Heresy 177

[Armstark]

 

First, let me correct your misinterpretation of what I wrote. When the host dies the warg's second life is over and he/she joins the rocks, trees, streams, etc. The warg can no longer skinchange him/herself out of the host because their own body, which served as an anchor no longer exists. The spirit of the warg is assimilated into the host and becomes more like the host. A separate identity is not maintained. V6 showed us this as well when he was in Orell's eagle. Orell was also there, but was moreso in the background and had no power to keep V6 from entering. As for the ravens, Leaf said the ravens have memories of the Children that skinchanged into them, but she never said any of them chose to live their second lives in them. Any time a warg slips into the skin of a creature, a part of the warg remains, but this is not the same as the spirit remaining in a second life.

Oh sorry I misinterpreted you. It seems we are in agreement then. The soul that I was speaking of in my original post is of course the combined soul of Ghost and Jon as you are right to point out. 

 

I still don't see how Haggon contradicts my theory though as Haggon speaks of the limits of the life of a skinchanger and what I suggest is a different kind of magic.

 

The bolded part is something I didn't really consider/know, so thank you for pointing it out to me. It seems I shouldn't have written my edit without thinking it through  :blushing:

[Black Crow]

:cheers:

 

My question is then how he is a Stark if he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (or whoever)? Wouldn't he just as much be a Snow as as the son of Eddard and whoever? Or maybe one should say he is a Rivers, Waters or Sand. Either way he is no Stark.

 

I thought you didn't believe in the secret marriage propagated in a certain other place.

 

I don't, which is why I prefer the term a son of Winterfell [rather than call him a Stark] and cite the example of Bael's bastard son who became Lord of Winterfell, rather than whatever dunghill Bael sprung from

[Melifeather]

Oh sorry I misinterpreted you. It seems we are in agreement then. The soul that I was speaking of in my original post is of course the combined soul of Ghost and Jon as you are right to point out. 

 

I still don't see how Haggon contradicts my theory though as Haggon speaks of the limits of the life of a skinchanger and what I suggest is a different kind of magic.

 

The bolded part is something I didn't really consider/know, so thank you for pointing it out to me. It seems I shouldn't have written my edit without thinking it through  :blushing:

 

 

No wuckin' furries, as our Aussie friends might say! I admire a person who's not afraid to admit when they've made a mistake.

[Jak Scaletongue]

:cheers:
 
My question is then how he is a Stark if he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (or whoever)? Wouldn't he just as much be a Snow as as the son of Eddard and whoever? Or maybe one should say he is a Rivers, Waters or Sand. Either way he is no Stark.
 
I thought you didn't believe in the secret marriage propagated in a certain other place.

Blood has been shown to be very important in the series. Names, on the other hand, are just names and can be changed depending on the circumstances. And Jon has as much Stark blood in him as the rest of his siblings. One Stark parent, one "other" parent, just like the other five kids. If he's legitimised, his name changes. But whether he's legitimised or not, his blood doesn't change.

He's got the same Stark blood flowing through his veins as Robb did. That's what makes him so threatening in Catelyn's eyes - his blood, not his name. As Brandon's bastard his threat level wouldn't have decreased in Catelyn's eyes - as Lyanna's bastard he may have, because with Ned and Benjen still alive (at the time), Lyanna's (and any bastard descendants) claim to Winterfell is lower than Brandon or Ned's bastard (or even Benjen's). Not that any of their bastards would have a *strong* claim, but it's still a claim, especially if he's got important people backing his claim.

[Melifeather]

Speaking of Mirri earlier....I want to add this thought.

 

Whatever Mirri was doing, she was not trying to help Dany in any way, shape or form. She wanted to kill Rhaego to make sure there would be "no stallion that mounts the world." So the magic she performed in that tent was a deliberate fubar. She likely took the life force of the horse and put it into Drogo. That's why he was as dumb as a box of rocks afterwards. That poor horse wouldn't have known what to do and was dumbfounded.

[Matthew.]

 

... Jon being the son of Lyanna and embracing his destiny as a son of Winterfell and a King of Winter [ie; that hard man in hard times having dominion over it] is consistent with the synopsis in a way that being revealed as Azor Ahai is not.

