to commit one stupid thing after another, which basically meant he won all the battles yet lost the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoke317 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think it's very realistic. We have to remember, that Robb was a teenager thrust into a position of leadership that he wasn't ready for. And his most trusted advisor (Cat) made the most egregious mistakes out of all the characters in the books (seizing Tyrion with her husband and daughters surrounded by enemies & freeing Jamie). Both decisions played major roles in the near extinction of the Starks. But even his fool of a mother told him they would desert. And how could he stop them? Fight his own army? He was destined to fail after his multiple mistakes. He unlike his brother Jon, who had a chance to be groomed for command in the watch, was thrown into the fire and his mother poured the gasoline on it. He made poor choice after poor choice and it cost him his life. Speaking of his execution of Lord Karstark, didn't he take multiple swings to do the deed. Jon only took one with Slynt. Those two scenes spoke volumes to me about who the real Stark is, of the two, even if Jon is a Targ. Robb was more Tully than Stark. I just never felt as much love for Robb as I did for Jon. Now the two together would have been a dynamic duo. Sorry to stray so far off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I think a lot of people are missing the point of the OP. In the books, Rickard sends his men away to hunt for Jaime before he is arrested by Robb. So Robb can't really get them back. In the show, Robb just lets them leave despite being warned it would happen, which is stupid. He could have had them surrounded or put in chains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Honestly I think Robbs fall is much more a product of circumstance than it is his own decisions, in the book after all Cat is the much more important character and I think her choices are the big ones(taking Tyrion, letting Jamie go). As the OP points out if Robb lets Rickard get away with murder, treason and personal insults he greatly weakens his standing with his other Bannermen. This was always a big issue simply because of his age, even if he's effective on the field of battle he doesn't have the same respect that his father did, part of the reason he pretty much has to accept the title of King of the North when his bannerman suggest it. He's basically put into an unwinnable position where he's going to be weakened no matter what he does. We see after that of course that Robb has every reason to worry about loyalty of his bannermen as the situation with the war looks increasingly grim with Stannis defeated and the Lannister's/Tyrell's having a vastly larger army. Ultimately that's the real reason why the Red Wedding happens, its not the slight to Walder Frey that's the main motivation but rather being on the winning side of the war. Roose suffers no such slight and he still turns against the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 The rub here is that Catelyn committed treason and Robb did not punish her accordingly. Then he attempts to act like a strong and just leader, and of course it doesn't fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Its not exactly the same of course as Cat doesn't commit murder and doesn't openly question/insult Robb but that does again put him in a no win position that weakens him. He's obviously not capable of killing his own mother(especially as he would have to do it personally) but even if he were kinslaying like that is likely to have an even worse effect on his support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordDireStark Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Under normal circumstances Robb could've been a strong battle commander. The problem was he was young which accounted for mistake #1 marrying Talisa and scorning Walder Frey. The second was Catelyn,knowing that she would release Jaime for Sansa and Arya,considering the Tully words, Family,Duty,Honor. And the third was he had commanders,who were older with more experience that thought their way was better. So he really didn't have anyone he felt he could really listen to, so he listened to his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 The rub here is that Catelyn committed treason and Robb did not punish her accordingly. Then he attempts to act like a strong and just leader, and of course it doesn't fly. No king could properly punish their own mother in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I doubt Stannis would hesitate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Well his mother died of shipwreck but if she was still alive and released a prisoner no way he chops her head off unless he was planing on losing the war and was just having fun. If you kill your mother all that support you did have is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TepidHands Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Kind of like burning your daughter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Kind of like burning your daughter... Yeah but burning Shireen made it no longer a bit snowy so you know priorities do you want a daughter or to be warm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Walker Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Speaking of his execution of Lord Karstark, didn't he take multiple swings to do the deed. Jon only took one with Slynt. Those two scenes spoke volumes to me about who the real Stark is, of the two, even if Jon is a Targ. Hmm.. NO. It was Theon beheading Rodrik that required multiple swings. Ned and Jon had Valyrian swords, Robb didn't and he still needed only one swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 About Stannis burning Shireen, don't forget HE HASN'T YET - it was a show-only thing , and I don't care what D&D said in the HBO Inside the Episode thing, I don't believe GRRM is doing it in the books. I will publicly say, "I was wrong, I am sorry" if and when it happens but I think they said it on purpose after the ep BECAUSE they knew it wasn't going down that way in the REAL Storyline. And Stannis wouldn't behead his mom... c'mon... "For the sake of the mother who bore us, I will give you another chance to stop this battle. I'll even give you your seat in the council, AND name you my heir....." he obviously wasn't exactly spiting his Mama there. Stannis the Mannis might have some softee-side in that icy-cold-heart-of-burning-Rhlorio fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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