Will Cersei x Jaime be depicted as a tragic star-crossed romance?

[Metheos]

The novels that season 5 adapted (AFFC/ADWD) portrayed Jaime deciding that his relationship with Cersei was toxic for a number of reasons: she had sex with several other people, she used/manipulated him to achieve her own ends, she didn't respect what he wanted out of life (trying to get him to be Hand of the King and to forget about being a knight). This goes hand in hand with his opinion of her as a ruler: she refused to listen to good advice, she did a horrible job raising her children, and she was generally selfish and amoral. By the end of those novels, it was basically impossible to dispute that both of them (especially) Jaime would have been much better off if the relationship had never occurred, and that from his perspective the relationship was clearly down and out.

 

Season 5, by contrast, did not do any of this, and in many ways did the opposite. Cersei's cheating is reduced and Jaime never is upset by it, her lack of respect for his desire to being a true knight is eliminated, and her incompetence, ego, and vanity are hugely reduced. (Of course, it doesn't help that the show seemingly wants/expects viewers to agree with Cersei's stupid complaints about Jaime's supposed culpabiity in the present situations of Myrcella and Tommen, just like it expected viewers to be impressed when Cersei threatened to go public with the incest). Basically, Jaime still has a very positive opinion of her. What I'm starting to suspect is that the show is going to portray their love as a true romance that was ruined by society's "intolerance". There was Ellaria giving that speech about how you can't choose who you love, with her explicitly referencing Jaime's relationship with Cersei. There was Myrcella fully accepting that Jaime was her father, to the point of being happy about the relationship (ridiculously so IMO; apparently living in fear of being executed as an abomination isn't a big deal for her). Even going back to the prophecy scene at the beginning of the season, they removed mention of the valonqar / younger brother, opening up the possibility that Jaime won't kill Cersei in the show (which I think he'll end up doing in the books). At the point in the books where Jaime is becoming less interested in continuing his relationship with Cersei, show Jaime is being encouraged to embrace it. Combine this with the general whitewashing of Cersei, and I can see her eventual death being portrayed as a tragic moment, with Jaime at her side wishing he could have loved her openly. (If nothing else, Jaime rationally deciding that Cersei was bad for him might risk making her look bad, and if season 5 has shown me anything, it's that Benioff and Weiss would sooner play jump-rope barefoot on broken glass than portray Cersei negatively).

 

If it weren't for those scenes with Ellaria and Myrcella, I would have assumed (like most people) that the creators wouldn't even bother trying to portray brother-sister incest in a sympathetic light. However, I am assuming that the Ellaria scene was for a purpose (even though she was a villain). I'd like to hear your opinions; am I in crackpot territory, or are D&D setting the stage for Cersei and Jaime's relationship to be portrayed as true love that was unfairly quashed by society?

[Richard Writhen]

If Jaime really is the valonquar, the murder/suicide angle really is viable, so yes.

 

 

 

 

 

Would be effed up, but fate is like that... :crying:

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think the Cercei Jamie relationship might be pushed to the fore this season. It was lacking in the last one, but it could easily be moved. Jamie is coming back to KL with a dead daughter, Cercei has probably now lost her mind since the WOS and will blame Jamie for not being there to help her. 

[Lady Vorkosigan]

You could see it this way. You could also see it as, instead of the long, slow mental divorce Jaime goes through in AFFC, they're setting up a really compressed version of it. Myrcella's dead, Jaime realizes he wanted to be a father to her and now never can be, Jaime finds out about her cheating with their underage cousin once it's already gone hugely public rather than privately where he can't confront her. That is *out* now. She has confessed. That is what he's returning to. And Lancel is conveniently located in KL, so Jaime can seek him out there. And having already gone through the WoS, the Cersei he's returning to will be, on the outside, the broken loon she was on the inside in her POV. He was gone for all that in the books.