Neither scenario is either consistent nor inconsistent with the synopsis, as all that it tells us is that an impediment to a relationship with Arya will be removed, following a revelation, which is true in both scenarios. The fact that that is all that Martin was willing to give away in the 1993 letter also does not reveal anything in particular about how far this business will go, since he didn't give detailed ending descriptions for any other core character.

 

 The problem is rather that outside of the books it has assumed a life of its own which isn't justified either by what we're read or what's predicted in the synopsis.

 

Even if it has assumed a life of it's own, why is this "a problem?" Who cares if some segment of the community wants to endlessly discuss particular aspects of the story, or go down speculative roads that may end up being wrong? That's where their interests lay as readers  :dunno: 

This seems an especially odd sentiment, since there are several lines of discussion in Heresy that are the very definition of latching onto some snippet of text, and allowing it to assume a life of its own, including entire speculative histories involving the CotF, the Black Gate, the Otherlands, and all manner of things that cannot be "justified" by the limited textual information we have to draw upon.

[Matthew.]

 

Also he doesn't have to be Azor Ahai or King Jon Targaryen I.  for his father to have some meaning. I doubt Mathew even argues he will become one of those.

 

 

True, I don't think Jon is going to be either AA or the King of Westeros. I really think that, as far as that AA/tptwp business goes, it might be something that's left ambiguous enough that it'll still be debated even after the story is finished-- "Jon was AA, and the Night's Watch was Lightbringer!" "Drogon was Lightbringer" "Nobody was AA, the prophecies were always nonsense!"

[Tucu]

Speaking of Mirri earlier....I want to add this thought.

 

Whatever Mirri was doing, she was not trying to help Dany in any way, shape or form. She wanted to kill Rhaego to make sure there would be "no stallion that mounts the world." So the magic she performed in that tent was a deliberate fubar. She likely took the life force of the horse and put it into Drogo. That's why he was as dumb as a box of rocks afterwards. That poor horse wouldn't have known what to do and was dumbfounded.

I posted this on another thread:

 

Mirri intended Drogo to become a docile horse as a way to laugh at the powerful Dothraki. Jorah and Dany interruption caused a second effect with the life force of Rhaego being swapped with the dead dragon eggs. Mirri was probably not experienced enough with Asshai magic to know this would happen.

 

A couple of quotes to back this up:

"Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man.""

 

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

[Sly Wren]

Oh sorry I misinterpreted you. It seems we are in agreement then. The soul that I was speaking of in my original post is of course the combined soul of Ghost and Jon as you are right to point out. 

 

I still don't see how Haggon contradicts my theory though as Haggon speaks of the limits of the life of a skinchanger and what I suggest is a different kind of magic.

 

The bolded part is something I didn't really consider/know, so thank you for pointing it out to me. It seems I shouldn't have written my edit without thinking it through  :blushing:

:agree:

Was just re-reading Kingmonkey's "Puppets of Ice and Fire."He and Pretty Pig have both pointed out the strong parallels between the toj scene and Mirri's tent. 

 

But Mirri's performing a blood ritual where the death of the son ends up paying for the father. Where an innocent is sacrificed against his will--death pays for life. And like all blood sacrifices of innocent others, the ritual comes back to bite Dany. Hard.

 

But the toj--all of these men are fighting willingly. Self-sacrifice. So it's not a sacrificial, fire-and-blood ritual. So why the intense parallels with Mirri's tent? It's still a sacrifice--death pays for life. Like Lyanna dies giving life to Jon--we assume out of love and duty. Not intending to die, but still--willing sacrifice for his life.

 

But Jon's already had Lyanna pay for his life--he's born with the dead, like the direwolves. Like Ghost. So what's the second sacrifice paying for? His next life. 

 

I think the price has already been paid. Not as a blood ritual, but still a payment--self-sacrifice in the line of duty. We've seen inadvertent sacrifices have power--the execution of Gared and the finding of the wolves. The sacrifice of Lady and Bran's waking up. 

