Your New Job: Defense Attorney

[Wm Portnoy]

You, my friend, just got hired in the venerable law firm of Portnoy, Stewart, and Kojima, based in King's Landing.  The managing partner, Lord Bill Portnoy assigned you the cases listed below.  Please describe how you would defend the criminals and get the charges thrown out (dismissed, I think, is the term in the U.S.?). 

 

1. Sandor Clegane, charged with homicide for killing Mycah.
2. Walder Frey, charged with ordering a hit on Robb Stark and his bodyguards.  Desecration of said lord's remains.
3. Roose Bolton, charged with homicide for killing Robb Stark and plotting the removal of his boss from power.  Illegal acquisition of said lord's home and assets.
4. Stannis Baratheon, homicide in the assassination of his brother, Lord Renly.  Terrorism against the State.
5. Theon Greyjoy, homicide against his adoptive family, first-degree murder of two boys, and accessory to the murder of his maester.

Should you succeed, you are guaranteed partnership and equity within the next ten years.  A company horse and a corner office overlooking the Blackwater. 

[OldGimletEye]

You, my friend, just got hired in the venerable law firm of Portnoy, Stewart, and Kojima, based in King's Landing.  The managing partner, Lord Bill Portnoy assigned you the cases listed below.  Please describe how you would defend the criminals and get the charges thrown out (dismissed, I think, is the term in the U.S.?). 

 

1. Sandor Clegane, charged with homicide for killing Mycah.

I'll take this. I've already defended it. 

[Lion of the West]

I feel like I'm already doing this all the time, so I'll have to wait a little. But I do think that Roose together with Sandor is probably the easiest case.

[Lady Sharya]

Sorry, I really wanted to play this game.....but I have to take a job at the District Attorney's Office for these cases. Maybe I could defend Sandor because he was simply doing his job, but....good thing I didn't go Law school.;)

[falcotron]

1. We demand a Trial by Combat. May we suggest the Mountain as the Crown's champion? Your honor, get hype.
2. Waldie never killed anyone. You can't blame Waldie for what his girls did. Waldie is love, the Mother is love, therefore Waldie is the Mother.
3. Illegal acquisition? My client was granted said home and assets by the King of the Seven Kingdoms. What was he supposed to do, tell the King that he's wrong and demand that the grant be rescinded? Also, I demand that my client be presented at his trial; excuses that he vanished and a bat was seen flying out of his cell cannot satisfy a writ of habeus corpus, and a conviction in absentia cannot be upheld for a man who is legally still in custody.
4. There is no scientific evidence that shadowbabies even exist. And, even if there were, there are no statues regulating the use or disposition of shadowbabies.
5. In the charge of homicide against his adoptive family, my client could not have been guilty, because the miller's boys are not Bran and Rickon. In the charge of homicide against the miller's boys, I present all the evidence that the Crown presented to accuse my client of the murder of Bran and Rickon. Also, the charges should be dismissed as they were served upon the wrong person. There is no Theon. Reek, it rhymes with cheek.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

4 is easy. Call Brienne, the only witness, and she is going to say she saw "a shadow".

[Codename: Nymeria]

You, my friend, just got hired in the venerable law firm of Portnoy, Stewart, and Kojima, based in King's Landing.  The managing partner, Lord Bill Portnoy assigned you the cases listed below.  Please describe how you would defend the criminals and get the charges thrown out (dismissed, I think, is the term in the U.S.?). 

 

1. Sandor Clegane, charged with homicide for killing Mycah.
2. Walder Frey, charged with ordering a hit on Robb Stark and his bodyguards.  Desecration of said lord's remains.
3. Roose Bolton, charged with homicide for killing Robb Stark and plotting the removal of his boss from power.  Illegal acquisition of said lord's home and assets.
4. Stannis Baratheon, homicide in the assassination of his brother, Lord Renly.  Terrorism against the State.
5. Theon Greyjoy, homicide against his adoptive family, first-degree murder of two boys, and accessory to the murder of his maester.

Should you succeed, you are guaranteed partnership and equity within the next ten years.  A company horse and a corner office overlooking the Blackwater. 

 

It's acquitted, actually. When something is dismissed, it's been thrown own before having to go to court.

 

1. Plead this to manslaughter for giving up the guy who gave him the orders, Joffrey. What's Joffrey gonna do? 

2. Self-defense. I believe they've used that same excuse in the books.

3. Again, self-defense. Why not?

4. This one is easy, but don't tell KingStannisFan I said so. Wasn't even at the scene of the crime. Airtight alibi. We're gonna believe the already accused murderer screaming about some shadow? Brienne did it.

5. Truth; Theon isn't actually responsible for the killing of any Starks. As far as Luwin, I'm assuming that's part of a conspiracy charge? Unless he specifically instructed someone to kill Luwin, he lacks the mens rea necessary to be one. 

[OldGimletEye]

 

It's acquitted, actually. When something is dismissed, it's been thrown own before having to go to court.

 

1. Plead this to manslaughter for giving up the guy who gave him the orders, Joffrey. What's Joffrey gonna do? 

 

No. Potentially, take this to trial, using the superior orders defense.

[Codename: Nymeria]

No. Potentially, take this to trial, using the superior orders defense.

 

Touche. My CrimLaw professor would be disgusted with me.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1) trial by combat

2) Trial by combat but this is unnecessary. I'll file the paperwork for a formal pardon from the Iron Throne

3) See #2. Illegal acquisition of land is an unnecessary charge and misfiled. My son has married the recognized ruler of Robb's lands. Roose wouldn't be accused of this.

