R+L=J v.154

[SFDanny]

The bolded part is not correct.  Maegor tried to end the Faith Uprising by ordering that the Faith Militant be disbanded, but it didn't work.  Maegor died (or was assassinated) and Jaehaerys the Conciliator came to the throne.  He is called the Conciliator because he ended the Faith Uprising and made peace.  He also implemented the first unified system of laws for the 7 kingdoms.  The theory is that one of the new laws he implemented, in order to appease the Faith, was a ban on polygamy.  

 

This makes a lot of senses, because a "Conciliator" is someone who makes compromises.  There were two things that really bothered the Faith:  incest and polygamy.  Jaehaerys could not outlaw incest because (1) it would invalidate his own marriage, and (2) it would lead to the dilution of the dragon-riding blood.  But he could outlaw polygamy, because the last (really, only the second) polygamist was dead.  Add that to the fact that from the reign of Jaehaerys going forward, there were no known examples of Targaryen polygamy, and the logical conclusion is that the compromise Jaehaerys gave to the Faith was to expressly outlaw polygamy. 

 

Twinslayer, Meagor tried to outlaw the Faith Militant through law and war. He was extremely successful in killing lots of religious zealots and his law stood until Cersei stupidly revoked it. You are right that it was left to Jaehaerys to get the High Septon to formally agree to this huge defeat for the Faith's power along with another considerable concession regarding the reach of Targaryen law to include the septons and septas. In return Jaehaerys pledged the crown would "always protect and defend" the Faith. Nothing in there about the Targaryens allowing the Faith to restrict Targaryen practices. This is confirmed by both the continued practice of brother/sister marriage, and by the expression of people as late as Ser Jorah Mormont that Daenerys could have a polygamous marriage. So, I just don't see Jaehaerys being called the "Conciliator" as evidence of a ban on Targaryen polygamy. Jaehaerys chose peaceful methods to resolve disputes, but it was the outcome of the religious wars that set the stage for the agreement. The Faith lost. Or so that's how I see it.

[RumHam]

 

Twinslayer, Meagor tried to outlaw the Faith Militant through law and war. He was extremely successful in killing lots of religious zealots and his law stood until Cersei stupidly revoked it. You are right that it was left to Jaehaerys to get the High Septon to formally agree to this huge defeat for the Faith's power along with another considerable concession regarding the reach of Targaryen law to include the septons and septas. In return Jaehaerys pledged the crown would "always protect and defend" the Faith. Nothing in there about the Targaryens allowing the Faith to restrict Targaryen practices. This is confirmed by both the continued practice of brother/sister marriage, and by the expression of people as late as Ser Jorah Mormont that Daenerys could have a polygamous marriage. So, I just don't see Jaehaerys being called the "Conciliator" as evidence of a ban on Targaryen polygamy. Jaehaerys chose peaceful methods to resolve disputes, but it was the outcome of the religious wars that set the stage for the agreement. The Faith lost. Or so that's how I see it.

 

I agree with most of what you said, but the Jorah example doesn't prove anything. Of course Daenerys could have polygamous marriages. She is, at least in the minds of her supporters, a ruling monarch. She's also not even in Westeros when Jorah suggests this. 

 

I think that if polygamy was made illegal it was likely when Jaehaerys unified the code of laws, rather than part of some compromise with the faith. Edit: Which isn't to say that pressure from the faith wasn't a large factor in the decision.

[Alia of the knife]

Actually I think this is just the way grrm gave us more information on these dead people.
You know, just to confuse us.
You guys wonder if elia did something wrong (like cheating with arthur) so rhaegar left her?
Here you go, she is good.
You guys wonder if elia was dumb or silly to let rhaegar did all this?
Here you go, she has wisdom.
Then we got even more confused and start to wonder if there were more game of thrones and this is what grrm wanted to see. :)

 

:wideeyed:

[Ygrain]

Ah, I see you have had fun overnight.

 

Perhaps to adress the basic question: why do I personally think that Rhaegar married Lyanna?

