A+J=T v.7

[Darkstream]

 
I know you think I am a bit of an arrogant guy, and I respect you for coming out and saying so. You have suggested in the past that I am condescending as well. Maybe I am -- when debating precise analytical reasoning, putting one's thoughts using limited space and reacting to other's positions (which sometimes seems way off-base to me) can came across that way. I really just try to lay out my arguments as clearly and succinctly as I can. I try to be honest. While honesty is not an excuse for being rude or making a personal attack on an individual, I don't think I have crossed that line.

Admittedly, I am only familiar with what you have put forth in this thread alone, but I would like to say that I didn't feel like any of your comments came across as arrogant or condescending, but as a honest assessment of what you thought, definitely not crossing the line.

1. Let me be clear on what I mean by wishful thinking. I don't mean that someone has analyzed clues -- comes to a conclusion -- and then analyzes other information in that context of how it relates to the conclusions already formed. What I mean is to argue from emotion rather than logic. For the most part, I don't care how the story turns out -- I just want a good story. I don't care if Tyrion is a head of the dragon or whether he rides a dragon or whether he lives or dies. To the extent I care at all, it is that I have come to certain conclusions from my reading of the clues and want to be shown to have been right. But none of my analysis is based on "wishful thinking" in the sense that I "prefer" that the story go a certain way because it would cause me to enjoy the story better. That is what I meant in the first statement of mine that you bolded. For example, many people think that the Tywin/Tyrion relationship, as outlined by GRRM, only works from a literary point of view if Tywin is the birth father of Tyrion. If that reasoning is the true rationale for that determination, even after considering all the counter-arguments, I would not call that line of reasoning wishful thinking. If it turns out to be mistaken, it was merely flawed analytical reasoning. My point is that I strongly suspect that many people are not coming to that conclusion based on that line of reasoning. I strongly suspect that many simply "like" the story better if Tywin is the bio-dad of Tyrion because they understood the story that way when first reading those chapters and Aerys as bio-dad would lessen their enjoyment of the story because they like the notion of the cruel father having it out for the deformed son for almost entirely unjustified reasons. That is the story they "like" and so they view all potential clues to the contrary through that prism. It is that form of reasoning that I call "wishful thinking" and I try incredibly hard to avoid engaging in such ways of thinking because its clouds objectivity in analyzing the clues. I am trying to be "right" in predicting what will happen -- not argue for the story that I would prefer to be written. And to be clear, I have never thought that you were one of the people engaging in wishful thinking -- so if you thought I was lumping you in that category, I will clarify here that I was not. But the way many others have discussed these issues, I have gotten the clear perception that they simply prefer the story to be a certain way and then engage in rationalization to analyze all clues with the goal of supporting the version they personally prefer.

I, like yourself, am not concerned with what I wish to happen. I don't have any favorites, and I'm not rooting for any specific characters to come out on top. I want to read a good story, in what ever fashion GRRM sees fit to tell HIS story.

Having said that, I will admit that when I first hear the theory of A+J=T, I had the same reaction as you referred to above. It seemed to contradict what I had already assessed about how I perceived the dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin. For this reason, I never gave this theory much consideration, and tended to stay away from any threads on the subject.

I just happen to come across this thread and figured, what the hell, I might as well see what all the hype is about. I was very impressed with the wealth of textual support you've included, as well as the sound reasoning you put forth to explain the dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin. You have definitely swayed me from my view that this was just another crackpot hidden identity theory. Great job. :thumbsup:

I apologize for rambling on without contributing to the subject at hand, but just figured I would share my thoughts and throw my support your way.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

UL, 

You are totes not condescending or arrogant AT ALL!!!!

Have great holiday weekend, Ill be back to talk more AJT next week  :)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Admittedly, I am only familiar with what you have put forth in this thread alone, but I would like to say that I didn't feel like any of your comments came across as arrogant or condescending, but as a honest assessment of what you thought, definitely not crossing the line.

I, like yourself, am not concerned with what I wish to happen. I don't have any favorites, and I'm not rooting for any specific characters to come out on top. I want to read a good story, in what ever fashion GRRM sees fit to tell HIS story.

Having said that, I will admit that when I first hear the theory of A+J=T, I had the same reaction as you referred to above. It seemed to contradict what I had already assessed about how I perceived the dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin. For this reason, I never gave this theory much consideration, and tended to stay away from any threads on the subject.

I just happen to come across this thread and figured, what the hell, I might as well see what all the hype is about. I was very impressed with the wealth of textual support you've included, as well as the sound reasoning you put forth to explain the dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin. You have definitely swayed me from my view that this was just another crackpot hidden identity theory. Great job. :thumbsup:

I apologize for rambling on without contributing to the subject at hand, but just figured I would share my thoughts and throw my support your way.

 

UL, 

You are totes not condescending or arrogant AT ALL!!!!

