How can Jaime justify his kingslaying?

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I don't understand why Robert didn't just "relieve" him of his vows. He "punishes" Jaime simbollically by kicking him out of the Kingsguard, and at the same time he gives Tywin back his heir. That would have been as big a reward to the Lannisters as Robert's marriage to Cersei.

 

I don't think Jaime wanted out of the Kings Guard.  Did he?  I don't remember this.  Anyone?

[Lady Sharya]

I think its totally ok to be prejudiced as long as we recognize these prejudices and still make correct judgements based on evidence. So I don't hold it against ned at all.

I just went through several agonizing posts with another poster to show that Ned wasn't prejudiced against Jaime. Ned was wasn't prejudiced against Jaime.;)

Edit: To give an example of why it seems to me Ned made such an issue of Jaime sitting on the thone (besides the bloody sword and dead Aerys):
On a 4th of July there were Small US flags in my lawn lining the curb. A man walking along allowed his large male dog to pee on one of them. It annoyed me so I let my presence be known so he would stop the dog. He didn't. That annoyed me more, so I asked him to please stop his dog. He shrugged & thought it was not big deal. I was then insulted at his lack of respect for the US flag.
No one sits on the throne except the King and the Hand when performing king duties. Jaime's attitude when Ned rode in was much like the man who let his dog piss on my flag without regard to the symbolism he was defacing or the disrespect he was displaying in public.

[Lady Sharya]

I don't think Jaime wanted out of the Kings Guard.  Did he?  I don't remember this.  Anyone?

No he didn't. Both Cersei and Tywin talk about him leaving the KG. First Cersei wants him to be Hand to replace Jon Arryn, and then Tywin wants him to be heir to Casterly Rock. He says no to both.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I tend to be of the "Jaime has so much more to do" camp in terms of Jaime's redemption.  

 

To me the bulk of his awakening, self reflection, epiphany, whatever name you want to give his redemptive arc is wrapped up in his self pity and his identity crisis over the loss of his defining quality.  His amazing sword hand.  

 

I starting out hating Jaime thoroughly, but now I think he has the chance to make some kind of amends.  And surprisingly enough I actually hope that he does.  But he is not even close to "there yet."  IMO.  

 

For one thing he has never faced anything like justice for Bran.  Whether that ultimately means, throwing himself on the mercy of the Starks, going before the faith, confessing to whomever ultimately sits the Iron Throne, whatever.  I won't feel Jaime has paid his debt until he at least attempts to own that foul deed.  

 

All that said, the one thing that I absolutely accept is that Jaime means it, and believes it, when he says (paraphrasing) that killing the Mad King was the one noble thing he has ever done.  It is his badge of shame but he feels it was the one time he did right thing to do.  His chivalrous moment.  In this one thing I believe him.   

Jaime has paid.  I mean, Bran lost the use of his legs which to him deprived him of climbing, which he loved, but also of his future.  Bran wanted to be a knight.  He wanted to be what Jaime already was and Jaime deprived him of it.

 

Jaime loses his sword hand.  They both are paralyzed in a way and have to find alternative meaning in their lives.  Its almost as though they both have to lose a huge part of what they thought they were to become who they are meant to be.  Neither of them are actually there yet, but the journey is amazing to read through.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

No he didn't. Both Cersei and Tywin talk about him leaving the KG. First Cersei wants him to be Hand to replace Jon Arryn, and then Tywin wants him to be heir to Casterly Rock. He says no to both.

Exactly!  I thought at first it was Cersei who manipulated Jaime into becoming a King's Guard so they could be close to each other.  Then Tywin sends Cersei back to Casterly Rock.  So, yes, that is how I remember this.  I have to check though because I seem to remember wrong so much of the time!  

 

Jaime is coming full circle.  He wanted to be like Arthur Dayne, strangely enough, the same as Bran did, and I think he is going to get his wish.  :)

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Yes, apparently Ned was supposed to be god-like in his abilities and behaviors. Anything less should be viewed with scorn & distain, while other characters should be understood with compassion for their flaws, misguided perceptions, and bad deeds. ;)

I'm going to go with A spoon of knife and fork@ idea that Jaime's story was changed mid-stream & there is a hole in his motive for withholding the wildfire plot from everyone.

Its not just that he didn't tell Ned why he killed the king or Rossart.  Remember this:  Ned rode into the throne room and found Jaime on the throne with his sword across his knees.  We have all been told that this particular stance is one of aggression.  Aerys lay dead.  Lannister men were all around and oh yes, it was NOT the Baratheon Stag flying over the Red Keep, it was the Lannister Lion.

 

You can't blame Ned for drawing the conclusion that the Lannisters were of a mind to take the throne for themselves.  It is practically the only thing that Ned could think.  He was there to win the throne for Robert and it looked that instead of taking it from Aerys that he would have to take it from the Lannisters.  That perception was spot on from where Ned was sitting.

