Your New Job: Defense Attorney

[Ramsay Gimp]

 

  OGE, is part of your argument based on sovereign immunity? 

 

Sovereign immunity could actually be used in all of these cases except Theon's, no? Roose and Walder were acting on orders from the Iron Throne, and Stannis is the "rightful" King

[OldGimletEye]

Sandor has the easiest case as he was following orders and what he did was authorized even if highly immoral.

Well, to be fair following orders, or the superior orders defense isn't always a defense. It's a conditional defense. As to it's morality, yeah, its problematic, but I'd compare it to Robert H. Jackson's comments in a letter to Harry Truman, about the Nuremburg proceedings, where Jackson wrote that a soldier on a firing squad wouldn't be held liable for an execution, so long as the soldier had no cause to know that the condemned was innocent or that there was some irregularity in the proceeding.

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

Well, Sandor was arguably a military person given an order. So, I'd argue a military court would have jurisdiction over his case. With regard to Cersei: She was Sandor's direct superior. He has a right to presume, like all soldiers do, that their direct superior is giving them a lawful order, unless the order  was so patently unlawful on its face no reasonable person could assume it was lawful. Generally, a soldier isn't expected to jump his chain of command to verify the legality of an order.

 

 

My thinking was the closest analogy would be the Secret Service, hence the Dept of the Treasury and prosecuted under federal and/or local statutes. Not that I'm being hyper-technical, or anything.

 

 

 

Sovereign immunity could actually be used in all of these cases except Theon's, no? Roose and Walder were acting on orders from the Iron Throne, and Stannis is the "rightful" King

 

Well, that only works with proof. There are probably still people around that can easily testify to hearing Cersei order the Hound to kill Mycah. Much harder to produce evidence of such orders in a matter that the IT won't care to deny being involved in.

[OldGimletEye]

 

Sovereign immunity could actually be used in all of these cases except Theon's, no? Roose and Walder were acting on orders from the Iron Throne, and Stannis is the "rightful" King

In most countries national laws, sovereign immunity doesn't protect you from war crime charges. For instance, William Calley would have never been tried, if sovereign immunity applied. And certainly, as far the law of international war crimes go, sovereign immunity doesn't protect either.

[falcotron]

Well, Sandor was arguably a military person given an order. So, I'd argue a military court would have jurisdiction over his case. With regard to Cersei: She was Sandor's direct superior. He has a right to presume, like all soldiers do, that their direct superior is giving them a lawful order, unless the order  was so patently unlawful on its face no reasonable person could assume it was lawful. Generally, a soldier isn't expected to jump his chain of command to verify the legality of an order.

Does the fact that Sandor refused knighthood make a difference? Did he ever take any kind of oath of service? I think he's actually more of a civilian contractor, and as Iraq has shown us, the laws are pretty murky where they're concerned, probably even more so in a country where he's the only one.

 

You could try to apply Northern precedents (since they don't have knighthood or formal oaths), but I suspect if you told the lord in judgment that Sandor is the equivalent of a Northern man in service, a knight in all but name, and the lord asked him to confirm that, his answer would be something like "fuck that", which might not go over so well.

 

Maybe the best bet would be to try to consider him equivalent to a conscripted commoner? They may be held even less liable to question orders than knights or vassals, despite the lack of an oath.

 

At any rate, given that Westeros has trial by combat, I can't imagine why you wouldn't just use that. Either he gets a chance to fight his brother, or he wins and goes free. If you try to suggest anything else, he'll fire you with Hound-ish prejudice and get another lawyer who will then have to defend him for your murder on top of everything else.

[Faydra]

Well, to be fair following orders, or the superior orders defense isn't always a defense. It's a conditional defense. As to it's morality, yeah, its problematic, but I'd compare it to Robert H. Jackson's comments in a letter to Harry Truman, about the Nuremburg proceedings, where Jackson wrote that a soldier on a firing squad wouldn't be held liable for an execution, so long as the soldier had no cause to know that the condemned was innocent or that there was some irregularity in the proceeding.

 

Yes, Sandor was not in measure to question Cersei's authority over the order. He's also misinformed believing that Sansa certifies Joffrey story instead of simply pleading the fifth.

[Rho'd Berth]

I would actually be interested in an honest trial for Tyrion for murdering King Joffrey.
I was a bit disappointed that Tyrion didn't try to counter the accusations, that he didn't claim innocent and explained what happened. It may seem like a lost cause but it obviously was not a lost cause, after all: he didn't do it.