So, seeing all that, it creates a MUCH bigger "breakup" opportunity in show. Jaime broke their brother out of prison. Cersei will expect Jaime to do everything he can to save her, including sacrificing his own life so they can die together like she wants, if it comes to that. Jaime meanwhile will be slammed with all this information AND a visibly crazy, shaved, ranting Cersei who is desperate to get herself back into her position of power, which means power over Tommen....at the exact moment when Jaime is feeling the impact of never being a father to his children. And Kevan is still alive. The most loving thing he can do for his one remaining child is to ensure that his toxic mother cannot get to him, so I can see him refusing to do for her what he did for Tyrion, which will enrage her further. And Jaime will likely figure out quickly exactly who that giant is under that helm. Who even knows what he'll think about that.

So, the Jaime who rides out of KL at that point would be the Jaime who just burned that letter. Done with her, but in a way I'd find more satisfying. I enjoyed watching the scales fall from his eyes along the Road to Damascus/Riverrun over the course of AFFC, but this way makes better TV.

[kit_hepburn]

are D&D setting the stage for Cersei and Jaime's relationship to be portrayed as true love that was unfairly quashed by society?

 

No.

 

Cersei's cheating is reduced and Jaime never is upset by it

 

Show-Jaime doesn't know about it yet. 

 

Basically, Jaime still has a very positive opinion of her.

 

If you rewatch Season 5, he doesn't really, not particularly. A lot of people talk at him about Cersei, but he doesn't really say much in return, except to wryly observe that Bronn probably shouldn't trust his sister, and that he doubts Cersei likes anyone except her children (including him) The "in the arms of the woman I love" line throws people off I think, when I suspect it was mainly meant to be a type of ironic foreshadowing this show loves so damn much. Or just an opportunity for Bronn to get Jaime to question it - "Does she want the same thing?" 

 

What I'm starting to suspect is that the show is going to portray their love as a true romance that was ruined by society's "intolerance". There was Ellaria giving that speech about how you can't choose who you love, with her explicitly referencing Jaime's relationship with Cersei. There was Myrcella fully accepting that Jaime was her father, to the point of being happy about the relationship

 

That Ellaria speech was misdirection, both for Jaime and for the audience so we wouldn't expect what she was going to do to Myrcella. It also gave a small reason why Myrcella was so accepting (because in Dorne, where she's been living for so many years, they give the appearance of being totally cool with all relationships). Jaime's "we don't choose who we love" mantra is going to fall apart; he could barely justify it as reasoning when he was trying to talk to Myrcella at the end there. It is not like this show to give a character a catchphrase that won't be totally subverted.

 

You could also see it as, instead of the long, slow mental divorce Jaime goes through in AFFC, they're setting up a really compressed version of it. Myrcella's dead, Jaime realizes he wanted to be a father to her and now never can be, Jaime finds out about her cheating with their underage cousin once it's already gone hugely public rather than privately where he can't confront her. That is *out* now. She has confessed. That is what he's returning to. And Lancel is conveniently located in KL, so Jaime can seek him out there. And having already gone through the WoS, the Cersei he's returning to will be, on the outside, the broken loon she was on the inside in her POV. He was gone for all that in the books. 

 

Or, you know, all of this. :)

[Swamp Dweller]

Yeah I agree that the show seems to have set things up for a Jamie/Cersei "breakup" in S6. As mentioned, after the walk of shame and then finding out about Myrcella she will go off the deep end and once Jaime finds out about Lancel he will finally be disillusioned with her and their relationship and will hopefully end up in the Riverlands, which the show seems to be heading back to next season, and/or meet back up with Brienne and get his arc moving forward again.