 

1) characterisation.

We are told repeatedly that if a honourable man wants to bed a woman, he should marry her. Rhaegar was honourable, not marrying Lyanna would be out of character for him.

 

2) narrative

Doing the right honourable thing usually gets everyone in terrible shit in GRRMth (Ned, Robb and Jeyne), so it fits thematically.

[purple-eyes]

Ah, I see you have had fun overnight.
 
Perhaps to adress the basic question: why do I personally think that Rhaegar married Lyanna?
 
1) characterisation.
We are told repeatedly that if a honourable man wants to bed a woman, he should marry her. Rhaegar was honourable, not marrying Lyanna would be out of character for him.
 
2) narrative
Doing the right honourable thing usually gets everyone in terrible shit in GRRMth (Ned, Robb and Jeyne), so it fits thematically.

I thought a honorable man should be faithful to his lady wife as well. It also seems strange for a honorable man to run off with another woman from his family.
You either give rhaegar a special pass for his cheating, or you have a slightly different definition of " honorable"?

Oh, you call " elope with another woman while you were already married with two very young children" a right honorable thing?
Nice. Westeros husbands would thank you for setting this nice example.

And, please do not compare rhaegar with robb. Robb is way younger than him and he is not a married guy with two children.

[SFDanny]

I thought a honorable man should be faithful to his lady wife as well. It also seems strange for a honorable man to run off with another woman from his family.
You either give rhaegar a special pass for his cheating, or you have a slightly different definition of " honorable"?

Oh, you call " elope with another woman while you were already married with two very young children" a right honorable thing?
Nice. Westeros husbands would thank you for setting this nice example.

And, please do not compare rhaegar with robb. Robb is way younger than him and he is not a married guy with two children.

 

Robb was a king who knew his alliance, and therefore the lives of his men, depended on him being faithful to his promise to marry a Frey bride. He made his choice based on a woman he hardly knew, and her need for honor. The honor of knowing he took her maidenhead and would pay for it with marriage. I don't know what was the right choice for Robb to make, but we know a lot more about why Robb did what he did than why Rhaegar did what he did, so I agree it is hard to compare the two.

 

Rhaegar could be the rapist of Robert's angry nightmares, come to steal and abuse his fair Lyanna. Rhaegar could be a prophecy obsessed prince who cared nothing about the people he used to fulfill his dreams of renewed Targaryen power triumphant over a mythic enemy no one else sees. Rhaegar could be Martin's cardboard cutout platinum blonde version of Romeo who meets his Juliet and the consequences be damned. Rhaegar could also be the hero of Daenerys's dream who sweeps down upon and saves a fair damsel condemn to wed a man she hates. Pick any of these or make up new ones or mix them together and you could be right. But the truth is we know very little for certain about Rhaegar's motives while we know something about why Robb was motivated to do what he did. So, in that we agree. One should not compare what we don't know with what we do, expecting them to be the same.

 

I, of course, have my own version of what I think Martin is trying to tell us about who Rhaegar was and what were his motives. I think this "kidnapping" starts as a rescue. I think Rhaegar is attracted to this wild northern girl from what he knows of her at Harrenhal, and I think he owes her a debt for his use of her in crowning her his Queen of Love and Beauty at that tourney. I think a chance meeting leads to a rescue from marrying Robert, and I think that grows into love and Rhaegar's belief that Lyanna will be the mother of his "third head of the dragon." All of this is based on tidbits and hints Martin drops in the story, and being the master storyteller he is, he hasn't given us the insights into Rhaegar's head that he does with other characters. So, if you think Rhaegar was just an old lecherous entitled prince who seduces a clueless young girl despite his duty to his wife and children and with little care for the consequence, then have at it. Just know there are many ways to read this tale.

[Alia of the knife]

We actually also know very little of Lyanna.

All are told is that she questions Roberts fidelity, and my reading of it at least, is there may have been some disappointment or disillusionment with that knowledge, which might indicate that she wasn't indifferent to Robert.

