Will Cersei x Jaime be depicted as a tragic star-crossed romance?

[Swamp Dweller]

Yeah I mean, those seemed to be the main arguments I often read for people being so convinced Jaime will be the one to kill her. But I find it a little too convenient as well. Personally I'm still more convinced that Cersei is just delusional and wrong about everything.

[Le Cygne]

:agree: Yes, all of this!! Would be such poetic justice for him to use that line on Cersei.

 

And yes, the Red Ronnet scene is such an important scene! I hope they adapt it somehow because it's really indicative of how his feelings have changed towards Brienne to the point where he has so much respect for her and is defensive and somewhat possessive of her ;)  It's such a fist pump moment in general for Jaime's character, would be such a shame to leave it out!

 

I wonder how they could do that scene, though. They won't add him. So it could just be someone who was at the bearpit, and I guess he says something nasty. But I doubt he's going back to Harrenhal, so not even that. What if he runs into Randyl Tarly? And he says something nasty? No, I guess that wouldn't work. Bronn! Maybe Bronn says something horrible. But that would chill the bromance, smacking him with his golden hand.

[Annara Snow]

I thought you are ignoring me... Or have you already forgotten? Well, I can't blame you...
 
It's not about not knowing it is your opinion. The comments are much nicer if people keep their head cool. You have clear arguments, I respect that, but your comments are a bit... harsh or even insulting at some times (to the show not to forum members) and it usually sounds that they are facts instead of just being your opinion. And expressions like "Carol Lannister" and "Ramsay - Mary Sue" are not necessary at all. Are you a fan of The Cultural Vacuum? Well, that site exceeded even Linda's posts.

I was ignoring you, I didn't put you on ignore and I forgot who you are. Now I remember, you're that rape apologist. Well, no surprise you dislike Cultural Vacuum. I bet you're also one of those who use the phrase "Tumblr feminists" and the word feminist in general in belief it's something bad and insulting.

Of course I love the posts if Cultural Vacuum and GotGifsandMusings, they are both brilliant.

And that's all I have to say to you, discussions with rape apologists are pointless.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

You have a point. But knowing D&D after the walk of shame and Myrcella's death Cersei will probably go crazy in the next season. So we will have the same plot points as in the book, even though there was no setup for it. But still, conidering they don't want to portray Lena too negatively and the twincest justifications in s5, anything is possible. I still don't understand why Myrcella was happy about Jaime being her dad. It's like season 1 doesn't exist.

[The Amun Ra]

I was ignoring you, I didn't put you on ignore and I forgot who you are. Now I remember, you're that rape apologist. Well, no surprise you dislike Cultural Vacuum. I bet you're also one of those who use the phrase "Tumblr feminists" and the word feminist in general in belief it's something bad and insulting.

Of course I love the posts if Cultural Vacuum and GotGifsandMusings, they are both brilliant.

And that's all I have to say to you, discussions with rape apologists are pointless.

I know you are ignoring and I don't even expect you to answer me but let me give you this final response:

 

First of all, don't call me rape apologist. Sansa 's wedding night is not rape by medieval standards. Even GoT wiki (which is led by The Dragon Demands who is very much in favor of the books and westeros.org) does not list it as rape. Sansa clearly expected that her marriage had to be consumated. Yes, it was distrubng. Yes, it was more violent than Sansa had expected. I don't know if you have watched The Sopranos but there is a rape which is very graphic and much worse than Sansa's wedding consumation, not to mention that the scene doesn't add anything to the story. In Tudors, the king's sister Lady Margaret is forced to marry the king of Portugal who is eighty years old! And their wedding night is clearly shown on screen. Lady Margaret is very uncomfortable during the whole scene but does that regard the scene as rape? She surely expected it....

 

Second of all, I never used the phrases Tumblr feminists. As soon as I discovered those pages, which I can't describe them without being insulting, I put them on ignore list so I would never find them again. I am a hater of hatred. I don't support any kind of hatred. I always try do be nice and I show respect to those who can cleary argument their opinion (including you - at least not while ago) even if I completely disagree with them but I also expect them to show some respect to me. Like I said, your comments are always so rude and you present them as facts instead of your opinion, like your opinion is always the right one. You sound that you feel superior to those who like watching GoT but you still hate-watch it apparently to satisfy your needs.