Yeah, and I get what the OP means about the whole Ellaria scene, doesn't seem like they put scenes in usually unless they have a purpose but speaking to that, you could also wonder why they added in the scene of Jaime longingly staring at Tarth and the very ambiguous statement regarding wanting to die in the arms of the woman he loves (https://mobile.twitter.com/nikolajcw/status/624201743145017345).
Was listening to some commentary yesterday and GRRM and one of the writers of the Bear and Maiden Fair episode were talking about them trying to plant seeds for a potential romantic relationship between Jaime and Brienne and then with the whole scene at the wedding with Cersei calling out Brienne's feelings for Jaime, the show has not been very subtle about exploring something there. So that's another reason I think the split between J/C will happen fairly early on next season in a much more condensed and compressed way as Lady Vorkosigan said.

[Le Cygne]

I think they are telling a romance for Jaime and Brienne, just very, very badly.

[Annara Snow]

The novels that season 5 adapted (AFFC/ADWD) portrayed Jaime deciding that his relationship with Cersei was toxic for a number of reasons: she had sex with several other people, she used/manipulated him to achieve her own ends, she didn't respect what he wanted out of life (trying to get him to be Hand of the King and to forget about being a knight). This goes hand in hand with his opinion of her as a ruler: she refused to listen to good advice, she did a horrible job raising her children, and she was generally selfish and amoral. By the end of those novels, it was basically impossible to dispute that both of them (especially) Jaime would have been much better off if the relationship had never occurred, and that from his perspective the relationship was clearly down and out.
 
Season 5, by contrast, did not do any of this, and in many ways did the opposite. Cersei's cheating is reduced and Jaime never is upset by it, her lack of respect for his desire to being a true knight is eliminated, and her incompetence, ego, and vanity are hugely reduced. (Of course, it doesn't help that the show seemingly wants/expects viewers to agree with Cersei's stupid complaints about Jaime's supposed culpabiity in the present situations of Myrcella and Tommen, just like it expected viewers to be impressed when Cersei threatened to go public with the incest). Basically, Jaime still has a very positive opinion of her. What I'm starting to suspect is that the show is going to portray their love as a true romance that was ruined by society's "intolerance". There was Ellaria giving that speech about how you can't choose who you love, with her explicitly referencing Jaime's relationship with Cersei. There was Myrcella fully accepting that Jaime was her father, to the point of being happy about the relationship (ridiculously so IMO; apparently living in fear of being executed as an abomination isn't a big deal for her). Even going back to the prophecy scene at the beginning of the season, they removed mention of the valonqar / younger brother, opening up the possibility that Jaime won't kill Cersei in the show (which I think he'll end up doing in the books). At the point in the books where Jaime is becoming less interested in continuing his relationship with Cersei, show Jaime is being encouraged to embrace it. Combine this with the general whitewashing of Cersei, and I can see her eventual death being portrayed as a tragic moment, with Jaime at her side wishing he could have loved her openly. (If nothing else, Jaime rationally deciding that Cersei was bad for him might risk making her look bad, and if season 5 has shown me anything, it's that Benioff and Weiss would sooner play jump-rope barefoot on broken glass than portray Cersei negatively).
 
If it weren't for those scenes with Ellaria and Myrcella, I would have assumed (like most people) that the creators wouldn't even bother trying to portray brother-sister incest in a sympathetic light. However, I am assuming that the Ellaria scene was for a purpose (even though she was a villain). I'd like to hear your opinions; am I in crackpot territory, or are D&D setting the stage for Cersei and Jaime's relationship to be portrayed as true love that was unfairly quashed by society?

It would seem so at this point and that would be a logical assumption... If it weren't for one crucial fact you're overlooking: if season 5 has taught us anything, it's that one should never, never assume that there will be any continuity on the show between seasons, or even episodes, that characterizations will be consistent, or that storylines will make any sense. (Look at Sansa in season 4 and then season 5!)