If she runs from a marriage, she runs because she didn't want to marry ANYONE, and Rhaegar rescuing, with her staying overnight in his company, ruins that because those actions have clear, social implications on her honor.

Rhaegar saving Lyanna from an unwanted marriage is problematic not just from the standpoint that GRRM indicated that historically people just didn't run from such arrangements because it was all they knew, but inverse, Rhaegar sets a dangerous social precedent that he, nor his parents sought to run from.


The WB, until we get something textual, now alludes to the fact that their momentous meeting was not planned on either party's part.

So, whatever happened seems to be in the moment, which would also account for what sounds like an armed confrontation.

[purple-eyes]

Robb was a king who knew his alliance, and therefore the lives of his men, depended on him being faithful to his promise to marry a Frey bride. He made his choice based on a woman he hardly knew, and her need for honor. The honor of knowing he took her maidenhead and would pay for it with marriage. I don't know what was the right choice for Robb to make, but we know a lot more about why Robb did what he did than why Rhaegar did what he did, so I agree it is hard to compare the two.
 
Rhaegar could be the rapist of Robert's angry nightmares, come to steal and abuse his fair Lyanna. Rhaegar could be a prophecy obsessed prince who cared nothing about the people he used to fulfill his dreams of renewed Targaryen power triumphant over a mythic enemy no one else sees. Rhaegar could be Martin's cardboard cutout platinum blonde version of Romeo who meets his Juliet and the consequences be damned. Rhaegar could also be the hero of Daenerys's dream who sweeps down upon and saves a fair damsel condemn to wed a man she hates. Pick any of these or make up new ones or mix them together and you could be right. But the truth is we know very little for certain about Rhaegar's motives while we know something about why Robb was motivated to do what he did. So, in that we agree. One should not compare what we don't know with what we do, expecting them to be the same.
 
I, of course, have my own version of what I think Martin is trying to tell us about who Rhaegar was and what were his motives. I think this "kidnapping" starts as a rescue. I think Rhaegar is attracted to this wild northern girl from what he knows of her at Harrenhal, and I think he owes her a debt for his use of her in crowning her his Queen of Love and Beauty at that tourney. I think a chance meeting leads to a rescue from marrying Robert, and I think that grows into love and Rhaegar's belief that Lyanna will be the mother of his "third head of the dragon." All of this is based on tidbits and hints Martin drops in the story, and being the master storyteller he is, he hasn't given us the insights into Rhaegar's head that he does with other characters. So, if you think Rhaegar was just an old lecherous entitled prince who seduces a clueless young girl despite his duty to his wife and children and with little care for the consequence, then have at it. Just know there are many ways to read this tale.

I agree whe did not know what he thought and we are short of a lot details.
But no matter how we imagine about rhaegar's minds and motivations, here are three facts which already happened:
1. He left his wife and two very young children (for whatever reason you can imagine).
2. He had sex with another younger woman and had a child from her (for whatever reason you can imagine), This woman is fiancée of another man for a long time.
3. He was missing for the most part of rebellion war (for what ever reason again)

Thses three things happened already and no matter what motivations he had or how this whole thing happened, he did something unhonorable.
Either he wanted to save the world using his kid, or he fell in true love of his whole life, or he did heroic deed to rescue a unhappy woman, or he organized this thing as a political move against his father, he did something unhonorable. Which is: left his family and had sex with another's man's fiancée secretly in the middle of nowhere.
Unhonorable is unhonorable, even you did it for something else which is very honorable like saving the world, you still did something unhonorable, one can not cancel another.

Bloodraven killed that blackfyre guy unhonorably for the peace of his country, but he was still sentenced to death or join NW. Made a mistake to prevent a mistake, this is good, but mistake is still mistake.

The only way to make rhaegar complete flawless, innocent and honorable is that, Elia and he already got divorced before he left DS. He was single before he did something with lyanna.
Then we can get a silver-haired Romeo and a purple-eyed Beren.
Otherwise he is still a soiled hero. A hero, but also soiled.