 

But this isn't the sacrifice of an innocent. These men choose to be there. Like Lyanna--gives her life for Jon. Which means this life is paid for. So, his next life? That got paid for, too. Jon just needs to collect. 

 

Bottom line: a different kind of magic. Like Mirri's, but not the ritualistic sacrifice of an innocent. Instead, a duty bound willing sacrifice--that ends up paying for life.

[Black Crow]

Neither scenario is either consistent nor inconsistent with the synopsis, as all that it tells us is that an impediment to a relationship with Arya will be removed, following a revelation, which is true in both scenarios. The fact that that is all that Martin was willing to give away in the 1993 letter also does not reveal anything in particular about how far this business will go, since he didn't give detailed ending descriptions for any other core character.

 

Perfectly true, but what he did do was centre it around the Starks of Winterfell rather than say the Targaryens, who feature only as the threat posed by Danaerys the Dragonlord.

[Black Crow]

True, I don't think Jon is going to be either AA or the King of Westeros. I really think that, as far as that AA/tptwp business goes, it might be something that's left ambiguous enough that it'll still be debated even after the story is finished-- "Jon was AA, and the Night's Watch was Lightbringer!" "Drogon was Lightbringer" "Nobody was AA, the prophecies were always nonsense!"

 

Clearly we're arguing in terms of degrees rather than absolutes for this is very much my own perspective.

[Black Crow]

 

I think the price has already been paid. Not as a blood ritual, but still a payment--self-sacrifice in the line of duty. We've seen inadvertent sacrifices have power--the execution of Gared and the finding of the wolves. The sacrifice of Lady and Bran's waking up. 

 

Its an interesting thought, so what then was the sacrifice that triggered the snowflake communion?

[Sly Wren]

 

Its an interesting thought, so what then was the sacrifice that triggered the snowflake communion?

I think that's Ned. 

 

Ned intended to sacrifice his honor for Sansa, not his life. So the sacrifice is unintentional on his part for Sansa.

 

But it immediately starts opening her eyes--like the sacrifice of Lady opens Bran's. The next Sansa POV, when she sees Joff, she thinks how she'd never noticed that his "beautiful" lips looked like worms. She goes on from there--his beauty is gone. She sees him.

 

Granted, this could also be tied to just the psychological shock of Ned's murder--but still, "seeing." So, the Snowflake Communion--a natural progression of Sansa's opening her eyes. An opening paid for by Ned.

 

Like Syrio pays for Arya: ETA--he tells he to open her eyes. After he dies and she escapes, she doesn't dance with the stable boy. She remembers Jon's words and just sticks him. Then, remembering Syrio told her to be unexpected, she goes down into the depths of the castle to escape. She specifically thinks of playing in the crypts with her siblings and how she knew not to be afraid of the flour-covered Jon. She goes down--into a figurative crypt. Like Sansa goes down a spiral into a black and white garden.

 

And Quorin pays for Jon: ETA: He only sees his Sword of the Morning epiphany after killing Quorin.

 

Edited for clarity.

[Black Crow]

I think that's Ned. 

 

Ned intended to sacrifice his honor for Sansa, not his life. So the sacrifice is unintentional on his part for Sansa.

 

But it immediately starts opening her eyes--like the sacrifice of Lady opens Bran's. The next Sansa POV, when she sees Joff, she thinks how she'd never noticed that his "beautiful" lips looked like worms. She goes on from there--his beauty is gone. She sees him.

 

Granted, this could also be tied to just the psychological shock of Ned's murder--but still, "seeing." So, the Snowflake Communion--a natural progression of Sansa's opening her eyes. An opening paid for by Ned.

 

That's certainly a strong possibility but I'd be happier if they were more closely linked in time.

[Jak Scaletongue]

 

That's certainly a strong possibility but I'd be happier if they were more closely linked in time.

 

What about Dontos?  He died "saving" her, right?

[Melifeather]

I posted this on another thread:

 

Mirri intended Drogo to become a docile horse as a way to laugh at the powerful Dothraki. Jorah and Dany interruption caused a second effect with the life force of Rhaego being swapped with the dead dragon eggs. Mirri was probably not experienced enough with Asshai magic to know this would happen.