 

2 of the judges would even be willing to plead him innocent, Obery absolutely and even Tywin would have much to win if his already despited son would not also be a kin- and kingslayer.

[Kaibaman]

 

1. Stannis Baratheon, homicide in the assassination of his brother, Lord Renly.  Terrorism against the State.

In my opinion Stannis was acting out of self defense as Renly intended on killing him in the battle they never had. Stannis striked first and took Renly out before he could commit fratricide (ironically by committing fratricide). Also Stannis has deniability on his side as Mel took the initiative to whack Renly without Stannis even knowing. 

[Howlin' Howland]

You, my friend, just got hired in the venerable law firm of Portnoy, Stewart, and Kojima, based in King's Landing.  The managing partner, Lord Bill Portnoy assigned you the cases listed below.  Please describe how you would defend the criminals and get the charges thrown out (dismissed, I think, is the term in the U.S.?). 

 

1. Sandor Clegane, charged with homicide for killing Mycah.
2. Walder Frey, charged with ordering a hit on Robb Stark and his bodyguards.  Desecration of said lord's remains.
3. Roose Bolton, charged with homicide for killing Robb Stark and plotting the removal of his boss from power.  Illegal acquisition of said lord's home and assets.
4. Stannis Baratheon, homicide in the assassination of his brother, Lord Renly.  Terrorism against the State.
5. Theon Greyjoy, homicide against his adoptive family, first-degree murder of two boys, and accessory to the murder of his maester.

Should you succeed, you are guaranteed partnership and equity within the next ten years.  A company horse and a corner office overlooking the Blackwater. 

 

1)  Mycah was a dangerous fugitive who'd already attacked and injured the crown prince, when the Hound tried to arrest him Mycah resisted and the Hound had no choice but to kill him in an act of self defense.

 

2)  Robb was a member of an armed rebellion and had already gained entry into the Frey's castle, killing the rebels was an act of self defense.

 

3)  Same as #2 for the killing.  As for taking Winterfell, in a feudal society kings have the authority to grant lands and titles so that was perfectly legal.

 

4)  Can the prosecution even provide evidence that shadow demons exist?  Also, sovereign immunity.

 

5)  Due to a series of recent traumas Theon lacks the mental capacity to assist in his own defense and therefore should be sent to a mental hospital and not put on trial.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You, my friend, just got hired in the venerable law firm of Portnoy, Stewart, and Kojima, based in King's Landing.  The managing partner, Lord Bill Portnoy assigned you the cases listed below.  Please describe how you would defend the criminals and get the charges thrown out (dismissed, I think, is the term in the U.S.?). 

 

1. Sandor Clegane, charged with homicide for killing Mycah.
2. Walder Frey, charged with ordering a hit on Robb Stark and his bodyguards.  Desecration of said lord's remains.
3. Roose Bolton, charged with homicide for killing Robb Stark and plotting the removal of his boss from power.  Illegal acquisition of said lord's home and assets.
4. Stannis Baratheon, homicide in the assassination of his brother, Lord Renly.  Terrorism against the State.
5. Theon Greyjoy, homicide against his adoptive family, first-degree murder of two boys, and accessory to the murder of his maester.

Should you succeed, you are guaranteed partnership and equity within the next ten years.  A company horse and a corner office overlooking the Blackwater. 

Sorry to tell you guys this, but following orders wouldn't absolve Sandor in a US court, particularly a military one--an unlawful order can be refused, so you don't get off just because you did what you were told.  And I live in the US so I'm going to use what might work here for his defense. 

 

Please note: as a defense attorney, clearly lies are totally fine.  And let's not forget that if the defendants are being judged by a jury of their peers...well, you get the idea.

 

1.  I would argue PTSD from his traumatic childhood and service during the Rebellion plus putting up with Joffrey for years.  Added to that is his fear of fire, and the fact that in searching after dark there were torches involved.  The combination equals temporary insanity.

 

2. Walder Frey has to be carried everywhere.  He can barely walk, let alone kill anyone.  He was just as shocked as the rest of Westeros when a bunch of his sons and grandsons--led by Black Walder--started slaughtering guests.  Even poor Robb's pet wolf!  Everyone who knows Lord Frey knows that he loves dogs!  And besides that, a living direwolf is valuable--such a waste them mutilating that animal when he could have charged admission for people to visit Grey Wind.  Walder has a clear history of not being able to make up his mind (see Hoster v Walder, during the Rebellion).  No way he could have decided in favor of such a terrible event until after it was over.  And seriously...he was focusing on his daughter's wedding and the expense.  Do you really think a "frugal" man like my client would want to add blood stain removal to the already high cost of the festivities?  Rather than suing for malicious prosecution, Lord Frey is willing to cooperate fully with the authorities and turn states' evidence against those members of his family who have brought shame to the house in exchange for the charges being dropped, and full immunity for any other past or future crimes attributed to him.