Of course if you wanted to play the polygamy card and then yes, he is blameless.
We had plenty of kings in our history who can marry many wives and it was a very normal thing for them to love a new woman because it is something as natural as the water and air for him. All the noble girls of age would be summoned in front of the court for him to freely choose his different wives.

[Ser Creighton]

We actually also know very little of Lyanna.

All are told is that she questions Roberts fidelity, and my reading of it at least, is there may have been some disappointment or disillusionment with that knowledge, which might indicate that she wasn't indifferent to Robert.

If she runs from a marriage, she runs because she didn't want to marry ANYONE, and Rhaegar rescuing, with her staying overnight in his company, ruins that because those actions have clear, social implications on her honor.

Rhaegar saving Lyanna from an unwanted marriage is problematic not just from the standpoint that GRRM indicated that historically people just didn't run from such arrangements because it was all they knew, but inverse, Rhaegar sets a dangerous social precedent that he, nor his parents sought to run from.


The WB, until we get something textual, now alludes to the fact that their momentous meeting was not planned on either party's part.

So, whatever happened seems to be in the moment, which would also account for what sounds like an armed confrontation.

Come on the person who was really disillusioned was Ned. Though I do believe an armed conflict occurred when Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar and his KG.

 

You know sometimes I look for hints about Lyanna and Arya, the wooden swords, Gendry and Robert, runaways? Perhaps, but was it the marriage that made Lyanna run, was she kidnapped or could she have been running from something else? Disguise? Arya and Lyanna, if you believe she is the KOTLT which you do. She is a problem as we get less about her than we do about Rhaegar. Ned seemed to indicate Wolfs blood with temper, but it could be passion or just giving in to ones emotions quickly, leaping before you look.

[Mithras]

I agree whe did not know what he thought and we are short of a lot details.
But no matter how we imagine about rhaegar's minds and motivations, here are three facts which already happened:
1. He left his wife and two very young children (for whatever reason you can imagine).
2. He had sex with another younger woman and had a child from her (for whatever reason you can imagine), This woman is fiancée of another man for a long time.
3. He was missing for the most part of rebellion war (for what ever reason again)

Thses three things happened already and no matter what motivations he had or how this whole thing happened, he did something unhonorable.

 

1. Jaime killed the king he was sworn to protect (for whatever reason).

 

This happened already and no matter what motivations he had or how this whole thing happened, he did something dishonorable.

 

Is that the way it is?

[purple-eyes]

1. Jaime killed the king he was sworn to protect (for whatever reason).
 
This happened already and no matter what motivations he had or how this whole thing happened, he did something dishonorable.
 
Is that the way it is?

Yes, that is why he was called kingslayer. He did one unhonorable thing to prevent a bigger tragedy. This is noble and brave and I love him for it. But this also stained his honor for sure.
Tyrion killed his father. He had a lot of reasons for that and many readers love him a lot. But he still killed his father and this is not an honorable thing to do.

[purple-eyes]

Oh yeah, another way to whitewash rhaegar is that lyanna abducted him using her great sword and riding skill and then took him to TOJ and raped him many times. (Woman can rape man for sure.) After she got pregnant she was finally satisfied and released him back to his duties.
Then we have a 100% innocent rhaegar right here.
That is why ned always thought positive about rhaegar. He is the victim.
Seriously, who does not want the most beautiful man's baby?
If there was some sort of sperm bank in westeros, I bet rhaegar's is the most popular one.

[Mithras]

Oh yeah, another way to whitewash rhaegar is that lyanna abducted him using her great sword and riding skill and then took him to TOJ and raped him many times. (Woman can rape man for sure.) After she got pregnant she was finally satisfied and released him back to his duties.
Then we have a 100% innocent rhaegar right here.
Seriously, who does not want the most beautiful man's baby?
If there was some sort of sperm bank in westeros, I bet rhaegar's is the most popular one.