Have great holiday weekend, Ill be back to talk more AJT next week   :)

I appreciate the encouragement from both of you. My hope is for this thread to be as useful and inviting to as many people with as many different views as possible. I guess arrogance and condescension are in the eye of the beholder. Have a great weekend to both of you as well.  :cheers:

[Lost Melnibonean]

UL, 
You are totes not condescending or arrogant AT ALL!!!!
Have great holiday weekend, Ill be back to talk more AJT next week  :)

UL is definitely not rude. Not like that burpy gal.

[Weirdo]

As KVT pointed out -- Betha Blackwood, wife to Aegon V and grandmother to Aerys, had black hair. The world books gives us this information as well. No other Lannister is known to have black hair. And Tommen's hair turns gold as he grows older -- while Tyrion stays pale blond. Why does GRRM add these tidbits?

[...]

 

Given Betha Blackwood in the bloodline, I thought I'd have another look at Jaime's chapter with Tytos Blackwood, for any hints of what George was thinking about (it's also one of my favorite chapters, but I never read it in this context before). There are a few interesting things:

 

1. One of the first things Jaime observes about Tytos is his two-colored beard:

a ragged salt-and-pepper beard that showed more salt than pepper.

 

This is due to Tytos's age, of course, but I think it's interesting to call out two-tone hair right away.

 

2. Tytos questions Lord Jonos's fatherhood of a purported bastard son, Harry, based on hair color:

“He had a bastard son killed in the war.”

“Did he? Harry was a bastard, true enough, but whether Jonos sired him is a thornier question. A fair-haired boy, he was, and comely. Jonos is neither.”

 

Tytos is asserting, as did Jon Arryn and Ned long before, that hair color is important in determining fatherhood of a bastard - and also comeliness, a trait Tyrion lacks. Tywin seems to be generally considered handsome.

 

3. Jaime compares Hoster Blackwood's bookishness to Tyrion's:

“They have books in King’s Landing too. I recall my little brother reading them from time to time. Perhaps your son would like a look at them. I will accept Hoster as our hostage.”

 

4. Later, riding with Hoster, Jaime compares him to Tyrion again:

Tyrion would like this one. They could talk from dusk to dawn, arguing about books. For a moment his bitterness toward his brother was forgotten, until he remembered what the Imp had done.

 

5. A very small thing - there's also the oak with pennies nailed to it, in the village of Pennytree, which vaguely reminds one of Penny, 'attached' as she is to Tyrion. The villagers are locked up in the holdfast nearby, and the Penny tree outside of it, a possible hint at the Mereen situation. Jaime imagines Hoster could explain the reason for the pennies, but doesn't want to ruin the mystery. Probably nothing there, but I had forgotten that tree - George leaves it hanging, unexplained, and the chapter ends with Brienne's momentous arrival.

 

I find this all interesting because there's an awful lot of mention of Tyrion overall, especially at a time when Jaime should have Cersei more on his mind, and despite the fact that it's not a very long chapter, although amazingly dense overall. From a pure plot perspective, George could have left most of it out, but that would be a shame - it provides some great history and politics, more of Jaime's skill at negotiation, the cool weirwood tree and ravens - and along the way, a little bit of Tyrion.

 

[Jô Maltese]

Tytos Blackwood... You have just made me wondering at something Weirdo. Why did Tywin name his first beautiful and healthy son 'Jaime' and not a classic 'Ty-something', and conversely named his second malformed son 'Ty-rion'? The answer could be that his first son was so obviously 'Lannister' that the label 'Ty-' was not necessary, whereas his second son lacked a clear Lannister identity...

[UnmaskedLurker]

Tytos Blackwood... You have just made me wondering at something Weirdo. Why did Tywin name his first beautiful and healthy son 'Jaime' and not a classic 'Ty-something', and conversely named his second malformed son 'Ty-rion'? The answer could be that his first son was so obviously 'Lannister' that the label 'Ty-' was not necessary, whereas his second son lacked a clear Lannister identity...

While I am not sure why he named his first son Jaime -- one theory about Tyrion is that Tywin gave Tyrion that name because the most famous Tyrion is a Lannister King who was not a very nice guy.  Here is the discussion of him from the world book:

 

Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.

[Weirdo]

Tytos Blackwood... You have just made me wondering at something Weirdo. Why did Tywin name his first beautiful and healthy son 'Jaime' and not a classic 'Ty-something', and conversely named his second malformed son 'Ty-rion'? The answer could be that his first son was so obviously 'Lannister' that the label 'Ty-' was not necessary, whereas his second son lacked a clear Lannister identity...

Right, he protests too much with that name!

[Weirdo]

Tytos Blackwood... You have just made me wondering at something Weirdo. Why did Tywin name his first beautiful and healthy son 'Jaime' and not a classic 'Ty-something', and conversely named his second malformed son 'Ty-rion'? The answer could be that his first son was so obviously 'Lannister' that the label 'Ty-' was not necessary, whereas his second son lacked a clear Lannister identity...