[Lady Sharya]

Exactly!  I thought at first it was Cersei who manipulated Jaime into becoming a King's Guard so they could be close to each other.  Then Tywin sends Cersei back to Casterly Rock.  So, yes, that is how I remember this.  I have to check though because I seem to remember wrong so much of the time!  
 
Jaime is coming full circle.  He wanted to be like Arthur Dayne, strangely enough, the same as Bran did, and I think he is going to get his wish.  :)

I'm not sure where in the books it is stated that Cersei got Jaime to join. A KG mysteriously died in his sleep though while Cersei was stayin the Red Keep, opening up the position.;) the conversation about Jaime becoming Hand takes place in Bran's chapter just before he gets pushed out of the tower. This is what he overhears them talking about. Idk where Tywins conversation is. Maybee when Jaime arrives back in KL after the Riverland ordeal.

[Yucef Menaerys]

First off I think Jaime should not have killed Aerys,there was just no need to kill him,he could've just arrested him and later imprison him instead of killing him and making a bad name for himself...and hey! He earned that name KINGSLAYER

[Lady Sharya]

Its not just that he didn't tell Ned why he killed the king or Rossart.  Remember this:  Ned rode into the throne room and found Jaime on the throne with his sword across his knees.  We have all been told that this particular stance is one of aggression.  Aerys lay dead.  Lannister men were all around and oh yes, it was NOT the Baratheon Stag flying over the Red Keep, it was the Lannister Lion.
 
You can't blame Ned for drawing the conclusion that the Lannisters were of a mind to take the throne for themselves.  It is practically the only thing that Ned could think.  He was there to win the throne for Robert and it looked that instead of taking it from Aerys that he would have to take it from the Lannisters.  That perception was spot on from where Ned was sitting.

:o
I completely missed that the sword was layed across his lap!! That means "No guest rights are given here and you are not a welcomed guest." That makes even more sense than Jaime having disrespect by sitting on the Throne! The evidence just keeps mounting for the justification of Ned's "stern stare" that some want to crucify him for.;)

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I'm not sure where in the books it is stated that Cersei got Jaime to join. A KG mysteriously died in his sleep though while Cersei was stayin the Red Keep, opening up the position. ;) the conversation about Jaime becoming Hand takes place in Bran's chapter just before he gets pushed out of the tower. This is what he overhears them talking about. Idk where Tywins conversation is. Maybee when Jaime arrives back in KL after the Riverland ordeal.

Here you go:

 

 

You would not like the truth. He had joined the Kingsguard for love, of course.

Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar's wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crake-hall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?

[Lady Sharya]

First off I think Jaime should not have killed Aerys,there was just no need to kill him,he could've just arrested him and later imprison him instead of killing him and making a bad name for himself...and hey! He earned that name KINGSLAYER

I argued this also back in the beginning of the thread. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he could have held him in a chamber until the rebels arrived...since it was minutes. Other posters say he had no way knowing the rebels were so close to breaking the door down. I think this was the better move, and he wouldn't have spent the last 15 years bitter at his devalued honor.;), not to mention he should have told someone about the wildfire plot!!

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

First off I think Jaime should not have killed Aerys,there was just no need to kill him,he could've just arrested him and later imprison him instead of killing him and making a bad name for himself...and hey! He earned that name KINGSLAYER

If it wasn't Jaime it would have been Robert or Ned.  Actually, it might even have been Gregor Clegane on Tywin's order.  Aerys was not ever going to survive the sack of King's Landing.  

[sweetsunray]

Its not just that he didn't tell Ned why he killed the king or Rossart.  Remember this:  Ned rode into the throne room and found Jaime on the throne with his sword across his knees.  We have all been told that this particular stance is one of aggression.  Aerys lay dead.  Lannister men were all around and oh yes, it was NOT the Baratheon Stag flying over the Red Keep, it was the Lannister Lion.

 

You can't blame Ned for drawing the conclusion that the Lannisters were of a mind to take the throne for themselves.  It is practically the only thing that Ned could think.  He was there to win the throne for Robert and it looked that instead of taking it from Aerys that he would have to take it from the Lannisters.  That perception was spot on from where Ned was sitting.

 

Yup, very good point about the sword drawn in the lap while on the throne. It is a hostile position from the start. Bran and Tyrion understand Robb's sword in his lap when Tyrion returns from the Wall as hostile. An 8 year old knows it. Surely an 18 year old, who was expected to be the CR heir, does too. The WF crypts with the dead and their drawn swords in the lap mean the same thing - if you're no Stark, you're not welcome here.

