THE OTHERS AND BRAN

[Patchfaces O'Houlihan]

Is the others ability to control wights just a perversion of the warging ability?  In other words skin changing with the dead?  My

second thought is that we've seen Bran control other human beings such as Hodor so is it possible that other human beings have been being controlled in the same manner by other people who have the same or similar abilities as Bran?  An example I'd use is when Jaime had that crazy dream right after he left Harenhal and then he was suddenly struck with the notion to return and resuce Brienne from the bear pit? 

 

 

I apoligize in advance if this has previously been brought up. 

[SevasTra82]

Is the others ability to control wights just a perversion of the warging ability?  In other words skin changing with the dead?  My

second thought is that we've seen Bran control other human beings such as Hodor so is it possible that other human beings have been being controlled in the same manner by other people who have the same or similar abilities as Bran?  An example I'd use is when Jaime had that crazy dream right after he left Harenhal and then he was suddenly struck with the notion to return and resuce Brienne from the bear pit? 

 

 

I apoligize in advance if this has previously been brought up. 

 

I guess it's possible, but I don't see what the point would be.  Why would an Other want to warg into a dead, slow moving human body?  What would that benefit?  Unless you are speaking of 1 Other warging into hundreds at the same time...I guess that would be somewhat beneficial.

 

But overall, I don't see why the would want to do so. 

[Rickyhunt]

I always thought the others ability to control wights was like a form of necromancy.

[Richard Writhen]

Yeah, closely related to what Qyburn can do, but with a lot more power yet less effort :agree:

[Patchfaces O'Houlihan]

Warging into corspse would would be the ultimate killing machine.... imagine in an enviorment where there was no fire to destroy it say like...  UNDER THE SEA OH OH OH ... I know , I know... granted it would be slow but what makes undead so powerful is the relentless nature.  Just like The Terminator it can't be reasoned with... it never sleeps, gets tired, hungry or cold..... 

[redeagl]

I think that the only connection between Bran and the Others is that Bran will be in the Others is that in the end Bran will be in the Others side.

[Blazfemur]

if wights are a body being warged, theyre not by Others but the Heart of Winter itself.

[Dorian Martell]

Is the others ability to control wights just a perversion of the warging ability?  In other words skin changing with the dead?  My

second thought is that we've seen Bran control other human beings such as Hodor so is it possible that other human beings have been being controlled in the same manner by other people who have the same or similar abilities as Bran?  An example I'd use is when Jaime had that crazy dream right after he left Harenhal and then he was suddenly struck with the notion to return and resuce Brienne from the bear pit? 

 

 

I apoligize in advance if this has previously been brought up. 

Skinchanging requires that something to be alive and the shinchanger becomes part of it. Animating a corpse seems like necromancy, which the others are legendarily adept at 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Yes, thats exactly what they are doing.  They sacrifice babies to raise the dead, just like MMD did, then they warg the soulless bodies and when they are warged their eyes turn blue.  Thats why when the wights begin to burn their blue eyes go away before they actually die, the WW's sever the connection so they don't have to feel it like Varamyr felt the eagle.

 

BR somehow severed the connection to Cold Hands and has since been skinchanging him, or he somehow managed to skinchange himself.

[Blazfemur]

Yes, thats exactly what they are doing.  They sacrifice babies to raise the dead, just like MMD did, then they warg the soulless bodies and when they are warged their eyes turn blue.  Thats why when the wights begin to burn their blue eyes go away before they actually die, the WW's sever the connection so they don't have to feel it like Varamyr felt the eagle.

 

BR somehow severed the connection to Cold Hands and has since been skinchanging him, or he somehow managed to skinchange himself.

 

perhaps coldhands is the biproduct. a warg, that possessed something else, his original body dies, goes wight, then the original soul returned to the wighted body, dispelling the blue influence on it

 

*shrugs*

[Patchfaces O'Houlihan]

So Cold Hands is basically a "free" wight.  The tie was severed and he's able to act on his own free will?  Thats pretty cool.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I think that the only connection between Bran and the Others is that Bran will be in the Others is that in the end Bran will be in the Others side.

Or the Others will be in Bran's side.

[redeagl]

Or the Others will be in Bran's side.

 

 It's pretty much the same in the end.But it will not be the other way around.(Bran fighting the Others.)

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
 It's pretty much the same in the end.But it will not be the other way around.(Bran fighting the Others.)

It is not the same. Bran could use them for infinite possibilities.

[Crippledtank]

I dont think so, mainly because Jon seems to lose his connection to ghost when the wall is between them.... Yet the wights get up whilst on the hopefully "Other free side" unless the Others have a powerful greenseer who can only warg dead or empty bodies.

[Patchfaces O'Houlihan]

Is it possible to warg a DRAGON?

[Ragnorak]

There are similarities between warging/skinchanging and the wights to be sure, but the whole picture seems a bit more complicated.