And you point out an obvious hint at Tyrion, which I overlooked, the Ty- prefix in the name.

[Weirdo]

While I am not sure why he named his first son Jaime -- one theory about Tyrion is that Tywin gave Tyrion that name because the most famous Tyrion is a Lannister King who was not a very nice guy.  Here is the discussion of him from the world book:

 

Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.

And we know who else was aroused by violence - Aerys. After the Joanna interaction, one hopes, but still, it's an aspect of Aerys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Tytos Blackwood... You have just made me wondering at something Weirdo. Why did Tywin name his first beautiful and healthy son 'Jaime' and not a classic 'Ty-something', and conversely named his second malformed son 'Ty-rion'? The answer could be that his first son was so obviously 'Lannister' that the label 'Ty-' was not necessary, whereas his second son lacked a clear Lannister identity...

Lannisters don't only name their children names with Ty as tradition, you know.

Jason, Johanna, Joanna, Janei.. they all fall in Jamie's category, as far as names go. Lannister names with J are reasonably common as well amongst the house.

[Jô Maltese]

 

Given Betha Blackwood in the bloodline, I thought I'd have another look at Jaime's chapter with Tytos Blackwood, for any hints of what George was thinking about (it's also one of my favorite chapters, but I never read it in this context before). There are a few interesting things:

(...)

 

Re-reading aDwD - Jaime I:

 

Weeds and thorns and nettles grew in that wasteland, but nothing that could be called a crop. Everywhere Jaime looked he saw his father's hand, even in the bones they sometimes glimpsed beside the road. Most were sheep bones, but there were horses too, and cattle, and now and again a human skull, or a headless skeleton with weeds poking up through its rib cage.

:stunned:

[Jô Maltese]

Lannisters don't only name their children names with Ty as tradition, you know.

Jason, Johanna, Joanna, Janei.. they all fall in Jamie's category, as far as names go. Lannister names with J are reasonably common as well amongst the house.

Fair enough.

[DMC]

UL,

To clearly state, since this response is late as is, I don't think generally you're arrogant or condescending or any other pejorative term. Frankly, it's just sometimes in the heat of the debate I think your language gets out of hand and when I click on the thread it can seem as if you're denigrating anyone that challenges the theory. I'll respond to the rest of your post hopefully tomorrow, it's late, just wanted to emphasize my intent was not to be insulting.

[Lord Varys]

Lady Johanna was Westerling by birth, though, and there is no hint that she has immediate Lannister ancestors. But it may actually be that Johanna Westerling Lannister became an important matriarch in Lannister history considering that she apparently rebuilt Lannister power in the West as Lady Regent of her son and also helped to rebuild the Realm after the Dance. That could explain why Stafford's daughter Joanna may have been named after her.

 

Tytos Blackwood could actually have a Lannister ancestor.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lady Johanna is called Lannister, and Lannister only, in canon works. Only the MUSH calls her Westerling, and the MUSH is not canon. So until we have further info, we can't use such an argument.

 

And even if she is a Westerling, and not a Lannister, that doesn't change my point. There are several Lannisters whose names start with "Ja" or "J", and Jaime falls into that category. 

[Chinoiserie]

 

Tytos Blackwood could actually have a Lannister ancestor.

 

Or could he have been named after Tytos Lannister? Even if he was not a good lord apparently he tried to make friends and he might have been successful making them in Riverlands were he was not in charge of things. 

 

Tyrion's name probbaly was decided early on by GRRM and he made Tywin's name similar to point out the similarities between the two. I would assume he only later made Ty-names common for Lannisters which could explain why Tysha has a Ty-name (I refuse to think tinfoil incest theories). Or Ty-names are common for everyone in Westerlands and is only Lann-names that are associated with Lannisters in universe. GRRM could have made up Tyrion the Tormentor later just because people were washing why Tywin would give his son a Ty-name.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Sorry, but if this theory was true, I would be pretty unhappy. Not to say the theory is bad, just that it would undermine everything that Tyrion's character is about to me. Also, too many secret Targaryens for my liking, what's wrong with Tyrion just being a Lannister? Why does everyone have to be a Targaryen? 

[King Tyrion I]

Sorry, but if this theory was true, I would be pretty unhappy. Not to say the theory is bad, just that it would undermine everything that Tyrion's character is about to me. Also, too many secret Targaryens for my liking, what's wrong with Tyrion just being a Lannister? Why does everyone have to be a Targaryen? 

 

How many exactly do we know about besides Jon? And Shiera Seastar? The latter being an "official" Targ bastard, of course.

[Ser Creighton]

Lannisters don't only name their children names with Ty as tradition, you know.

Jason, Johanna, Joanna, Janei.. they all fall in Jamie's category, as far as names go. Lannister names with J are reasonably common as well amongst the house.

I agree as the name Tyrion predates the Andals, so I doubt it has anything to do with the Targs. Though the name is the name of at least two Kings.