Understanding Tywin Lannister

[drhenry]

So I was one of those people who thought Tywin Lannister was evil and one of the worst people throughout the entire ASOIAF series and the rape of Tysha still makes him a horrible human being but after reading the section on the Westerlands concerning his father and then the extended version that goes into even greater detail I understand why his is the person that he is and now that I'm rereading ASoS I see him in a completely different light. I would love to know how other people felt as well.

 

Link to extended version:   http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

 

[Lord Varys]

I guess it goes with him like Genna already said. You don't like the man he eventually became, but the young man must have been a pretty decent guy. I think one of the real eye-openers is the throwaway line that he actually paid the Crown's debts with Lannister gold (Jaehaerys' debts Aerys refused to pay back to the Iron Bank) when we learn later in ASoS that he would never do that for Joffrey/Tommen.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, I haven't read the link, but in my view his later attitudes were shaped in a major way by Aerys Targaryen's affairs with Joanna Lannister.

 

For a man like Tywin the humiliations visited upon him - by the one man in Westeros against whom he had no way of striking back - must have been terrible to endure for all those decades.

 

This shaped not only his treatment of enemies, but also his treatment of Tyrion, whom he always suspected but could never prove, was Aerys's child.

[drhenry]

I don't want to get into a discussion about whether or not A+J=T is true or not but I think it is more to do with his father being such a humiliation and now having a son that is a constant humiliation upon his house and losing the love of his life which explains why he became the person that he is. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I guess it goes with him like Genna already said. You don't like the man he eventually became, but the young man must have been a pretty decent guy. I think one of the real eye-openers is the throwaway line that he actually paid the Crown's debts with Lannister gold (Jaehaerys' debts Aerys refused to pay back to the Iron Bank) when we learn later in ASoS that he would never do that for Joffrey/Tommen.

 

Well we don't know if it was a payment or a loan. As Hand he would have probably been able to get it back, plus he would have seen how expensive a war would have been both for Westeros and his own House. Paying out of his own pocket may have been cheaper for his House than a war with Braavos.

 

And it's not that he refused to pay for Crowns debts (Joffrey and Tommen) but that he thought the Crown was more than able to pay back its own expenses. The money was there to make the repayments to both the Faith and the Iron Bank but Cersei decided to blow it on a  new royal navy after Tywin had died.

[Lion of the West]

I agree with the OP that the info we have been given in regards to Tywin's backstory makes for a fascinating read and an example of GRRM's characterizaton that many other authors can only dream about. A really fascinating character in pretty much every aspect.

 

I will also say that given everything that Tywin went through, with it pretty much being him and his House against the world, I perfectly understand why he hardened to the degree that he did.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Look, I haven't read the link, but in my view his later attitudes were shaped in a major way by Aerys Targaryen's affairs with Joanna Lannister.

 

For a man like Tywin the humiliations visited upon him - by the one man in Westeros against whom he had no way of striking back - must have been terrible to endure for all those decades.

 

This shaped not only his treatment of enemies, but also his treatment of Tyrion, whom he always suspected but could never prove, was Aerys's child.

 

I think after Tywin and Joanna were married that Aerys more likely raped her than had a consensual affair, but otherwise I agree. 

[Doorlocks]

Look, I haven't read the link, but in my view his later attitudes were shaped in a major way by Aerys Targaryen's affairs with Joanna Lannister.

 

For a man like Tywin the humiliations visited upon him - by the one man in Westeros against whom he had no way of striking back - must have been terrible to endure for all those decades.

 

This shaped not only his treatment of enemies, but also his treatment of Tyrion, whom he always suspected but could never prove, was Aerys's child.

 

I agree.  Even if they weren't true, for rumors to follow those two around for so many years would drive Tywin crazy.  Joanna losing her virginity to Aerys, Joanna being Aerys' paramour, and finally, after marrying Tywin, Joanna being dismissed from Court  by Rhaella for being a whore.  Then you've got Aerys moving in with Tywin and Joanna for over a year.  And all through that (and then for more than a decade after) Tywin stays in Aerys' service.  The Tywin we knew in the present narrative and he Tywin of that era seem like two different people sometimes.

[Lion of the West]

Look, I haven't read the link, but in my view his later attitudes were shaped in a major way by Aerys Targaryen's affairs with Joanna Lannister.

 

For a man like Tywin the humiliations visited upon him - by the one man in Westeros against whom he had no way of striking back - must have been terrible to endure for all those decades.

 

This shaped not only his treatment of enemies, but also his treatment of Tyrion, whom he always suspected but could never prove, was Aerys's child.

 

If you don't want to have an informed opinion about Tywin there's little that I can do, but I can say that you are wrong. Its rather clear that his attitudes were formed by first the disregard by the Reynes and Tarbecks and finally that his best friend Aerys turned on him for petty reasons. Those experiences are not what makes you build a trust in your fellow human beings as he found enemies everywhere outside his House where he should have found friends.

 

 

I agree.  Even if they weren't true, for rumors to follow those two around for so many years would drive Tywin crazy.  Joanna losing her virginity to Aerys, Joanna being Aerys' paramour, and finally, after marrying Tywin, Joanna being dismissed from Court  by Rhaella for being a whore.  Then you've got Aerys moving in with Tywin and Joanna for over a year.  And all through that (and then for more than a decade after) Tywin stays in Aerys' service.  The Tywin we knew in the present narrative and he Tywin of that era seem like two different people sometimes.

 

And I disagree. I can understand that Joanna being called a whore was a grave thing for Tywin, seeing loved ones be treated like shit, is that for many people but the rest of it don't seem to have bothered Tywin were much and he and Aerys remained friends also after Joanna's suppsed tryst with Aerys. But I agree that Tywin underwent a considerbal change due to various experiences.