Thus, there is no way to be sure what will happen on the show; being devoid of narrative logic or logic in general helps it be more shocking, which is what the showrunners obviously care about the most. If they decide that it will be really shocking for Jaime to kill Cersei, for instance, it will happen, even if it is not set up at all in the show and show!Jaime has no motivation to do it (and if it happens, they can always use "it's in the books!" as excuse). Or maybe Jaime randomly goes to Dragonstone to besiege it for some reason and gets burned to crisp, or travels to Braavos for some reason and gets killed by Arya because she's running out of people to kill and "it will affect us more if it's someone we know". Who knows. Anything is possible. :dunno:

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

It would seem so at this point and that would be a logical assumption... If it weren't for one crucial fact you're overlooking: if season 5 has taught us anything, it's that one should never, never assume that there will be any continuity on the show between seasons, or even episodes, that characterizations will be consistent, or that storylines will make any sense. (Look at Sansa in season 4 and then season 5!)

Thus, there is no way to be sure what will happen on the show; being devoid of narrative logic or logic in general helps it be more shocking, which is what the showrunners obviously care about the most. If they decide that it will be really shocking for Jaime to kill Cersei, for instance, it will happen, even if it is not set up at all in the show and show!Jaime has no motivation to do it (and if it happens, they can always use "it's in the books!" as excuse). Or maybe Jaime randomly goes to Dragonstone to besiege it for some reason and gets burned to crisp, or travels to Braavos for some reason and gets killed by Arya because she's running out of people to kill and "it will affect us more if it's someone we know". Who knows. Anything is possible. :dunno:

Well clearly that's untrue, just rant really.

[Richard Writhen]

Well everyone would love for Jaime to just "get it", ditch his cheating twin and go marry Brienne or something, but is that Martinish? Prolly not.

 

 

 

 

It's gonna be more like Brokeback Mountain, " I try but I just can't quit you, Carol!"

[Lady Vorkosigan]

I don't think the removal of the valonqar prophecy means anything at all. If Jaime is the one who kills her, it doesn't add anything to the show to include the prophecy. Cersei hasn't told anyone about it, so the "gotcha" would take place entirely in her head. That's a lot of overhead, introducing a prophecy for a gotcha that we can never actually fully appreciate, like we can in the books. 

 

I think that the person who kills her remains the same. If Jaime, the viewing audience will still recognize what it means for Cersei to be killed by the person she thinks of as actually being herself, incapable of any action that she doesn't control and sanction. If some other form of "little brother," same thing...it doesn't enhance the viewing experience, including valonqar. 

 

Now, they kept "younger, more beautiful," but I can see why. It gives her a reason to be aggressive toward Margaery, which helped Cersei's downfall along. And since most people do believe that Jaime is the valonqar - the last person she'd ever expect, but the one that's been in front of her all along - it will be interesting to see who the younger, more beautiful person is, especially since the phrasing they switched to in the show put a bit more of the emphasis on "another" being a noun, not an adjective modifying "queen." It convinced me more than ever that it's Brienne, since they very quickly reminded the audience that Brienne's nickname is "Brienne the Beauty." Maybe they thought, if the prophecies were both similar (both relying on "last person she'd suspect" rather than obvious people she suspects), they needed to trim it down to just the one that involved the most other characters. There's just a lot more drama and interest in YMB than there is in valonqar.

[The Amun Ra]

Well clearly that's untrue, just rant really.

I agree. It would not hurt the ranters/book purists if they sometimes use expressions like "In my opinion" or "From my perspective".

[TepidHands]

I don't think the removal of the valonqar prophecy means anything at all. If Jaime is the one who kills her, it doesn't add anything to the show to include the prophecy. Cersei hasn't told anyone about it, so the "gotcha" would take place entirely in her head. That's a lot of overhead, introducing a prophecy for a gotcha that we can never actually fully appreciate, like we can in the books. 

 

I think that the person who kills her remains the same. If Jaime, the viewing audience will still recognize what it means for Cersei to be killed by the person she thinks of as actually being herself, incapable of any action that she doesn't control and sanction. If some other form of "little brother," same thing...it doesn't enhance the viewing experience, including valonqar. 

