Nymeria's pack Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Renly definitely. He understood politics better than the other two combined. Let Tarly take care of most of the military issues. Big upside of not burning people alive or drinking and whoring himself to death! :agree: well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 People like Tarly may hate all the bullshit about tourneys, and others like the Florents maybe scared of the Tyrells. We just dont know if the lords of the Reach like Renly or not. And some lords sent residuals force compared to their host, like the Hightowers. And part of Renly's force come from the Stormlands that would probably 30k bannermen+ Tyrells that could have like 60k men on the field. 30k+60k=90k, and that would be a realistic size to Renly's host. Where do we get the idea that Tarly hated the tourneys? A tournament is spectacle where individuals show off and compete in their martial pursuits which goes with Tarly's interest. If they didn't like him many more would have stayed neutral or fought for the crown like how some houses did against Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully in Robert's Rebellion. Instead, you have people like Lady Oakheart supporting him despite the fact her youngest son is a member of Joffrey's kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 And finally you admit it's effective. And that you were wrong about Tarly. Though you tried your best to deny it, Renly was a charismatic and competent leader and his plan was a good one. Glad we got hereI said the plan was good all the time .Sometimes simple plans are more effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Where do we get the idea that Tarly hated the tourneys? A tournament is spectacle where individuals show off and compete in their martial pursuits which goes with Tarly's interest. If they didn't like him many more would have stayed neutral or fought for the crown like how some houses did against Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully in Robert's Rebellion. Instead, you have people like Lady Oakheart supporting him despite the fact her youngest son is a member of Joffrey's kingsguard.I said that I was wrong about Tarly before, but that does not change the fact that some Reachmen that support him may not like him. Supporting your liege is usually the safest option. If he wins he would like you and if he loses, you wont lose your titles and land because you were doing your duty. Add to that that Renly' s side looks to be the winning one, and not supporting him as a Tyrell bannermen is almost idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 In all honesty, I would say Renly. He had good intentions, yes, he was not the heir, but he was beloved and popular. Stannis lacks charisma and Robert was a terrible king, he was a warrior, a soldier. I'm not pro-Renly, but I really think he would rule well and wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I said that I was worng about Tarly before, but that does not change the fact that some Reachmen that support him may not like him. Supporting your liege is usually the safest option. If he wins he would like you and if he loses, you wont lose your titles and land because you were doing your duty. Add to that that Renly' s side looks to be the winning one, and not supporting him as a Tyrell bannermen is almost idiotic. Yet, seasoned lords like Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn (and Robert) had to fight against a number of their own bannermen during Robert's Rebellion as they stayed loyal to the crown. Were Hoster, Jon, and Robert just all utter morons that no one liked or respected? We aren't given any mention of any of the Stormlords or lords of the Reach not liking him. Thus, at worst that would be a minuscule number compared to those that did like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yet, seasoned lords like Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn (and Robert) had to fight against a number of their own bannermen during Robert's Rebellion as they stayed loyal to the crown. Were Hoster, Jon, and Robert just all utter morons that no one liked or respected? We aren't given any mention of any of the Stormlords or lords of the Reach not liking him. Thus, at worst that would be a minuscule number compared to those that did like him. Rebelling against its liege happend, but that does not mean that it was an intelligent move. And also Targaryen have been sitting in the IT for a longer period of time, and had more loyal people than a 16 year old dinasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 It's the contrary, Stannis would be a good hand to a compassionate and forgiving King. Kings are figureheads, popularity among their subjects is what they all should strive for, and Stannis doesn't have that, not the least bit. I'm sorry to quote the show but if Stannis/Renly/Whoever wants to be liked, he'd end up the most popular dead man in King's Landing. Being king is not solely about popularity. Being popular can help, but it can also hurt...see Aegon IV as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'm sorry to quote the show but if Stannis/Renly/Whoever wants to be liked, he'd end up the most popular dead man in King's Landing. Being king is not solely about popularity. Being popular can help, but it can also hurt...see Aegon IV as an example. Aegon's downfall all came from his excessive nature (like Robert), while Renly is specifically noted to be temperate in his pleasures. There is a considerable difference between the two. Besides, I think that line is shit, maintaining good relations with your vassals (aka being liked by them) is paramount. You need to be liked, yet firm, all the while remaining just, and Renly demonstrated all those qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainara S Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'm gonna skip the 20 pages of (undoubtedly interesting but 20 pages is 20 pages) debate and I'm gonna say I'm torn between Stannis and Renly. Actually, all three