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Jon Snow's Twin


Daemon Blackfyre IV

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Ok the Meera thing is bugging me i personally hate that some outsider grabs theory's from us dedicated people who have been around for years and gets all this publicity over it. I do believe there is a twin for the record and always have

 

Meera don't fit the eyes kills it for me sorry but the story really associates families with eye color's 

 

Margaery Tyrell is said to look like Lyanna by Renly and her age also fits but again the eye color does not

 

Daenerys Targaryen GRRM says they are 8-10 months apart or something, plus Ned would have had to get the baby to the Queen who would have been under siege by Stannis around that time most likely.

 

 

 

 

Wylla Manderly The age fits and i find it odd that she dyes her hair garish green yet she is Westerosi, could she be hiding her eye color ? Her eyebrows are blonde and so is her mother so i could be wrong about it but her Stark loyalty is insane especially for a girl so young.

 

Allyria Dayne She is probably the same age as Jon and even though we have no description of her i find it very unlikely that her parents would have a child roughly 15 years later

 

 

 

I first have to ask myself a few questions

 

1) Who would Ned trust with this child

 

- Wyman Manderly is rich and very loyal in fact when Ned first plans for war Wyman is one of the first people he sends word to

 

- House Dayne simply put this house knows the whole truth, gave Ned the household wet nurse and named the household Heir after the man. Arthur died to protect the child so i can't see why they wouldn't consider adopting the young girl for Ned as a thank you for returning Dawn.

 

 

2) Would this child look the opposite of Jon like Aegon and Rhaeny's ?

 

- I ask this because my 2 main candidates could have the Targaryen features and be trying to blend in.

 

- Wylla Manderly would dye her hair to throw off the purple eyes and maybe even flax hair

 

- Allyria Dayne could have purple eyes and no one would bat an eye at it because the Dayne's have the purple eyes 

 

 

3) What would the purpose of a twin be in the story be ?

 

- Wylla Manderly falls out as a candidate for me here, she's not a warrior that we know of and besides Wyman being very bad ass and her being fearless i just don't see it unless she is a last case scenario for a Stark to hold Winterfell i suppose Wyman would love to see her as Lady of the North but i don't buy it as much as i love her.

 

- Allyria Dayne well we don't know anything about her except that she has been betrothed to Beric Dondarrion a while and not yet married him yet which gives us an idea of her age. We can assume that she is at Starfall rait now. So what can Allyria have to do with the story ?

 

Well one thing that anoys the heck out of me is all the swords in this book and how they all come back to Jon, like i wanna see him with Ice some day and have him give Jorah or Lyanna Mormont longclaw but he has had it so long now that i can't see him ever discarding it. Some Targaryen fans unlike me being a Stark fan probably wanna see Jon end up with Blackfyre or another bastard sword in Darksister which is always fitting. 

 

We also have that theory where House Dayne are only protectors of the sowrd Dawn and protect it until the day the chosen one needs it. Personally i kind of buy into that theory and also think that the map of Westeros and it's ancient house words hint to a treasure map involving this sword but that is for another day.

 

Back to Allyria so my one thing i come up with on her is that she for some reason takes Dawn to her brother maybe knowing both family secrets and want's to help fulfill a prophesy. I know again another sword how many swords does Jon need. Well this sword gotta have some huge end game and this s one way i see it, Allyria is with the Sword she could be one of the only ones to get her hands on it no child who knows the truth about themselves can resist the temptation of meeting their biological family i could only imagine if they were on the brink of extinction.

 

Jon is about to fight in the War for the Dawn

maybe it really is war for Dawn that sword could have power to end things

 

Could Allyria travel all that way finally meet her brother only to become Nissa Nissa and have to die to give the sword it's power ? this is another option although a board game hints that GRRM may have got the idea of Nissa Nissa from a character who resembles the children of the forest but again that's another story.

 

 

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That was a lot.   I still don't see the support for Jon has a twin.   How would that serve Jon's story or the tale at large?   Sure Allyria could fit in the manner you described, but why would she have to?    I've read threads about Ashara Dayne being the mother of Meera and Jojen, or in this case, Jojen and fostering Meera, but why?   I get it where Dawn could be Lightbringer, but still don't understand why it has to be.    I guess it would all be much clearer if more information was avialable about both Jon's birth and the Daynes.   You put a lot into your post and I'm not naysaying you even a little bit.   I'm hoping the reason Jon needs a twin and Dawn is Lightbringer could be explained is all.   As for the swords, I like the idea of Jon being the Last Hero and all of his companions wielding each of the Valyrian Swords.  It seems to me that as the obvious hero you are absolutely right, all the swords seem to fit Jon.  I can't substantiate it, but I like it.