 

So,

• Aerys' dead body at the base of the stairs
• Lannister flags on the keep
• Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon brutally murdered
• Jaime on the throne
• Jaime's blood dripping sword
• Jaime wearing Lannister armor
• Jaime's sword in his lap, drawn denying guest right or even welcome
• None of the Lannisters chose any side, until after Rhaegar died at the Trident, and then move swiftly, still without declaring any side

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I just went through several agonizing posts with another poster to show that Ned wasn't prejudiced against Jaime. Ned was wasn't prejudiced against Jaime.;)

Edit: To give an example of why it seems to me Ned made such an issue of Jaime sitting on the thone (besides the bloody sword and dead Aerys):
On a 4th of July there were Small US flags in my lawn lining the curb. A man walking along allowed his large male dog to pee on one of them. It annoyed me so I let my presence be known so he would stop the dog. He didn't. That annoyed me more, so I asked him to please stop his dog. He shrugged & thought it was not big deal. I was then insulted at his lack of respect for the US flag.
No one sits on the throne except the King and the Hand when performing king duties. Jaime's attitude when Ned rode in was much like the man who let his dog piss on my flag without regard to the symbolism he was defacing or the disrespect he was displaying in public.

Seems like we are taking past each other. I agree that Neds judgements of jaime were totally fair and not prejudiced.

Doesn't mean he wasn't generally prejudiced against lannisters because of what he just saw Tywin do. That prejudice continues to the present day and was added to by what he believes jaime did and why (which I'll reapeat I agree he had every reason to think).

[Lady Sharya]

Seems like we are taking past each other. I agree that Neds judgements of jaime were totally fair and not prejudiced.
Doesn't mean he wasn't generally prejudiced against lannisters because of what he just saw Tywin do. That prejudice continues to the present day and was added to by what he believes jaime did and why (which I'll reapeat I agree he had every reason to think).

I don't think Ned was prejudiced against the Lannisters. I think he had animosity toward them for what they had done after RR....rightly so, as you say.;)

That animosity was used quite effectively by LF. Tyrion landed in a bad place with the Starks because of that letter from Lysa and LF pinning the dagger on him. It would definitely have been prejudicial of them to believe the info if it haden't come from Cat's own sister and a childhood friend.

[Lady Sharya]

Yup, very good point about the sword drawn in the lap while on the throne. It is a hostile position from the start. Bran and Tyrion understand Robb's sword in his lap when Tyrion returns from the Wall as hostile. An 8 year old knows it. Surely an 18 year old, who was expected to be the CR heir, does too. The WF crypts with the dead and their drawn swords in the lap mean the same thing - if you're no Stark, you're not welcome here.
 
So,

• Aerys' dead body at the base of the stairs
• Lannister flags on the keep
• Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon brutally murdered
• Jaime on the throne
• Jaime's blood dripping sword
• Jaime wearing Lannister armor
• Jaime's sword in his lap, drawn denying guest right or even welcome
• None of the Lannisters chose any side, until after Rhaegar died at the Trident, and then move swiftly, still without declaring any side

Yaeh, the evidence just keeps mounting.;) You are the keeper of the list.:commie:
I wonder if Jaime thought about what he was doing when he laid his sword across his lap thou. As you point out, he must have know about the gesture since Tyrion did and Tyrion wasn't trained to be lord of CR.

[Dofs]

 

I had forgotten in which conversation the quote fitted (no chapter etc). If you ignore the memories, and only rely on that quote without the context of what he says earlier, it can be seen as implying to impulsiveness and emotionality. But it comes after the memory.

There was nothing in his speech to Brienne that made it look like he acted on impulse. Or, at least, not more then what his memories showed us.

 

 

The memory shows us that it was not done as an emotional outburst. He already intends to kill Aerys. He slips in. He then lets Aerys rant and rant, and his answer "Rossart" is one worded. Aerys' immediate response to that is outright fear. And that wouldn't have just been for the content of what he said, but most likely he said it rather determent and darkly. 

He said he was guarding the castle, then a messenger came to him and told him about Rossart and the order to kill Tywin. Then he said that he went to the Throne Room to kill Aerys. Jaime didn't go into details that he remembered earlier but there is no emotional contradiction between his story to Brienne and his memories. 

 

Jaime's basically standing there waiting for the moment that Aerys realizes what he's up to, for Aerys to realize - your angel of death is here. It is most of all determent, rather than emotional. It doesn't mean that Jaime is devoid of emotions; simply that they are not relevant for his choice of actions. His choice is made intellectually and on the belief that this is what he must do.