 

Look, I hate Rhaegar for being a coward and not rising in rebellion against Aerys (until we get additional information) but this is ridiculous.

[purple-eyes]

Look, I hate Rhaegar for being a coward and not rising in rebellion against Aerys (until we get additional information) but this is ridiculous.

I know. This is mainly Just for entertaining.
But you can not deny this can happen. Maybe lyanna is the wenda the white fawn.
She was lady of winterfell at home and she was wenda during trip.
She saw the most beautiful man right there then she took him to have sex and a dragon baby with him.
Sounds fantastic.
Check rhaegar's body to see if there was some burning marks.

[Alia of the knife]

Come on the person who was really disillusioned was Ned. Though I do believe an armed conflict occurred when Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar and his KG.

 

You know sometimes I look for hints about Lyanna and Arya, the wooden swords, Gendry and Robert, runaways? Perhaps, but was it the marriage that made Lyanna run, was she kidnapped or could she have been running from something else? Disguise? Arya and Lyanna, if you believe she is the KOTLT which you do. She is a problem as we get less about her than we do about Rhaegar. Ned seemed to indicate Wolfs blood with temper, but it could be passion or just giving in to ones emotions quickly, leaping before you look.

 

 

Oh I definitely do, if you examine Arya very carefully, and the fight between Joff and Arya comes to mind, I think you can see shadows of Lyanna beyond their individual conditioning, which is vastly different as I don't think Arya will ever be as gentle in nature as perhaps Lyanna, (that is when Lyanna was in a good mood).

 

Also, another difference is despite Aryas natural wildness, she actually has a mother and glamorous sister who are influences, so in some ways, Arya was up until the violence to her family, likely more gently raised than Lyanna who probably only had Nan.

 

I also go back to why Ned wanted Arya to properly trained with a sword, because I don't think he was doing just pacify Arya. I think he meant it whereas Rickard did not allow Lyanna to carry a sword, which actually might have been quite natural for northern women if they chose.

[SFDanny]

We actually also know very little of Lyanna.

All are told is that she questions Roberts fidelity, and my reading of it at least, is there may have been some disappointment or disillusionment with that knowledge, which might indicate that she wasn't indifferent to Robert.

If she runs from a marriage, she runs because she didn't want to marry ANYONE, and Rhaegar rescuing, with her staying overnight in his company, ruins that because those actions have clear, social implications on her honor.

Rhaegar saving Lyanna from an unwanted marriage is problematic not just from the standpoint that GRRM indicated that historically people just didn't run from such arrangements because it was all they knew, but inverse, Rhaegar sets a dangerous social precedent that he, nor his parents sought to run from.


The WB, until we get something textual, now alludes to the fact that their momentous meeting was not planned on either party's part.

So, whatever happened seems to be in the moment, which would also account for what sounds like an armed confrontation.

 

Good post, Alia. I have to say the part about "staying overnight in his company" made me laugh. Not that what you say may well true, but it made me think of - and here is were I betray my age with a ancient cultural reference - some dialogue in "Oklahoma." The part where Ado Annie explains how the "Peddler Man" proposed to her. She explains that he invited her on a trip to Claremont and seeing as that was only possible with a overnight stay he had to mean marriage. Anyway, it made me think of that old scene and laugh, so thank you.

 

I'm sure given real world medieval thinking, your claim about the effect of Lyanna staying with Rhaegar's party overnight might be true for Westeros as well, but it does raise some interesting questions. Such as who was Lyanna traveling with when she meets Rhaegar? I've always assumed she was guarded by Winterfell men in order to ensure her safety on the road, but your point raises the idea there might have been at least one female companion along with her on the trip. A generation before equivalent to Septa Mordane? Given that Septa Mordane's employment was likely due to the influence of Catelyn and her belief in the new gods, would Lyanna's equivalent for the septa be an elder family servant? Some one like Old Nan? Just throwing ideas out here, but it would be interesting to find out Lyanna's companion, if she had one, was still alive. 