 

But if you really support sites like The Cultural Vacuum or Linda's posts, you are really not a person for discussion, despite your arguments. Just ignore me and I will ignore you.

[Swamp Dweller]

 

I wonder how they could do that scene, though. They won't add him. So it could just be someone who was at the bearpit, and I guess he says something nasty. But I doubt he's going back to Harrenhal, so not even that. What if he runs into Randyl Tarly? And he says something nasty? No, I guess that wouldn't work. Bronn! Maybe Bronn says something horrible. But that would chill the bromance, smacking him with his golden hand.

 

Not sure how they would adapt it. But the one major problem I would have with them giving it to an existing characters is that then it would just be Jaime bitch slapping someone for disrespecting Brienne, and wouldn't be Jaime bitch slapping Brienne's former betroathed for disrespecting her, which is what makes it all the more awesome. Plus seeing Jaime's surprise to find out she had been betroathed and also adding the possible element of jealousy.  I guess if they cast a Hyle Hunt type character to join in on the Riverlands adventure, they could merge the characters (like a composite of all the dudes who treated Brienne badly) but don't know if they even really need him either.

[Le Cygne]

Not sure how they would adapt it. But the one major problem I would have with them giving it to an existing characters is that then it would just be Jaime bitch slapping someone for disrespecting Brienne, and wouldn't be Jaime bitch slapping Brienne's former betroathed for disrespecting her, which is what makes it all the more awesome. Plus seeing Jaime's surprise to find out she had been betroathed and also adding the possible element of jealousy.  I guess if they cast a Hyle Hunt type character to join in on the Riverlands adventure, they could merge the characters (like a composite of all the dudes who treated Brienne badly) but don't know if they even really need him either.

 

True, I was trying to find a way to make it happen, but there's no way with all the changes. I think they will write their own story for them entirely.

 

I do think they will use "I dreamed of you" however. That's too good a line, even they know it. They don't even have to show his dream.

 

Also, I think viewers will love it as much as readers. It's classic, and it's so unexpectedly romantic, coming from him, that was the best part.

[kit_hepburn]

"I dreamed of you" is one of those lines that sounds great in theory, and because it follows an *actual*, literal, complex dream in the books, but on TV would sound really trite. For me it's the "I'm not worried Harry, I'm with you" equivalent in Harry Potter - a line that fans really, really wanted to hear in the films, but I was secretly glad they excluded because it just wouldn't have worked in the medium.

 

They could give the smack to literally any other character and it would be fine. We don't need a former betrothed to make Jaime jealous. NCW plays Jaime's infatuation with Brienne just splendidly with his facial expressions alone, so it's clear that he's already into her. They're already in love, they just have too many other factors in the way, currently.

[The Amun Ra]

"I dreamed of you" is one of those lines that sounds great in theory, and because it follows an *actual*, literal, complex dream in the books, but on TV would sound really trite. For me it's the "I'm not worried Harry, I'm with you" equivalent in Harry Potter - a line that fans really, really wanted to hear in the films, but I was secretly glad they excluded because it just wouldn't have worked in the medium.

 

They could give the smack to literally any other character and it would be fine. We don't need a former betrothed to make Jaime jealous. NCW plays Jaime's infatuation with Brienne just splendidly with his facial expressions alone, so it's clear that he's already into her. They're already in love, they just have too many other factors in the way, currently.

Well said. That's why sometimes direct adaptations are not a good idea (I don't specifically mean GoT). That's my issue with Cersei in book 4. While I don't see her as one dimensional, her behavior and lines are sometimes so cartoonish (I am the queen) that I couldnt take her seriously on TV if she was portrayed that way.

[Swamp Dweller]

They could give the smack to literally any other character and it would be fine. We don't need a former betrothed to make Jaime jealous. NCW plays Jaime's infatuation with Brienne just splendidly with his facial expressions alone, so it's clear that he's already into her. They're already in love, they just have too many other factors in the way, currently.