 

Much of the magic in the world seems to have certain similarities. Seeing the past, present and future is something that both Greenseers and flame gazers are able to do. The maegi that gives Cersei her prophecy seems to be able to manifest a similar ability through blood magic of a sort by tasting a drop of Cersei's blood. The wights are essentially reanimated corpses. We see Beric and Lady Stoneheart brought back to life by R'hllor in what seems a very similar magical power. Both forms of undead seem to retain memories of their former lives, though the fire zombies appear to have a certain autonomy that the ice zombies do not. There is also unGregor who seems to be the product of necromancy (shadowbinding perhaps?) who seems to have become somewhat of a mindless zombie at least in terms of free will. If he retains any memory of his past life we have not seen anything to specifically show it one way or the other.

 

The Wall seems to block the passage of wights. Whether or not it blocks the passage of the Others themselves is unknown. The Wall also seems to block Jon's ability to feel Ghost when they are on opposite sides, but it does nothing to block Jon or Ghost's physical passage. The Wall does not appear to interfere with Bloodraven's ability to skinchange. The black tom in King's Landing and Mormont's raven are both likely hosts to Bloodraven and the Wall seems to be no barrier to him. He is also able to reach Bran in his dreams. Additionally, Bran first contacts Jon from the Winterfell crypts when they are on opposite sides of the Wall. Skinchangers and Greenseers seem to follow different rules when trying to magically pass through the Wall.

 

While the wights seem unable to voluntarily cross the Wall, they are capable of still be reanimated on the south side of the Wall as Jon discovers in GoT. If they are being "controlled" that would imply the Others have an ability more akin to Bloodraven or Bran's Greenseer ability than to a warg or skinchanger. It is also possible that their fundamental nature is changed upon reanimation and they are motivated by a slightly more complex set of desires than a typical zombie hungering for "Brains!"

 

We also see Mel at Storms End face a similar barrier in her desire to send in a murderous shadow baby. The shadow baby can't cross into Storms End, but she can physically bear the shadow baby through the walls and birth it on the other side. Given the dream Stannis has of killing Renly, we can assume he is having a similar dream here with Penrose which means the magical protection of the walls of Storms End does not block Stannis from controlling the shadow baby assassin from his dreams.

 

Mel herself seems to be in a state of pseudo-undeath though she does not seem to have died and been brought back but rather undergone some form of magical transformation. She is able to pass through the Wall and probably Storms End as well (with Davos rowing her being a possible method of her being "carried" through the walls.)

 

Coldhands might be a wight that has broken the Others magical hold on himself. He might be a wight that Bloodraven has wrenched from their control. It might be possible that the Nights Watch oath taken before a weirwood actually has some magical power and while the Others may reanimate such dead watchmen they may not control them. Whatever the case Coldhands seems bound by the same restrictions as other wights in that he seems unable to cross the Wall or pass the barriers protecting the CotF cave.

 

So while the ability likely has similarities to warging, it also has differences. Guessing as to the specifics of those differences is best explored through other examples of magically similar things from different "schools" of magic that we have more detail about. Fire and Ice zombies is a good examples. Arya's Faceless Men chapters offer some potential insights into the memories of the dead too. Dany's dragon birthing has MMD reminding us that there is a price both to gaining such knowledge and to paying for life. Somewhere in the other magical details is the closest answer you'll find even if it won't be an exacting one.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Is it possible to warg a DRAGON?

Per GRRM there is no history of it, and the dragonriding bond is not like the skinchanger bond.  He says it would be very very difficult.

 

Considering that, it would take a very powerful skinchanger, and probably one with lots of experience.  If anyone in this series is skinchanging a dragon, it will be Bloodraven.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Is the others ability to control wights just a perversion of the warging ability?  In other words skin changing with the dead?  My

second thought is that we've seen Bran control other human beings such as Hodor so is it possible that other human beings have been being controlled in the same manner by other people who have the same or similar abilities as Bran?  An example I'd use is when Jaime had that crazy dream right after he left Harenhal and then he was suddenly struck with the notion to return and resuce Brienne from the bear pit? 

 

 

I apoligize in advance if this has previously been brought up. 

Bran has trouble even with Hodor.  And Varamyr tried it with Thistle and that went really badly. 

 

No chance anyone human character in the series--other than the two mentioned above--has been skinchanged by anybody.

 

Glass candles and weirwoods do give the ability to talk to people in their sleep and send them dreams.  Jaime was sleeping on a weirwood stump when he had that dream.

 

As to the wights, I don't think it's skinchanging.  There are too many of them. I think the Others are using necromancy to create dispensable human infantry to counter the fact that the humans outnumber the Others.  There's really no other reason for the wighting on such a massive scale unless it's strictly a "let them kill their own dead rather than risk ourselves" thing.

 

I have a theory on wighting.  Let me know if you'd like to take a look at it.

[Patchfaces O'Houlihan]

Excellent insight   Ragnorak thanks for the input and new insight.  I wonder if there was a parallel event on the Ice side of magic similar to when Daenery's hatched the dragon eggs....enhancing the Fire magic, examples like Thoros's improved magical abilities as well as the candle's re lighting at the citidel that might have created some of the anomalies like Cold Hands or improved abilities to control wights?