 

Or on the other hand, we often assume that Rhaegar's party is made up of male companions. Perhaps it included women, such as Ashara? Her reputation would not be damaged by traveling with her brother. Do you think the inclusion of Ashara as part of Rhaegar's party would impact the effect of taking Lyanna into hiding? Just throwing ideas out for your thoughts.

 

I do agree we know little of Lyanna's thinking, and admit to building theories upon the tidbits we do know from Ned and other sources. We have little choice until we get more information. Thanks for the post.

[SFDanny]

I agree whe did not know what he thought and we are short of a lot details.
But no matter how we imagine about rhaegar's minds and motivations, here are three facts which already happened:
1. He left his wife and two very young children (for whatever reason you can imagine).
2. He had sex with another younger woman and had a child from her (for whatever reason you can imagine), This woman is fiancée of another man for a long time.
3. He was missing for the most part of rebellion war (for what ever reason again)

 

Relative to point one, does it matter if he leaves his wife and children with her knowledge this could happen? We know from Daenerys's vision that Rhaegar tells Elia there must be one more because "the dragon has three heads" and we know from Jon Connington's memories that Elia could have no more children. It's not clear whether this means she can't have children without it threatening her life, or that she is infertile after Aegon's birth. Either way it would be interesting to hear where the conversation goes when Dany's vision cuts off. Is Elia aware, as seems likely from their conversation, with Rhaegar's view of prophecy concerning their children. Does she agree with him that the prophecy is important, or is it something she thinks is only in Rhaegar's mind? If she agrees there must be one more child by Rhaegar, what does she think of another woman giving birth to that child? Does she want to sacrifice herself for the sake of giving birth to Rhaegar's third child? Or does she know she can't do so even if it means risking her life? On and on the questions go, and we know none of the answers to how the conversation may have gone or how the maesters's diagnosis effects their marriage.

 

Here it also should be said we have nothing to suggest Rhaegar moved to set Elia aside in favor of a fertile wife. He doesn't seem to be Maegor in his pursuit of offspring.

 

Regarding item two, we really don't know that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna. I believe that was the case, but we don't know it for sure. We also don't know either Elia's or Lyanna's thinking about Rhaegar fathering another child than the two he has with Elia. I see a lot of judgements that Elia must have thought this or that, and how Lyanna must have been hypocritical in her actions, but the text, understandably, hasn't reveled any information that a third child even exists, much less about Rheagar's, Elia's, or Lyanna's thinking on the subject.

 

When looking at item three, it is important to consider that Rhaegar likely had reason to hide from not only the Starks and the Baratheons, but also his father and the Martells. I know everyone seems to think Rhaegar was somehow all powerful and could order the world the way he wanted, but the reality is that he had few cards to play, and hiding until his father decided he needed him more than he needed to punish him may have been one of the few options open without risking not only himself, but Lyanna as well.

 

Not to "whitewash" Rhaegar, but I think your points aren't quite as clear cut as you seem to think.

[purple-eyes]

 

Relative to point one, does it matter if he leaves his wife and children with her knowledge this could happen? We know from Daenerys's vision that Rhaegar tells Elia there must be one more because "the dragon has three heads" and we know from Jon Connington's memories that Elia could have no more children. It's not clear whether this means she can't have children without it threatening her life, or that she is infertile after Aegon's birth. Either way it would be interesting to hear where the conversation goes when Dany's vision cuts off. Is Elia aware, as seems likely from their conversation, with Rhaegar's view of prophecy concerning their children. Does she agree with him that the prophecy is important, or is it something she thinks is only in Rhaegar's mind? If she agrees there must be one more child by Rhaegar, what does she think of another woman giving birth to that child? Does she want to sacrifice herself for the sake of giving birth to Rhaegar's third child? Or does she know she can't do so even if it means risking her life? On and on the questions go, and we know none of the answers to how the conversation may have gone or how the maesters's diagnosis effects their marriage.