 
I mean, if they adapt it at all I'm sure it will be a satisfying scene.  But I personally think Jaime smacking her former betrothed would make a difference. I think Jaime being surprise to find out that she had been betrothed (thrice in fact) is important and is probably something he never really thought about (plus could potentially lend itself to some interesting dialogue between J & B at a later point).  And yeah, NCW is amazing and it's obvious Jaime really cares for her but to see an outward expression of jealousy would be more amusing and so Jaime. Plus if he hasn't already admitted it to himself, it may be a catalyst for him to finally realize and act on how he feels rather than just giving her heart eyes all the damn time  :love:

http://longhishortgoodbye.tumblr.com/post/118174837231/the-kingslayers-other-nickname

[kit_hepburn]

I mean, I don't know, this is just a matter of my personal preference really, so keep that in mind. I just think the way they've framed it in the show, the thing that's standing between them is his relationship with Cersei most of all and the fact that he's in the Kingsguard I guess, and her stubborn honour and stupid commitment to oaths and vows and lords that are already dead. And once you remove all of those factors, I don't really think you need to add jealousy as any sort of motivator to the mix, or former fiances, because it seems like it would belong in a different story. That is, once the blinders are lifted from Jaime's eyes with regard to Cersei, for example, I don't see what would be keeping Jaime from understanding his feelings for Brienne rather immediately (again, based on what the show has chosen to highlight). I don't think his character needs jealousy as a wake-up call.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the incident and the action from the book, I just think it would be pointless to cast someone formerly betrothed to Brienne for said action to mean something. And I mean, for the sake of argument, since the main thing keeping Jaime from Brienne right now seems to be Cersei, it would make the *most* sense if Cersei insulted Brienne to his face and he smacked her on the show. Not saying that's what they'll do, but really with their narratives being what they are, that would make the most sense in show-verse.

[Swamp Dweller]

I mean, I don't know, this is just a matter of my personal preference really, so keep that in mind. I just think the way they've framed it in the show, the thing that's standing between them is his relationship with Cersei most of all and the fact that he's in the Kingsguard I guess, and her stubborn honour and stupid commitment to oaths and vows and lords that are already dead. And once you remove all of those factors, I don't really think you need to add jealousy as any sort of motivator to the mix, or former fiances, because it seems like it would belong in a different story. That is, once the blinders are lifted from Jaime's eyes with regard to Cersei, for example, I don't see what would be keeping Jaime from understanding his feelings for Brienne rather immediately (again, based on what the show has chosen to highlight). I don't think his character needs jealousy as a wake-up call.

 
Good point, I really can't disagree :P They have been a little more blatant in the show than in the books so maybe once he and Cersei cut ties, things will naturally fall into place for him and Brienne.
 
 

 Don't get me wrong, I like the incident and the action from the book, I just think it would be pointless to cast someone formerly betrothed to Brienne for said action to mean something. And I mean, for the sake of argument, since the main thing keeping Jaime from Brienne right now seems to be Cersei, it would make the *most* sense if Cersei insulted Brienne to his face and he smacked her on the show. Not saying that's what they'll do, but really with their narratives being what they are, that would make the most sense in show-verse.

 
Not gonna lie, I have totally thought of this scenario, and as satisfying as it would be (though showCersei isn't near as vile as bookCersei), I don't know if the show would go there, especially since they already get lots of flak for violence against women, they may be reluctant to make a scene where Jaime smacks the crap out of his sister a cheer worthy moment. But you're right, it would make the most sense in terms of the show and working with existing characters. Plus would highlight where his new loyalties lie, since in the show there is no letter for him to burn and no inward dialogue of Cersei thinking Jaime would never choose 'such a creature' over her

[rocksniffer]

I mean, I don't know, this is just a matter of my personal preference really, so keep that in mind. I just think the way they've framed it in the show, the thing that's standing between them is his relationship with Cersei most of all and the fact that he's in the Kingsguard I guess, and her stubborn honour and stupid commitment to oaths and vows and lords that are already dead. And once you remove all of those factors, I don't really think you need to add jealousy as any sort of motivator to the mix, or former fiances, because it seems like it would belong in a different story. That is, once the blinders are lifted from Jaime's eyes with regard to Cersei, for example, I don't see what would be keeping Jaime from understanding his feelings for Brienne rather immediately (again, based on what the show has chosen to highlight). I don't think his character needs jealousy as a wake-up call.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the incident and the action from the book, I just think it would be pointless to cast someone formerly betrothed to Brienne for said action to mean something. And I mean, for the sake of argument, since the main thing keeping Jaime from Brienne right now seems to be Cersei, it would make the *most* sense if Cersei insulted Brienne to his face and he smacked her on the show. Not saying that's what they'll do, but really with their narratives being what they are, that would make the most sense in show-verse.

i think this would be exactly how the show could kill two birds with one stone. give us the golden slap down and make the break with cersei permanent...it would also probably get him kicked out of kingsguard (since cercei has set that precedent with selmy)..then he and bronn could fight their way out of city and launch them together on jamies quest to find his true love...since  ilyn payne isn't with him he needs a traveling buddy!  