could be good if they got over their flaws (like every person...) Stannis needs a little more self-awareness and understanding of the very subjective/people-oriented aspect of ruling (and less Melisandre?), Robert needed to actually work on his flaws instead of just being aware of them (having a Master of Coin who isn't bent on bankrupting the kingdom would certainly have helped), and Renly needed more... experience, I guess? His most glaring flaw was being too self-assured, but he was what, 20 years old? So I guess my answer is Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brranstaark Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Renly then Robert and then Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Blade Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Renly had it easy all of his life. Doesn't have to take part in wars, gets SE which is not even his by right. One can only assume he didn't have to deal with his bannermen that much. Peaceful times and being the brother of the king, no bannerman would risk his displeasure. Also Renly's power came from the Tyrells, i don't remember the exact quote but i believe Loras convinced him to be king because he thought Renly was more apt than his brothers. If he didnt have tyrell He could've gone to war with his own men of SE just to be destroyed by Lannister and whoever the tyrells supported. Infact i think that Renly wouldn't have lasted much in the field after his bannermen realized his lack of knowledge when it comes to military tactics, they would've probably flocked their banners to Joffrey or Stannis but with the Tyrells on his side he wouldn't need to prove himself. Just give Tarly the vanguard and win all the battles with your obscenely large numbers. Also about Stannis' lack of plan.... what is he supposed to do? Dragonstone has too few men and9 his bannermen and not exactly powerful, he only has ships which is why he attacks blackwater bay and loses to Tyrion's wit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Renly had it easy all of his life. Doesn't have to take part in wars, gets SE which is not even his by right. One can only assume he didn't have to deal with his bannermen that much. Peaceful times and being the brother of the king, no bannerman would risk his displeasure. Also Renly's power came from the Tyrells, i don't remember the exact quote but i believe Loras convinced him to be king because he thought Renly was more apt than his brothers. If he didnt have tyrell He could've gone to war with his own men of SE just to be destroyed by Lannister and whoever the tyrells supported. Infact i think that Renly wouldn't have lasted much in the field after his bannermen realized his lack of knowledge when it comes to military tactics, they would've probably flocked their banners to Joffrey or Stannis but with the Tyrells on his side he wouldn't need to prove himself. Just give Tarly the vanguard and win all the battles with your obscenely large numbers. Also about Stannis' lack of plan.... what is he supposed to do? Dragonstone has too few men and9 his bannermen and not exactly powerful, he only has ships which is why he attacks blackwater bay and loses to Tyrion's wit. you need to read the books instead of Watching show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Pfff, they all have big flaws imo... Robert loves to stick his head in the sand with his hunting, whoring and drinking. Being able to forgive is one thing, but from the very beginning it seems he cannot deliver justice impartially, and later because he doesn't like to make difficult decisions. He does know right from wrong, but he dislikes the responsiblity that comes with it. And while he has the stamina to fight wars physically, not really mentally. Stannis is the opposite of that. The law is the law is the law ... Very inflexible and resentful. He does have the ability to be creative with the law, without bending the law. But his inflexibility is the main reason why he alienates any possibly military ally in aCoK. And his social skills are abominal. He does seem to get better at the not-alienating allies in the North though. Renly - "Look at me! Look at me!" While his appetites aren't as glutonous as Robert's, he's also very light-hearted, and while he may be politically most savvy over his brothers, he was also basically trolling Stannis - so less savvy, no matter how amusing it was. At the time of CoK, I'd say Renly, but by the time of the Northern arc I'd say Stannis, because somehow he seems to have picked up on subtlety way better. He gets better in using symbolism and imagery to look the king part, rather than just "But I am the rightful king," and displays a type of leniency that is absent before the Blackwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a Spider from Mars Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Renly he has been in company of elite players if the GoT. Seems to be a nice guy, he kept Brienne by his side I always thought that was very nice of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Renly he has been in company of elite players if the GoT. Seems to be a nice guy, he kept Brienne by his side I always thought that was very nice of him.Renly was not a nice guy. The jokes that he made about his niece were pretty mean. But he was a more likabke character than most thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Renly was not a nice guy. They jokes that he made about his niece were pretty mean. But he was a more likabke character than most thou. And he was starving 500k people as he and his army feast and fight on the way to KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 And he was starving 500k people as he and his army feast and fight on the way to KL. Even nice guys don't feed enemy garrisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Even nice guys don't feed enemy garrisons. Nice guys are not supposed to cause death of innocents via starvation. It's smart but not nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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