 

A couple of quotes to back this up:

"Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man.""

 

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

 

Mirri's reply to Danny regarding Rhaego about how he will no longer be able to mount the world indicates, at least to me, that she was trying to cause his death. Rhaego's life does go into one of the dragon eggs, but was this Mirri's doing? We learned in the books that the spirit is in the bones and will remain until the bones are cracked open down to the marrow. Unless of course you are a warg, then you have the ability to slip your spirit out of your bones and into a host, but it remains anchored in your body until your body dies. Rhaego and Drogo's spirits were released in that funeral pyre along with Mirri's and went into the dragon eggs where they're living their second lives.

 

 

:agree:

Was just re-reading Kingmonkey's "Puppets of Ice and Fire."He and Pretty Pig have both pointed out the strong parallels between the toj scene and Mirri's tent. 

 

But Mirri's performing a blood ritual where the death of the son ends up paying for the father. Where an innocent is sacrificed against his will--death pays for life. And like all blood sacrifices of innocent others, the ritual comes back to bite Dany. Hard.

 

But the toj--all of these men are fighting willingly. Self-sacrifice. So it's not a sacrificial, fire-and-blood ritual. So why the intense parallels with Mirri's tent? It's still a sacrifice--death pays for life. Like Lyanna dies giving life to Jon--we assume out of love and duty. Not intending to die, but still--willing sacrifice for his life.

 

But Jon's already had Lyanna pay for his life--he's born with the dead, like the direwolves. Like Ghost. So what's the second sacrifice paying for? His next life. 

 

I think the price has already been paid. Not as a blood ritual, but still a payment--self-sacrifice in the line of duty. We've seen inadvertent sacrifices have power--the execution of Gared and the finding of the wolves. The sacrifice of Lady and Bran's waking up. 

 

But this isn't the sacrifice of an innocent. These men choose to be there. Like Lyanna--gives her life for Jon. Which means this life is paid for. So, his next life? That got paid for, too. Jon just needs to collect. 

 

Bottom line: a different kind of magic. Like Mirri's, but not the ritualistic sacrifice of an innocent. Instead, a duty bound willing sacrifice--that ends up paying for life.

 

 

Not trying to insult you, but you've got all kinds of crazy going on in the above. :blink:  I agree with some points, like death pays for life. Very true, but Rhaego did not pay for Drogo's life. As I stated above Mirri put the spirit of the horse into Drogo. But, Drogo's spirit didn't go anywhere until the funeral pyre opened his bones and his spirit went into a dragon egg.

 

As for the TOJ, I still believe it was just a fever dream of many jumbled events, but it wasn't uncommon for women to die in childbirth, so it's not like she deliberately sacrificed herself so that he could live. It is possible that Jon was delivered after Lyanna died, but we don't know for sure. 

 

Who's life was paid for by the three men (I don't believe they were Kingsguard) at the TOJ? I'm not following you.

 

Mirri did exactly what she set out to do, but she didn't know that Dany would be able to release Rhaego's and Drogo's spirits in that fire and send them into the eggs as well as Mirri's.

 

 

I think that's Ned. 

 

Ned intended to sacrifice his honor for Sansa, not his life. So the sacrifice is unintentional on his part for Sansa.

 

But it immediately starts opening her eyes--like the sacrifice of Lady opens Bran's. The next Sansa POV, when she sees Joff, she thinks how she'd never noticed that his "beautiful" lips looked like worms. She goes on from there--his beauty is gone. She sees him.

 

Granted, this could also be tied to just the psychological shock of Ned's murder--but still, "seeing." So, the Snowflake Communion--a natural progression of Sansa's opening her eyes. An opening paid for by Ned.

 

Like Syrio pays for Arya: ETA--he tells he to open her eyes. After he dies and she escapes, she doesn't dance with the stable boy. She remembers Jon's words and just sticks him. Then, remembering Syrio told her to be unexpected, she goes down into the depths of the castle to escape. She specifically thinks of playing in the crypts with her siblings and how she knew not to be afraid of the flour-covered Jon. She goes down--into a figurative crypt. Like Sansa goes down a spiral into a black and white garden.