 

Now, they kept "younger, more beautiful," but I can see why. It gives her a reason to be aggressive toward Margaery, which helped Cersei's downfall along. And since most people do believe that Jaime is the valonqar - the last person she'd ever expect, but the one that's been in front of her all along - it will be interesting to see who the younger, more beautiful person is, especially since the phrasing they switched to in the show put a bit more of the emphasis on "another" being a noun, not an adjective modifying "queen." It convinced me more than ever that it's Brienne, since they very quickly reminded the audience that Brienne's nickname is "Brienne the Beauty." Maybe they thought, if the prophecies were both similar (both relying on "last person she'd suspect" rather than obvious people she suspects), they needed to trim it down to just the one that involved the most other characters. There's just a lot more drama and interest in YMB than there is in valonqar.

Valonqar, though, is what fueled her paranoia about Tyrion. It wasn't just hating him for being a dwarf, her mother dying while birthing him, and suspecting he killed Joffrey and their father and the inconvenient whore. She's been paranoid about Tyrion from the time of the prophecy, and that informed a lot of her mistakes in King's Landing.

 

I just wish they'd had her be just a wee bit more unstable; right now she's just a poor traumatized mom who's lost her remaining son to a scheming cougar, instead of a monomaniacal, paranoid person who uses sex to get men to do what she wants and sends women to Qyburn for experimentation. 

[Annara Snow]

I agree. It would not hurt the ranters/book purists if they sometimes use expressions like "In my opinion" or "From my perspective".

Because, clearly, otherwise you'd have no idea it's my opinion.

[The Amun Ra]

Because, clearly, otherwise you'd have no idea it's my opinion.

I thought you are ignoring me... Or have you already forgotten? Well, I can't blame you...

 

It's not about not knowing it is your opinion. The comments are much nicer if people keep their head cool. You have clear arguments, I respect that, but your comments are a bit... harsh or even insulting at some times (to the show not to forum members) and it usually sounds that they are facts instead of just being your opinion. And expressions like "Carol Lannister" and "Ramsay - Mary Sue" are not necessary at all. Are you a fan of The Cultural Vacuum? Well, that site exceeded even Linda's posts.

[dsug]

Book readers are just salty because they're no longer relevant. Next.

I think they're break up will be mutual. She will be mad at him because he's essentially let two of her children die (it's not his fault. But since when was Cersei rational?). Jaime will be disgusted at the psycho she's become and be mad at her for banging Lancel.

Maybe he won't kill her.

[Le Cygne]

I hate to read too much into their lines, but it would be cool if he uses the "We don't choose who we love" line on Cersei when he tells her it's over. Maybe they are building up to that, I don't know. I don't care for the changes they made to the story, it was a really good one in the books.

 

He had already been rethinking the Cersei thing while he was locked up in the books, you could see that he'd been working through the things she'd said and done. And then there was this contrast, right in front of him, with Brienne. He really broke up with Cersei when he refused to kill Tyrion, in the sept scene, he stopped doing what she wanted, and he knew that meant the end.

 

And then when he refused to let her give him a blow job in the White Sword Tower. Not here. And he wrote that Brienne saved him in the White Book.There was this beautiful, gradual awareness of his feelings for Brienne. And when he got that letter, you just knew what the answer would be. That was a great scene. I guess they could still use I dreamed of you at some point.

 

The one thing I think they'd be nuts to lose is the Red Ronnet scene. They could still adapt that somehow. So much was lost, now they have to recreate a love story, instead of using the book story, and they just aren't good at romance, at all.

[kit_hepburn]

Jaime and Brienne's show story is very blatantly a love story, and I have no issues with it. The actors have great chemistry. And we're probably only 3/4 of the way through their tale (as I don't believe they're going to die) so I'll consider overall whether they've been telling a "good" or "bad" romance when they reunite. It's good so far.

 

Also, in my opinion, Jaime's not going to kill Cersei, nor is he going to die with her (in the show anyway). They're just going to leave each other. I'd bet money on it.