 

:smoking:

[Swamp Dweller]

i think this would be exactly how the show could kill two birds with one stone. give us the golden slap down and make the break with cersei permanent...it would also probably get him kicked out of kingsguard (since cercei has set that precedent with selmy)..then he and bronn could fight their way out of city and launch them together on jamies quest to find his true love...since  ilyn payne isn't with him he needs a traveling buddy!  

 

:smoking:

 

Omg yes! Okay, I'm convinced, I'm willing to give up a Red Ronnet smackdown for a Cersei slap, I didn't even think about Cersei kicking him out of the Kingsguard angle.  Would really kill lots of birds with one stone, or one golden hand that is!  And yes, Jaime and Bronn adventures that don't involve Dorne would be nice! :)

 

You know what I just realized, that with all the people on this forum someone should be able to create a set of GoT-inspired emojis for the users to use in this forum!

[Le Cygne]

That would be horrible if he smacked Cersei. It's not the same thing at all. And it won't happen.

[kit_hepburn]

Obviously it's not the same thing, because the show isn't highlighting the same things as the books. And it's just pure speculation on my part so I wouldn't worry about it. Then again, I see no reason from a narrative perspective why it *couldn't* happen (it's not like it messes with the story in any significant way). If you don't like what it would do to Jaime's character, fine. But they could do it if they wanted to. Hell, I *love* Jaime and if I was a show-producer I'd be all over it. Or if you don't like him actually smacking her, they could play out the lines without the actual smack. Whatever. I'm just trying to say it's a good moment in the book, but one they would have to work at to adapt in the show.

[Meera of Tarth]

Oh, star-crossed lovers? Not at all. The direction of the show is different than the one of the books, but I think that, by the end of S5, it is becoming more like the books, it's just that they've made things happen more slowly. And yes, maybe there's more love than in the books. But there are substancial differences:

 

If they were star-crossed lovers, they would ALWAYS love each other, regardless of what the destiny is doing with them. Cersei clearly loves Jaime, but I don't see her love as completely pure and true; and Jaime, he is not so attached to Cersei as he was in the past. Moreover, he can't be his star-crossed partner if, at the same time, ihis heart is growing, fondly, for Brienne, which the show is clearly doing.

[Meera of Tarth]

Was listening to some commentary yesterday and GRRM and one of the writers of the Bear and Maiden Fair episode were talking about them trying to plant seeds for a potential romantic relationship between Jaime and Brienne and then with the whole scene at the wedding with Cersei calling out Brienne's feelings for Jaime, the show has not been very subtle about exploring something there. So that's another reason I think the split between J/C will happen fairly early on next season in a much more condensed and compressed way as Lady Vorkosigan said.

That's so interesting! Do you have the link?

[kit_hepburn]

Maybe this is it? (a clip from it anyway) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jxdRxzj_5w

 

There's also the Season 4 "Oathkeeper" commentary in which the director is pretty blatant about saying this is a romantic relationship (actually, I think she just comes out and says that they directed the scene as if it was two people who are in love who are saying goodbye forever - no ambiguity). But there wasn't really any ambiguity about the scene without the commentary, and lines like "you love him" aren't exactly subtle, so... it's not really rocket science as to what they're trying to do.

[Swamp Dweller]

Maybe this is it? (a clip from it anyway) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jxdRxzj_5w
 
There's also the Season 4 "Oathkeeper" commentary in which the director is pretty blatant about saying this is a romantic relationship (actually, I think she just comes out and says that they directed the scene as if it was two people who are in love who are saying goodbye forever - no ambiguity). But there wasn't really any ambiguity about the scene without the commentary, and lines like "you love him" aren't exactly ambiguous, so... it's not really rocket science as to what they're trying to do.

Yep that was the one I was talking about (the one you posted as a link), I didn't see the commentary for Oathkeeper but I'll have to try and find that one, is it on YouTube as well?