 

And Quorin pays for Jon: ETA: He only sees his Sword of the Morning epiphany after killing Quorin.

 

Edited for clarity.

 

 

The above has more details that I can agree with. I like the idea of Ned sacrificing his honor for Sansa to open her eyes, but less so that Lady paid for Bran. I agree that that's how it reads in the books, but I'm not sure what was going on with that. I guess that's a possible explanation.

 

I think the Snowflake Communion has more to do with Sansa embracing her Stark lineage that an opening of her eyes.

 

I think it's a stretch that to say that Syrio paid for Arya. Yes, Syrio fought long enough for her to make a getaway, but she was never mortally wounded, so I think this is a difference in semantics.

 

I do like the idea of Sansa's decent down the spiral starcase being a parallel of going into the crypts. This one rings true.

 

I thought you said Jon saw the Sword of the Morning constellation after being with Ygritte in the cave? Now it's after killing the Halfhand?

[Sly Wren]

 

That's certainly a strong possibility but I'd be happier if they were more closely linked in time.

I'm playing with this as I go--but the idea of "opening eyes." Not just the third eye, Tree-Bran tells Ghost-Jon he can see, but first he must open his eyes. Reached down and touches him.

 

It's in the next Jon POV or so that Jon kills Quorin. But it takes a while after that for Jon to see the Sword of the Morning epiphany. And he still doesn't know what it means.

 

Same with Sansa--she's losing time. It's a surreal experience. She knows she wants to be home--remembers Winterfell perfectly, instinctively.

 

But it's a process--like Bran's learning to Warg. Learning to be a greenseer. So, if it were a blood magic ritual like the dragons--that's a sacrifice of another in a blood-magic fire ritual. That's instant--and comes back to bite you (Mirri's ritual bites Dany hard).

 

But this kind of sacrifice--willing or unknowing--we've got traces of that in Game chapter 1--the traces of blood sacrifice with the execution, the finding of the direwolves, the fact that these direwolves were born among the dead. Seems like even inadvertent or unknowing or self-sacrifice works. Without the ritual. And it seems to take longer--and perhaps bite less.

 

Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

Not trying to insult you, but you've got all kinds of crazy going on in the above. :blink:  I agree with some points, like death pays for life. Very true, but Rhaego did not pay for Drogo's life. As I stated above Mirri put the spirit of the horse into Drogo. But, Drogo's spirit didn't go anywhere until the funeral pyre opened his bones and his spirit went into a dragon egg.

 

As for the TOJ, I still believe it was just a fever dream of many jumbled events, but it wasn't uncommon for women to die in childbirth, so it's not like she deliberately sacrificed herself so that he could live. It is possible that Jon was delivered after Lyanna died, but we don't know for sure. 

 

Who's life was paid for by the three men (I don't believe they were Kingsguard) at the TOJ? I'm not following you.

 

Mirri did exactly what she set out to do, but she didn't know that Dany would be able to release Rhaego's and Drogo's spirits in that fire and send them into the eggs as well as Mirri's.

 

1. Never worry about insulting me.  :) I'm hashing this out as I go. I'm sure well over half of what I'm slogging through has got to be madness or stupidity. No worries.

 

2. On the toj--I agree flat out that that's how Ned sees it and it's his POV. And Lyanna died in childbirth--like the direwolf mother. Not at all an intentional sacrifice. But Mirri never says "intentional ritualized death pays for life." And In the first chapter of Game, they are even more wary of the direwolf cubs because they were born amongst the dead. Dead paid for their lives. Same with Dany. 

 

But Kingmonkey's essay http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/134726-the-puppets-of-ice-and-fire/

and Pretty Pig's http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/75/inversion-fun-mmd-tent-ritual

I'm not sold, but they both lay out REALLY clear parallels between the two scenes--7 against 3 is just the start.

 

I'm still slogging this out in my head--but no one at the tower would know they war engaging in a ritual. Any more than Ned seems to know he's feeding blood to the Winterfell tree when he cleans Ice. Or that the execution of Gared has echoes of a sacrifice. But the toj and tent scenes are similar. 