[Swamp Dweller]

I hate to read too much into their lines, but it would be cool if he uses the "We don't choose who we love" line on Cersei when he tells her it's over. Maybe they are building up to that, I don't know. I don't care for the changes they made to the story, it was a really good one in the books.

 

He had already been rethinking the Cersei thing while he was locked up in the books, you could see that he'd been working through the things she'd said and done. And then there was this contrast, right in front of him, with Brienne. He really broke up with Cersei when he refused to kill Tyrion, in the sept scene, he stopped doing what she wanted, and he knew that meant the end.

 

And then when he refused to let her give him a blow job in the White Sword Tower. Not here. And he wrote that Brienne saved him in the White Book.There was this beautiful, gradual awareness of his feelings for Brienne. And when he got that letter, you just knew what the answer would be. That was a great scene. I guess they could still use I dreamed of you at some point.

 

The one thing I think they'd be nuts to lose is the Red Ronnet scene. They could still adapt that somehow. So much was lost, now they have to recreate a love story, instead of using the book story, and they just aren't good at romance, at all.

:agree: Yes, all of this!! Would be such poetic justice for him to use that line on Cersei.

 

And yes, the Red Ronnet scene is such an important scene! I hope they adapt it somehow because it's really indicative of how his feelings have changed towards Brienne to the point where he has so much respect for her and is defensive and somewhat possessive of her ;)  It's such a fist pump moment in general for Jaime's character, would be such a shame to leave it out!

 

Jaime and Brienne's show story is very blatantly a love story, and I have no issues with it. The actors have great chemistry. And we're probably only 3/4 of the way through their tale (as I don't believe they're going to die) so I'll consider overall whether they've been telling a "good" or "bad" romance when they reunite. It's good so far.

 

Also, in my opinion, Jaime's not going to kill Cersei, nor is he going to die with her (in the show anyway). They're just going to leave each other. I'd bet money on it.

 

I also don't think Jaime will kill Cersei. Many of those who think this do so because of a couple different reasons. 1) The Valonqar prophecy and him technically being her little brother, 2) Them both thinking they would die together just as they came into the world together (Jaime ASOS & Cersei AFFC) and him killing her would be an ideal setting for their homicide/suicide and 3) it just seems right up Martin's alley in regards to how totally fucked up it would be.  Which I honestly can't disagree with those points!

 

But I was just reading something the other day about how Cersei, despite her thinking her self so smart and cunning, is wrong about almost everything.  And I think this is one of those assumptions she makes (that her and Jaime will die together) that will prove wrong and she will seal her own fate and die alone. That is part of what his story arc is about, becoming his own person and realizing he and Cersei are not the same and that their fates are not necessarily bound.  I feel it would be a pretty counterproductive ending for him if they came back together in that way after all his progress. Just my opinion though :P

[kit_hepburn]

1) The Valonqar prophecy and him technically being her little brother, 2) Them both thinking they would die together just as they came into the world together (Jaime ASOS & Cersei AFFC) and him killing her would be an ideal setting for their homicide/suicide and 3) it just seems right up Martin's alley in regards to how totally fucked up it would be.

 

1) Ugh. The solution of Jaime as valonqar is such vomitously bad writing I can't abide by it as an outcome. Ever. The entire prophecy is sketchy to begin with, but it only would work for me if Cersei ends up being the master of her own demise - if it quite literally is a self-fulfilling prophecy that actually has nothing to do with Jaime or anyone else. Which is why I'm glad the show left out the "valonqar" part, because it's by far the clunkiest element of that prophecy anyway.

 

2) Them both thinking it (Cersei especially) assures me that it won't ever happen that way.

 

3) Really? It seems like a rather basic solution to me, really precious and downright cute (you know... as cute as murder/suicides storylines can be). Too neat for this type of story, I think. 

 

That is part of what his story arc is about, becoming his own person and realizing he and Cersei are not the same and that their fates are not necessarily bound.  I feel it would be a pretty counterproductive ending for him if they came back together in that way after all his progress.

 

Agree.