 

Here it also should be said we have nothing to suggest Rhaegar moved to set Elia aside in favor of a fertile wife. He doesn't seem to be Maegor in his pursuit of offspring.

 

Regarding item two, we really don't know that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna. I believe that was the case, but we don't know it for sure. We also don't know either Elia's or Lyanna's thinking about Rhaegar fathering another child than the two he has with Elia. I see a lot of judgements that Elia must have thought this or that, and how Lyanna must have been hypocritical in her actions, but the text, understandably, hasn't reveled any information that a third child even exists, much less about Rheagar's, Elia's, or Lyanna's thinking on the subject.

 

When looking at item three, it is important to consider that Rhaegar likely had reason to hide from not only the Starks and the Baratheons, but also his father and the Martells. I know everyone seems to think Rhaegar was somehow all powerful and could order the world the way he wanted, but the reality is that he had few cards to play, and hiding until his father decided he needed him more than he needed to punish him may have been one of the few options open without risking not only himself, but Lyanna as well.

 

Not to "whitewash" Rhaegar, but I think your points aren't quite as clear cut as you seem to think.

 

1. I knew Elia may know about everything and she also knew she can not give one more child to Rhaegar. She likely agreed with Rhaegar and even provided her help for his move (TOJ of Dorne and Ashara of her people). However, this is not something happy for her to do. She did it because she did not have choice. this is not because she feels this is a noble and happy thing for her. She felt painful to do this. I think this is undeniable. So no matter if Elia approved,  it is not a honorable thing due to its nature. 

 

2. Yes, I just assume R+L=J here. So they must have sex to have a child. If RLJ is wrong, then I agree my points were not true. 

 

3. I agree Rhaegar is missing from the war to wait for the best benefits and opportunity for himself and Lyanna. such as to avoid his father's wrath and other people's wrath. However, If he showed up earlier, he would surely put himself and Lyanna into danger, but the war would be at least paused or get somehow better. Not so many people would die in this confusing way. He is sort of coward and selfish here. He only wanted to make sure he got the third child. 

[YunoGasai]

 

1. I knew Elia may know about everything and she also knew she can not give one more child to Rhaegar. She likely agreed with Rhaegar and even provided her help for his move (TOJ of Dorne and Ashara of her people). However, this is not something happy for her to do. She did it because she did not have choice. this is not because she feels this is a noble and happy thing for her. She felt painful to do this. I think this is undeniable. So no matter if Elia approved,  it is not a honorable thing due to its nature. 

 

2. Yes, I just assume R+L=J here. So they must have sex to have a child. If RLJ is wrong, then I agree my points were not true. 

 

3. I agree Rhaegar is missing from the war to wait for the best benefits and opportunity for himself and Lyanna. such as to avoid his father's wrath and other people's wrath. However, If he showed up earlier, he would surely put himself and Lyanna into danger, but the war would be at least paused or get somehow better. Not so many people would die in this confusing way. He is sort of coward and selfish here. He only wanted to make sure he got the third child. 

waaaa. your theory is a huge possibility. I just hope that Rhaegar is NOT a man who would let his wife be as miserable as his mother. I mean Rhaegar must have love Rhaella right? What Aerys had done to his sister-wife was cruel and i think Rhaegar did thought of what the consequences will be before eloping with Lyanna.

 

 

sorry for my epic-fail typos.

[purple-eyes]

waaaa. your theory is a huge possibility. I just hope that Rhaegar is a man who would let his wife be as miserable as his mother. I mean Rhaegar must have love Rhaella right? What Aerys had done to his sister-wife was cruel and i think Rhaegar did thought of what the consequences will be before eloping with Lyanna.

 

Sorry I did not understand you.

Rheagr may love or may not love his mother. I am not sure about it.

But he did not do much to prevent his mother from being raped though. Maybe he did not know about it. 

And what do you mean by the last sentence?

Rhaegar thought about the consequences of eloping but underestimated the madness of his father?