 

3. They are sacrificed for Jon. He's born among the dead. But this would probably have to mean that Arthur is Jon's father. In the tent, the son pays for the father. At the tower, the father sacrifices for the son. Which is one reason I'm not sold yet--I'm not sure I'm ready to let go of Rhaegar=daddy.

 

4. Agree on Mirri--it is intended. The son paid for the father. But NOT as Dany intended. 

 

 

The above has more details that I can agree with. I like the idea of Ned sacrificing his honor for Sansa to open her eyes, but less so that Lady paid for Bran. I agree that that's how it reads in the books, but I'm not sure what was going on with that. I guess that's a possible explanation.

 

I think the Snowflake Communion has more to do with Sansa embracing her Stark lineage that an opening of her eyes.

 

I think it's a stretch that to say that Syrio paid for Arya. Yes, Syrio fought long enough for her to make a getaway, but she was never mortally wounded, so I think this is a difference in semantics.

 

I do like the idea of Sansa's decent down the spiral starcase being a parallel of going into the crypts. This one rings true.

 

I thought you said Jon saw the Sword of the Morning constellation after being with Ygritte in the cave? Now it's after killing the Halfhand?

 

1. I buy the Lady and Bran juxtaposition because of the first chapter--incidental/unknown sacrifice of Gared. But fully agree that the books haven't pinned it down yet.

 

2. And completely agree that the communion is a connecting with her heritage. Sansa remembering. But she also loses time--that seems like something more.

 

On the  staircase:  :cheers:

 

3. Fair enough on Syrio---I was meaning a sacrifice for her eventual sight. She's in process, too. But, again, she goes down a spiral stair, remembering the crypts.

 

4. On Jon--the epiphany argument is also part of process. Coming out of the cave after his dark night of the soul--I think he's "rewarded" with the vision. But he still doesn't understand it. His eyes are in process of opening (to uses an awkward metaphor).

 

As I said to BC, am wondering about the order: Ghost-Jon sees Tree-Bran who tells him to see. Quorin insists Jon kill him--he does. Takes some time, a lot of other elements--but Jon starts to see. . . . process. 

 

Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

I wonder if Jon-in-Ghost did meet Sansa-in-Lady in the underworld, could that "kickstart" Sansa into remembering her lost time? Or is it possible that it's only the readers that lose some time - if only for George to not give away with Lady/Sansa what might happen with Ghost/Jon? Cause I can see the narrative purpose of establishing living Stark/living wolf warging before throwing in warging in the underworld! So in that case, Sansa has to "lose time" from the readers perspective, or else Sansa's POV might give the game away too soon. Just a random thought - I think I'm leaning towards my first thought, with Jon/Ghost kick starting Sansa's memories of warging with dead Lady.

I like this. Like Ghost-Jon's vision of Tree-Bran--seems to encourage him. Make the "smell of death" in the underworld less frightening. Because it's his brother, no matter how strange they look.

 

Plus, at that moment, Bran and Jon are both white and red.

 

The idea of Sansa's waking up via her siblings--Bran and/or Jon--they are a pack. Makes sense.

 

And if Jon might meet family, well there's a lot of family to be had in the underworld! Ned, Robb, Grey Wind as well as Lady. Not to mention his probably biological parents and dozens of randomly inserted ancestors of various families :). It could be a very interesting visit!

As for Ned...what are the chances he had a dog or something as a kid? I dunno! That's the best I could come up with. I always put Ned's down to grief, stress, exhaustion, etc. Fatigue and stress do bad things to your memory!

Yeah--I think Ned's lost time is misery. But Sansa's not miserable in the snow garden. Something else is going on.

 

And agree re: family. Jon's been dreaming of those crypts for a while. But he says he's not afraid for the Kings of Winter. He's afraid of "what's waiting." So, am thinking it will not be entirely happy family time.  :)

[Melifeather]

Sly Wren, when you say Lyannas death paid for Jon, are you implying that Jon would have died if she had lived?

Also, I've said this twice already but It keeps getting missed... Rhaego did not pay for his fathers life. Drogo died but Mirri made it look like he was alive by using the horse's life.