It was not emotional outburst, surely, as the time between Jaime's decision to kill Aerys and the actual act was rather long. But that doesn't in any way mean that the act itself wasn't emotional or that the decision that Jaime made wasn't emotional. You are also over-dramatizing the scene. Jaime wasn't standing there waiting for the moment that Aerys realizes that Jaime had come to kill him. He just came to kill him. Aerys just happened to ask a question and Jaime just answered to him. And even if he was waiting for that, which I disagree with, that in no way would mean that the act was not emotional. It actually would mean that the act was very emotional, as Jaime didn't simply come and kill him but made sure that Aerys was also scared of him which would imply that it was personal for Jaime, or he wouldn't have cared that Aerys was afraid of him.

[sweetsunray]

There was nothing in his speech to Brienne that made it look like he acted on impulse. Or, at least, not more then what his memories showed us.

 

As I said, I misremembered the place of the quote, and thereby made a wrong initial suggestion in this thread. Mistakes can happen. I don't mind being pointed out that I misremembered, misinterpreted something. And I completely agree that the quote does not contradict the memory, and neither suggest he acted on impulse (which was my point to begin with anyway). Do you want me to hear say 3 x sorry or something because I made a mistake?  Fine: I'm sorry that I made a mistake. I'm sorry I made a mistake. I'm sorry I made a mistake.

 

The sole and only reason I refrained from answering the other poster was because of completely unrelated personal gauding regarding Pulp Fiction and what I regard as trolling. If I'm ignoring someone, I ignore the complete post.

 

He said he was guarding the castle, then a messenger came to him and told him about Rossart and the order to kill Tywin. Then he said that he went to the Throne Room to kill Aerys. Jaime didn't go into details that he remembered earlier but there is no emotional contradiction between his story to Brienne and his memories. 

 

See above. But I'd like to add that his line that he knew what that meant, implies he didn't kill Rossart or Aerys for the order to kill his father, but that it had everything to do with the wildfire plan. And it was suggested originally that Jaime killed Aerys and Rossart because they ordered him to kill his father.

 

It was not emotional outburst, surely, as the time between Jaime's decision to kill Aerys and the actual act was rather long. But that doesn't in any way mean that the act itself wasn't emotional or that the decision that Jaime made wasn't emotional. You are also over-dramatizing the scene. Jaime wasn't standing there waiting for the moment that Aerys realizes that Jaime had come to kill him. He just came to kill him. Aerys just happened to ask a question and Jaime just answered to him. And even if he was waiting for that, which I disagree with, that in no way would mean that the act was not emotional. It actually would mean that the act was very emotional, as Jaime didn't simply come and kill him but made sure that Aerys was also scared of him which would imply that it was personal for Jaime, or he wouldn't have cared that Aerys was afraid of him.

 

His decision is entirely rational - "I knew what that meant" -> "wildfire plot".

 

And no, I don't think waiting for the victim to realize he's going to be killed implies emotions at all. It can be, but not necessarily. It emphasises calmth and determination and is the opposite of impulsive. It reveals schadenfreude, which is not necessarily emotional motivation, but enjoying the moment, and getting the most out of it power-feeling like. The line about "I knew what that meant" already establishes rational decision over emotional.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I don't think Ned was prejudiced against the Lannisters. I think he had animosity toward them for what they had done after RR....rightly so, as you say.;)

That animosity was used quite effectively by LF. Tyrion landed in a bad place with the Starks because of that letter from Lysa and LF pinning the dagger on him. It would definitely have been prejudicial of them to believe the info if it haden't come from Cat's own sister and a childhood friend.

I think this is a distinction without a difference. "Animosity towards" lannisters such that he was predisposed negatively towards them is basically the definition of prejudice.

And again this does not have to mean he treated anyone unfairly. Ned was a better man than to let his prejudices alter his actions much.

[Dofs]

In that statement, I meant that at the time Ned rode into the throne room and gave Jamie a stern look (from Jaime's POV) he would have had a lot on his mind. Naturally, 15years later his memory would focus on what was most relevant. That doesn't necessarily mean that the stern look Jaime saw was solely due to Jaime. Fatigue, injury, concerns in the midst of chaos could all contribute to a stern look. Ned isn't going to necessarily recall those factors in his mood after 15 years. It's a trivial point and I don't recall why I mentioned it.

I was speaking more in the context of the current discussion about whether Ned was hypocritical or not. The fact that it looked like Jaime abandoned the king and joined his father's forces instead of being true to his vows is true but this fact was never mention or even hinted in Ned's POV chapters. When Ned actually discussed Jaime with Robert, the only issue he mentioned was that Jaime was a bastard because he killed Aerys while being his kingsguard and that he sat on his throne later and laughed. Ned even himself acknowledged that he would have killed Aerys himself and it would be acceptable, but Jaime doing that was unacceptable. If Jaime joining his father was why Ned despised him, he would have surely mentioned that to Robert when he was trying to prove him that Jaime couldn't be trusted. But no, he was only telling "omg, kingslayer"!