 

3.  Roose Bolton was one of King Robb's staunchest supporters and barely escaped with his life at the so-called Red Wedding.  Yes, as eyewitnesses report he did stab King Robb, but that was an act of mercy as the poor man was suffering and clearly not going to survive as he was shot full of arrows.  My other client Lord Frey will happily testify that tears were running down Lord Bolton's eyes at the moment the knife went in.  In fact, at King Robb's final words--for his beloved direwolf--Lord Bolton whispered a heartfelt promise to care for the animal.  Sadly, by the time Lord Bolton was able to reach Grey Wind, Black Walder had killed the poor beast.  As to the acquisition of the deceased's lands and title, please note that my client is not now nor has he ever called himself King in the North or of the Riverlands.  Lord Bolton holds only the title granted to him by the crown, that of Warden of the North.  The lands in question belong not to Lord Bolton, as has been so slanderously claimed, but to his good-daughter Arya Stark, who I'm sure we can all agree is the rightful owner of Winterfell and all it's attendant holdings.

 

4. I have witnesses--including members of the Reach army--to prove that King Stannis was nowhere near the crime scene at the time of the attack on Prince Renly.  I move that the murder charges be dropped.  As to the terrorism charge, I request that it be dismissed as well.  Stannis Baratheon is the rightful king, and as such has committed no crimes against the state.  

 

5. There is no such charge as "homicide against one's adopted family."  My client maintains that while he did nothing to prevent said murders, nor did he actively participate in them, but rather was conned by a dangerous psychopath who actually committed the crimes, and then blackmailed young master Greyjoy into becoming his personal torture-toy.  Raven security tapes show that Maester Luwin was killed by a Wildling woman who was being held captive at Winterfell and escaped in the confusion after the same dangerous psychopath--namely one Ramsay Snow--set fire to the castle.  I move that the court release my traumatized client and file formal charges against Ramsay Snow and the Wildling woman!  

 

What's that?  there is no Ramsay Snow anymore? And no one knows where the Wildling is?  Well that's the D.A.'s problem, not mine.

[OldGimletEye]

Sorry to tell you guys this, but following orders wouldn't absolve Sandor in a US court, particularly a military one--an unlawful order can be refused, so you don't get off just because you did what you were told.  And I live in the US so I'm going to use what might work here for his defense. 

 

I went at length to explain how this actually works. Superior orders can be a defense to even an illegal act. It's not an absolute defense, but only a conditional one. The prosecution can't just allege that the act was illegal. It's burden is higher.

 

ETA:

Also, keep in mind that in the law of war crimes, soldiers are only punished for the violation of laws, not necessarily bad or questionable acts.

[Codename: Nymeria]

Sorry to tell you guys this, but following orders wouldn't absolve Sandor in a US court, particularly a military one--an unlawful order can be refused, so you don't get off just because you did what you were told.  And I live in the US so I'm going to use what might work here for his defense. 

 

Sorry to tell you this, but I'm a lawyer barred in two US jurisdictions, and yes, yes it absolutely would.

 

The superior orders doctrine quite clearly applies. This is clearly spelled out in United States v. Keenan, 39 C.M.R. 108(1969) and United States v. Calley, 48 C.M.R. 19 (1973), both of which hold that a military officer following orders can only be held criminally responsible for their actions where the order "is one which a man of ordinary sense and understanding would, under the circumstances, know to be unlawful."  This is codified in the Military Code for Court-Martials (MCM) verbatim. So, the burden on the prosecutor would be prove that the act met that standard beyond a reasonable doubt. Given that Sandor wasn't present for Joffrey and Arya's duel, and the queen had just told him Mycah had attacked Joffrey (not to mention that the Queen's word is pretty much law), I can't see a competent defense attorney who wouldn't be able to stop that standard from being met.

 

In fact, Sandor couldn't even be held civilly liable in a US Court, under the doctrine of respondeat superior.

[Roswell]

I'd expect more than a corner office in King's Landing for defending these hardened criminals.  How about a permanent membership to Littlefinger's Men's Clubs with full benefits.