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I don't buy the Twin theory.

However, for the sake of argument, why does the twin need to be a girl? What about Aegon or Darkstar? They could pass as having a relation to Rhaegar.

If R+L= twins, then the only reason Ned would not have claimed both twins as his Bastard children would be because one of them looks too Targaryen. So I would say Aegon or a Dayne is most likely.

(If ASoIaF has a Star Wars trope in it then I would prefer it being Arthur Dayne watching over Jon. Would have been awesome!  :frown5:)

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<snip

 

Daenerys Targaryen GRRM says they are 8-10 months apart or something, plus Ned would have had to get the baby to the Queen who would have been under siege by Stannis around that time most likely.

 

 

Wylla Manderly The age fits and i find it odd that she dyes her hair garish green yet she is Westerosi, could she be hiding her eye color ? Her eyebrows are blonde and so is her mother so i could be wrong about it but her Stark loyalty is insane especially for a girl so young.

 

Allyria Dayne She is probably the same age as Jon and even though we have no description of her i find it very unlikely that her parents would have a child roughly 15 years later

 

<snip

 

1) Who would Ned trust with this child

 

<snip

 

 

2) Would this child look the opposite of Jon like Aegon and Rhaeny's ?

 

<snip

 

3) What would the purpose of a twin be in the story be ?

 

 

<snip

 

Context on Dany's birth that could, if you tilt your head enough and lean ever so slightly to the right, make her Jon's twin:  GRRM was asked if Jon is a year older than Dany.  He replied that no, Jon is not a year older, closer to 8-9 months older.  Technically (remember to tilt your head, and squint here) a couple of minutes older IS closer to 8-9 months older than it would be to a full year older.  How that works is that Ned takes both babies to Starfall, Ashara's death is faked and she takes a small, inconspicuous fishing boat to Dragonstone and gives Dany to the Queen.  Rhaella's own child is stillborn, and she lives long enough to make all of her people swear to say that Rhaegar's daughter is actually hers, and just large for her age.

 

Wylla--fair idea, but we have nothing to corroborate Ned visiting White Harbor or otherwise getting a baby to the Manderlys the way we have him visiting known Targ sympathizers in Dorne.  Wylla really works better as a marriage possibility for Jon and/or any bachelor left standing after the Others are defeated.  Also Wylla seems to have some fierce Manderly pride going on.

 

Allyria--decent chance, though it might be more likely that Allyria is Ashara's daughter with Brandon.  Since we don't know Allyria's age, it's hard to say.  As to what she'd have to do with the story...if Dany never manages to have a living child, she could name her niece Allyria as her heir.

 

1. Ned would trust the Daynes.  Don't know about the Manderlys for certain but if he had placed that level of trust in them before, it makes even more sense that Wyman is such a staunch Stark supporter--i.e. proving himself worthy of the charge.

 

2. Yes the twin would have to have the Valyrian features.  Otherwise Ned would have been raising "his" two bastards at Winterfell.  The only way he doesn't take both of his sister's children home with him is if he can't protect one because it looks like Rhae Rhae.

 

3. It could be that Jon's dead meat by the series' end, and an heir is still needed.  Or it could be entirely about Dany not being without any family and not being the last of the Targaryens.

 

 

By the way, you left out Aegon as Jon's potential twin.  The answers to the questions remain the same.  Ned would trust the Daynes, Aegon would have Valyrian features, and for the same reasons but also adding in the issue of not being the exact dragon people are being told he is.  That also adds a layer to Varys' speech to Kevan, in that Varys is once again telling the truth yet managing to leave his audience in the dark as to his actual meaning.  And Lyanna naming one of her son's for Rhaegar's murdered child would be a nice touch and show that Lyanna was not just some heartless little tramp who stole Elia's husband.

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I don't think Lyanna had twins, that would be a huge hack from GRRM, "hey guys remember that baby from the TOJ? Well now there are two" and this is how Jon will get Dawn... Dawn will be wielded by a Dayne.. It's an ancestral tradition

That would require GRRM to have previously acknowledged ANY baby at the TOJ, which he has not done.  If Lyanna had twins, it will be something that's been in the planning of the series from nearly the beginning, and certainly since the final draft of AGoT.  You not seeing it coming does not make it hack writing.

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If you mean about Meera, she has green eyes.  

 

I mean for any character. Lyanna's eye color isn't mentioned. There is no basis that Meera or Margaery or anybody else doesn't fit as a twin due to their eye color as that would require us to know the only possible eye colors that the twin could have. We don't know that.