[First of the First Men]

It makes his actions more understandable, but it still does not justify them, particularly with regard to Tyrion.

 

"You killed your mother", my ass.

 

That being said, some of his criticism of Tyrion is valid, even without TWOIAF background. You could call it Tyrion's "demanding to be loved" thing.

[Jedi Renee]

[font='times new roman']So I was one of those people who thought Tywin Lannister was evil and one of the worst people throughout the entire ASOIAF series and the rape of Tysha still makes him a horrible human being but after reading the section on the Westerlands concerning his father and then the extended version that goes into even greater detail I understand why his is the person that he is and now that I'm rereading ASoS I see him in a completely different light. I would love to know how other people felt as well. [/font]
 
[font='times new roman']Link to extended version:   [/font]http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/
 

[Jedi Renee]

Thanks for the link it was very interesting indeed to read Tywins history, in particular how dealt with the tarbeks and reynes. A impressive man.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Tywin is such a fascinating figure. I hate when people write him off because of his villainy. There's no bones about it, Tywin is a bad guy during his time in ASOIAF. That doesn't mean he isn't interesting, or that his motives aren't worth delving into.

 

TWOIAF was great for opening up Tywin's history and giving us a greater understanding of the man. I would kill for a POV chapter from Tywin's perspective, just for the chance to get inside his head. I understand it wouldn't have worked within the novels themselves, but just a quick one-off chapter from Martin that works sorta like a short story.

 

I felt bad for Tywin, reading his history. Especially because of how much work he did for the realm when it came to maintaining stability and prosperity. Then to have Aerys just throw it in his face again and again is pretty crappy. The constant insults, the fact that Tywin tried to resign after Aerys' disparaging comments about his wife, etc. I think all of this plays into a pretty complex psychology. 

 

Tywin isn't just a simple villain, he has dimensions. He's one of my favorite elements in this series.

[The Wolves]

I will also say that given everything that Tywin went through, with it pretty much being him and his House against the world, I perfectly understand why he hardened to the degree that he did.

I will try not to be biased because I hate Tywin so very very very very much, so be patient with me please.

But to the bolded when was it ever House Lannister against the world? Yes the Reynes and Tarbecks threatened the Lannister rule and Tytos did nothing and Tywin stepped in and set the West in order but who else threatened the Lannister rule before the events in ASOIAF?

I can totally understand why Tywin did what he did to the Reynes and Tarbecks though I don't think any child should have died.

People say that the info in the world book helps to understand Tywin better but I don't see it. First off the whole book is a ass licking dedicated to Tywin and House Lannister so I question most things in that book detailing Tywin as a victim of Aerys, the court and others.

Yes Aerys was a crazy pyromaniac who was horrible to many people even Tywin I don't doubt that but the book paints Tywin in such a positive light that it's ridiculous. Tywin was a man obsessed with power and image not some innocent poor put upon soul who was wronged by everyone in life.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

People say that the info in the world book helps to understand Tywin better but I don't see it. First off the whole book is a ass licking dedicated to Tywin and House Lannister so I question most things in that book detailing Tywin as a victim of Aerys, the court and others.

 

 

How do you figure that?

 

Before that book was even published we are told how successful his period as Hand was, that is not something a Maester had just made up.

[Dofs]

I've never considered Tywin to be evil just because he was evil, like Cersei, Roose or Ramsay. It was already hinted in the main novels with the little snippets of his backstory and with statements like how the best part of Tywin died with his wife and how only a shell remained that there was a reason of why Tywin was who he was and the WOIAF greatly expands on all that. Tywin was clearly a man shaped by his childhood and his past experiences and it's interesting how you can basically see now in the WOIAF why Tywin became what we saw in the main novels.

[The Wolves]

 
How do you figure that?
 
Before that book was even published we are told how successful his period as Hand was, that is not something a Maester had just made up.

The over the top praise and victimization of Tywin, the lack of mention on the sack of KL(I think it was mentioned)and the thousands that died that day or how the blame of Elia and babies deaths were laid at the feet of Aerys and Elia when everybody even the Maester knows that Tywin ordered their deaths?

How about the whole Westerlands section being so Tywin/Lannister focused. Tywin is painted in a good light in the book when he is anything but.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The over the top praise and victimization of Tywin, the lack of mention on the sack of KL(I think it was mentioned)and the thousands that died that day or how the blame of Elia and babies deaths were laid at the feet of Aerys and Elia when everybody even the Maester knows that Tywin ordered their deaths?

 

 

Thousands didn't die that day? Hundreds did.

[Abdallah]

Tywin is very complex

 

The thing with Tysha was because he viewed her as another Tytos Mistress. Tywin's father had a mistress who used to wear his dead mothers jewels, order knights around, expel servants etc. So he figured he'd get rid of her, and find Tyrion a highborn wife. 

 

He dislikes Tyrion's jokes, and whoring because thats what his father did. His father nearly bankrupted them, allowed houses Reynes and Tarbeck to gain more power etc.

 

When it came to war, say Robb won and the Iron born had joined him. He was going to give them casterly rock. in this world its either you or your enemy, you should pick you.

[The Wolves]

 
Thousands didn't die that day? Hundreds did.

Okay why didn't the Maester give Tywin his due about KL or Elia and her babies while giving Tywin all the credit of Aerys reign while Hand or putting the Westerlands right?

It was a ass licking dedication to Tywin and the Lannister again making Tywin out to be a victim of Aerys and the court while praising him and not mentioning Tywin doing some of the most heinous deeds Westeros have experienced in years.