 

1. Micah made terroristic threats against Prince Joffrey.  Sandor was duty-bound to protect his sovereign.
2. Robb Stark was a rebel.  All Lord Walder ever did was serve the king and ended the rebellion with minimal loss of life.  The Hand of the King authorized the act.
3. Roose Bolton was authorized by The Hand of the King to put down the rebellion.
4. Stannis was innocent.  His priestess killed Renly without his knowledge. 
5. Theon was a hostage.  He had a right to attempt escape from his captors.  The two boys and Leuwin were collateral damage. 

[Valyrian Blade]

Clegane is a sworn sword in everything but name, no oaths sure, he still did as he was bid.

[Nevets]

You, my friend, just got hired in the venerable law firm of Portnoy, Stewart, and Kojima, based in King's Landing.  The managing partner, Lord Bill Portnoy assigned you the cases listed below.  Please describe how you would defend the criminals and get the charges thrown out (dismissed, I think, is the term in the U.S.?). 

 

1. Sandor Clegane, charged with homicide for killing Mycah.
2. Walder Frey, charged with ordering a hit on Robb Stark and his bodyguards.  Desecration of said lord's remains.
3. Roose Bolton, charged with homicide for killing Robb Stark and plotting the removal of his boss from power.  Illegal acquisition of said lord's home and assets.
4. Stannis Baratheon, homicide in the assassination of his brother, Lord Renly.  Terrorism against the State.
5. Theon Greyjoy, homicide against his adoptive family, first-degree murder of two boys, and accessory to the murder of his maester.

Should you succeed, you are guaranteed partnership and equity within the next ten years.  A company horse and a corner office overlooking the Blackwater. 

I am going to assume, for sake of simplicity, that they are charged with violating Westeros law, but the trial is U.S. procedure.  Among other things, that avoids issues of ex post facto law.  In other words, you can't be charged with a crime that didn't exist when (or where) it was committed.

 

1. Sandor's case has been discussed above.  He is told that the prince was attacked, that the penalty is death, and is ordered to carry it out.  He has no reason to believe that any of this is inaccurate.  Similar to his defense with the BwB, in fact.
2. The proper charge for Walder Frey would be murder in violation of guest right.  Good luck defending that one.  There is a reason everyone in Westeros hates the Freys.
3. Roose Bolton was killing a rebel, with the authority of the crown.  The crown is authorized to grant him Winterfell, especially as it, and the position of Warden of the North, are both vacant.
4. Stannis.  Even if Brienne's statement that she saw a shadow in the shape of Stannis is accepted as being true, and even assuming that the existence of shadowbabies is accepted (two big ifs) it is insufficient to convict Stannis.  She cannot positively identify him, and he was hundreds of miles away anyway.  Simple motive isn't sufficient proof.
5. Theon.  Petition to have him declared incompetent to stand trial due to mental injuries resulting from Ramsay's torture and having become Reek.

[Light a wight tonight]

 

1)  Mycah was a dangerous fugitive who'd already attacked and injured the crown prince, when the Hound tried to arrest him Mycah resisted and the Hound had no choice but to kill him in an act of self defense.

 

 

He was reaching for his waistband...

[falcotron]

Sorry to tell you this, but I'm a lawyer barred in two US jurisdictions, and yes, yes it absolutely would.

Sorry to tell you this, but I'm a drunk barred from more than two US establishments, and no, no, the most reasonable resolution of this case is a trial by combat against the Mountain.

This is clearly spelled out in Godzilla vs. MUTO (2014), where Justice Serizawa found for "let them fight".

[OldGimletEye]

Sorry to tell you this, but I'm a drunk barred from more than two US establishments, and no, no, the most reasonable resolution of this case is a trial by combat against the Mountain.

This is clearly spelled out in Godzilla vs. MUTO (2014), where Justice Serizawa found for "let them fight".

:bowdown:  :lmao:

 

Fucking awesome. I spit out my pop reading this.

[Sly Wren]

Sorry to tell you this, but I'm a drunk barred from more than two US establishments, and no, no, the most reasonable resolution of this case is a trial by combat against the Mountain.

This is clearly spelled out in Godzilla vs. MUTO (2014), where Justice Serizawa found for "let them fight".

Thus setting legal precedent by issuing the first writ of hack-eus corpus.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Judge: "Stannis Baratheon, you stand charged of terrorism against the state."

 

Stannis: "I am the state!"  (grinds teeth)