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It is possible Lyanna had twins and women pregnant with twins have more complicated births and the only reason for Ned adopt only one child is because one of them have valyrian features, something that would be suspicious.

 

But we have no evidence that happened and the difference of age between siblings is not a good evidence for it. We saw some cases in the novels when person is much older than his siblings. Rhaegar was 18 years older than Viserys and 25-26 years older than Danny. In the house Waynwood Ser Wallace is some years younger than his nephew Rolland, indicating that his brother was older enough to be married when he was born.

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Yeah but Lyanna died that day and was only with Rhaegar for a short period of time, she can't have a second child that is younger or older than Jon.
So everybody who is not the exact same age as Jon is completely out of the question and for the rest we have no evidence or hints, jsut a pretty fanfiction-like theory.

If we go by :we don't have evidence that it wasn't so" we can also speculate that Lyanna gave birth to two more children and a baby elephant, because we don't have evidence against that either.

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I mean for any character. Lyanna's eye color isn't mentioned. There is no basis that Meera or Margaery or anybody else doesn't fit as a twin due to their eye color as that would require us to know the only possible eye colors that the twin could have. We don't know that.

Lyanna is a Stark, born of two Starks.  Her eyes will have been grey.

 

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the only possible eye colors are grey (Stark) or some shade of purple (Targaryen).  A case could be made for blue, as Queen Alysanne had blue eyes.  But green eyes are not anywhere in the Targ or Stark backgrounds.

 

If Jon is the son of a Stark and Ashara Dayne, we have the same eye colors for that combination as we do for the Stark/Targ combo.

 

If Jon is the son of Ned and some fisherman's daughter, then a whole series full of clues were a waste of time and energy for the author and for the readers as well.  But I do admit that in that case we have no clue what the fisherman's daughter would have for genes.

 

Margaery doesn't fit because she's two years older than Jon, and because she has the typical Tyrell looks.  There is no way Jon is half Tyrell.

 

Meera doesn't fit because she has the typical crannogs look.  There is no way Jon is half Reed.  She's also way too short to be a Stark/Targ or Stark/Dayne.  Jojen is barely taller than Bran who is seven/eight years old at the time, and Meera is sixteen but no taller than Jojen.  Whatever else is known of the Starks, Targs, and Daynes, majorly short has never been used to describe them.

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Yeah but Lyanna died that day and was only with Rhaegar for a short period of time, she can't have a second child that is younger or older than Jon.
So everybody who is not the exact same age as Jon is completely out of the question and for the rest we have no evidence or hints, jsut a pretty fanfiction-like theory.

If we go by :we don't have evidence that it wasn't so" we can also speculate that Lyanna gave birth to two more children and a baby elephant, because we don't have evidence against that either.

Yes she can.  Twins are not born at the exact same moment.  What Lyanna can't have had is two separate pregnancies.  If Jon has a full sibling, then he has a twin.

 

That would definitely explain the complications that led to her death.

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Yes she can.  Twins are not born at the exact same moment.  What Lyanna can't have had is two separate pregnancies.  If Jon has a full sibling, then he has a twin.

 

That would definitely explain the complications that led to her death.

 

Do I really have to explain that I meant several months to several years older or younger? Two seperate pregnancies? In answer to someone saying how many people in ASoIaF have siblings that are many years older or younger than them?

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Lyanna is a Stark, born of two Starks.  Her eyes will have been grey.

 

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the only possible eye colors are grey (Stark) or some shade of purple (Targaryen).  A case could be made for blue, as Queen Alysanne had blue eyes.  But green eyes are not anywhere in the Targ or Stark backgrounds.

 

If Jon is the son of a Stark and Ashara Dayne, we have the same eye colors for that combination as we do for the Stark/Targ combo.

 

If Jon is the son of Ned and some fisherman's daughter, then a whole series full of clues were a waste of time and energy for the author and for the readers as well.  But I do admit that in that case we have no clue what the fisherman's daughter would have for genes.

 

Margaery doesn't fit because she's two years older than Jon, and because she has the typical Tyrell looks.  There is no way Jon is half Tyrell.

 

Meera doesn't fit because she has the typical crannogs look.  There is no way Jon is half Reed.  She's also way too short to be a Stark/Targ or Stark/Dayne.  Jojen is barely taller than Bran who is seven/eight years old at the time, and Meera is sixteen but no taller than Jojen.  Whatever else is known of the Starks, Targs, and Daynes, majorly short has never been used to describe them.

 

Benjen will be shocked to learn that he is not related to Rickard, Lyarra, Brandon, Ned, or Lyanna then given that he has blue eyes

 

 

His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes.

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