4) Summon Brienne, Davos, Devan, and Mel. Bring in Jaime Lannister and/or Loras Tyrell as expert witnesses. A heavy axe would have been required to cut through the gorget but none was found at the scene.

5) Summon Rickon and Bran via weirnet. 

[Brannis the Mannis]

 

It's acquitted, actually. When something is dismissed, it's been thrown own before having to go to court.

 

1. Plead this to manslaughter for giving up the guy who gave him the orders, Joffrey. What's Joffrey gonna do? 

2. Self-defense. I believe they've used that same excuse in the books.

3. Again, self-defense. Why not?

4. This one is easy, but don't tell KingStannisFan I said so. Wasn't even at the scene of the crime. Airtight alibi. We're gonna believe the already accused murderer screaming about some shadow? Brienne did it.

5. Truth; Theon isn't actually responsible for the killing of any Starks. As far as Luwin, I'm assuming that's part of a conspiracy charge? Unless he specifically instructed someone to kill Luwin, he lacks the mens rea necessary to be one. 

 

5. He's still responsible for the death of two peasant boys.

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

5. He's still responsible for the death of two peasant boys.

 

And that's why I don't do criminal defense work in real life. Still, who's left that's able to testify to that particular crime? Y'know, assuming Westeros has a 5th Amendment.

[Universal Sword Donor]

 

And that's why I don't do criminal defense work in real life. Still, who's left that's able to testify to that particular crime? Y'know, assuming Westeros has a 5th Amendment.

 

Did Theon even kill the boys? I thought he more or less let Reek talk him into letting Reek kill and flay them

[Raving Stark the Mad]

No. Potentially, take this to trial, using the superior orders defense.

Is this a lawful order though? :)

 

Does the 12 year old crown prince have the authority to order the execution of a peasant boy? 

[OldGimletEye]

Is this a lawful order though? :)

 

Does the 12 year old crown prince have the authority to order the execution of a peasant boy? 

Well, the actual standard would be manifest illegality, not mere illegality (the rule in most jurisdictions, but not all). Technically, the United States uses the reasonableness test in war crimes cases, which is supposed to be a bit more stringent standard than the manifest illegality test, but there is a case to be made that US military courts in fact use the standard of manifest illegality.

 

The order, however, came from Cersei. The question is whether the order from Cersei was manifestly unlawful. Remember, that generally, the manifest illegality of an order has to be immediate apparent. And generally, soldiers are not required to go on extensive fact finding missions to determine the legality of an order. And since were dealing with Westeros here, it's possible that 13 year old could be eligible for a death sentence. All Sandor knows is the alleged crime Mycah committted as told by Cersei.

 

This is the short answer.

 

I have a longer one if you would like to read it.

[Ramsay Gimp]

What are the standards of proof here? Beyond a reasonable doubt, or preponderance of evidence?

 

And are we assuming the jury is just a randomly selected group from Westeros, or does the jury have full reader knowledge?

[Codename: Nymeria]

Well, the actual standard would be manifest illegality, not mere illegality (the rule in most jurisdictions, but not all). Technically, the United States uses the reasonableness test in war crimes cases, which is supposed to be a bit more stringent standard than the manifest illegality test, but there is a case to be made that US military courts in fact use the standard of manifest illegality.

 

The order, however, came from Cersei. The question is whether the order from Cersei was manifestly unlawful. Remember, that generally, the manifest illegality of an order has to be immediate apparent. And generally, soldiers are not required to go on extensive fact finding missions to determine the legality of an order. And since were dealing with Westeros here, it's possible that 13 year old could be eligible for a death sentence. All Sandor knows is the alleged crime Mycah committted as told by Cersei.

 

This is the short answer.

 

I have a longer one if you would like to read it.

 

What are the standards of proof here? Beyond a reasonable doubt, or preponderance of evidence?

 

And are we assuming the jury is just a randomly selected group from Westeros, or does the jury have full reader knowledge?

 

 

 

I think the OP's question is set up to suggest a criminal, non-military court setting, which we be that you have to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  OGE, is part of your argument based on sovereign immunity? After all, all of Robert's household (including Cersei) are pretty much appendages of the State; I know a king's word is law, but is a queen's? Which is why, I see that you're correct in that it would have to be tried as a war crime. So that's at least one-fifth of the way to a fictional partnership, right there.

[OldGimletEye]

 

 

 

I think the OP's question is set up to suggest a criminal, non-military court setting, which we be that you have to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  OGE, is part of your argument based on sovereign immunity? After all, all of Robert's household (including Cersei) are pretty much appendages of the State; I know a king's word is law, but is a queen's? Which is why, I see that you're correct in that it would have to be tried as a war crime. So that's at least one-fifth of the way to a fictional partnership, right there.

Well, Sandor was arguably a military person given an order. So, I'd argue a military court would have jurisdiction over his case. With regard to Cersei: She was Sandor's direct superior. He has a right to presume, like all soldiers do, that their direct superior is giving them a lawful order, unless the order  was so patently unlawful on its face no reasonable person could assume it was lawful. Generally, a soldier isn't expected to jump his chain of command to verify the legality of an order.

[Faydra]

Sandor has the easiest case as he was following orders and what he did was authorized even if highly immoral.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Again, we need to know if the jury has reader knowledge or not. It would be a lot easier to convince a Westerosi peasant that Roose wasn't involved in the Red Wedding than someone who's actually read ASOS