Is Tyrion the valonqar or Jaime

[Yucef Menaerys]

Maggy the frog's prophecy states that the valonqar will choke the life out of cersei,but who is the valonqar? We know that valonqar is high valyrian for little brother,Tyrion is the little brother of cersei as is Jaime because it was cersei that came out of the womb first making her the elder of jaime,so who is it that is the valonqar?

[Caspoi]

Shouldn't this belong to the main part of the forum? Anyway while there are more possibilities for the valonqar than Jaime and Tyrion I Think that Jaime is the one.

[Sinbold]

Well, the prophecy says "the valonqar" not "your valonqar", so it could possibly be anyone's little brother.  Catelyn's little brother and Cersei could both end up at Casterly Rock at the same time, so there's a possibility.  Of course, Arya wants a shot at Cersei and Arya will be able to change her face, and she's been thought a boy at times and masqueraded as a boy, and she's a younger sibling, so I think she's on the list of possibles.  I think it's not Jaime for 2 reasons, the first of which is because he's the second "obvious" choice after Tyrion, and second because Jaime has one golden hand that can only hold the stem of a goblet.  Be kinda hard for him to wrap that around anything as large as a throat.  I don't think it will be Tyrion, because he's already known as Kinslayer, and if the theory about his lineage is true is he really her valonqar?  And throw in that Cersei thinks it's him, and you can almost completely rule it out on that alone.  And again, it's "the", not "your".  Maggy says, "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."  Meaning she will see her children die before she does at the hands of the valonqar.  When her children die, she won't have any power in King's Landing and where will she have left to go?  Casterly Rock. 

 

From the wiki: Ser Edmure Tully is the son of Lord Hoster Tully and the heir to House Tully of Riverrun, the liege lords of the riverlands. He is the younger brother of Catelyn Stark.  In ADwD, Jaime Lannister mentions to Tytos Blackwood that after Roslin gives birth she and the child will be sent to join Edmure at Casterly Rock. 

 

My golden dragons are on Edmure.

[Lordsteve666]

It says "the valonqar" which doesn't seem to indicate if this is specifically a person or not.

I was thinking what if this little brother refers to not a person but a group, city, kingdom or organisation?
Is there anything in ASOIAF that could fit this sort of description?

[Yucef Menaerys]

Shouldn't this belong to the main part of the forum? Anyway while there are more possibilities for the valonqar than Jaime and Tyrion I Think that Jaime is the one.

Oh,what a mistake,I just realized it now,any idea on how I can move it back to the main forum?

[ambi76]

It's Tyrion and *sticks fingers in ears* "lalalala" I can't hear you there with your cheesy alternative.

[John Suburbs]

My money is on Tommen, who will die, rise as a wight, and then choke Cersei the way wights tend to do.

[Orphalesion]

It says "the valonqar" which doesn't seem to indicate if this is specifically a person or not.

I was thinking what if this little brother refers to not a person but a group, city, kingdom or organisation?
Is there anything in ASOIAF that could fit this sort of description?

 

Well there is the mercenary group known as the "Second Sons" u I think Valonqar is singular, not plural.

[Sinbold]

Food for thought:  The Hound is a little brother, too.  And he's known for being The Mountain's little brother.

[Jacques the Japer]

You fools

 

 

 

Its been unanimously agreed upon that Hodor is the Valonqar, Azor Ahai reborn, and the bloodravens little brother.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've been wondering about Edmure lately. He's Catelyn's little brother, and Catelyn has stated the following

 

"You're wrong," Catelyn said sharply. "Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black."

 

Compared to this

 

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

 

As the valonqar, as far as we know, is supposed to be male, so Catelyn herself can't be the valonqar. Edmure would still be an option, though.

[Adam Targaryen]

It would be cool if it was Jaime. Of course it's hard to choke someone with a golden hand, but think of the symbolism/irony. A power-hungry Lannister woman dying at the hands of gold, strangled by her lover, killed by the brother she loved and trusted etc. There's also the somewhat tinfoil idea that "Hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm" could be foreshadowing to this. I came up with it myself, but I'm not the only one, it seems: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/29o0f6/spoilers_all_for_hands_of_gold_are_always_cold/

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I have an answer that will actually make this thread appropriate to the subforum. 

 

I don't think that Azor Ahai is the only Long Night figure who will be "reborn" in the present day. Durran Durrandon's thread made a great case for Dany as the Amethyst Empress "reborn". And I think "The Valonqar" is another name for the Bloodstone Emperor. "The little brother" - the jealous younger brother who betrayed and murdered his empress and sister. My money is on Tyrion for this role. He seems to be on an upswing now, but I think he and Dany will have a falling out, he'll no longer see her as a worthy ruler, and he'll betray her (his queen)(possibly the treason for gold--or blood) and also murder his sister. Making him the Bloodstone Emperor Reborn aka The Valonqar.

[DarkSister1001]

I am not married to any one idea.  I've entertained it being Jaime since she is technically older, the Second Sons, Tommen and recently even Arya.  She's called a boy so often that I would really like a Stark to kill that broad. 

ETA:  The only theory I don't like is it being Tyrion.  She needs to be wrong about him. 

[Lady Barbrey]

When 'the younger brother' is mentioned, I actually think first of one person: Benjen Stark. 

[Lady Barbrey]

On 3/9/2016 at 4:46 PM, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I have an answer that will actually make this thread appropriate to the subforum. 

 

I don't think that Azor Ahai is the only Long Night figure who will be "reborn" in the present day. Durran Durrandon's thread made a great case for Dany as the Amethyst Empress "reborn". And I think "The Valonqar" is another name for the Bloodstone Emperor. "The little brother" - the jealous younger brother who betrayed and murdered his empress and sister. My money is on Tyrion for this role. He seems to be on an upswing now, but I think he and Dany will have a falling out, he'll no longer see her as a worthy ruler, and he'll betray her (his queen)(possibly the treason for gold--or blood) and also murder his sister. Making him the Bloodstone Emperor Reborn aka The Valonqar.

Well, as I said above, when I think of the younger brother I think of Benjen Stark first and foremost, perhaps because of Meera's fairytale where his status as the younger wolf brother seemed so emphasized. I've always wondered about Benjen and his role in past events. He seems the perfect secret villain if you can get past our general fondness for Starks. Did he betray Lyanna?  She honestly wasn't very nice to him, beating him up, and throwing a drink on him in front of all the nation's elites. He figures quite largely in that story for all we've rarely seen him since. And he was actually the Stark in Winterfell about the time the Others seem to start making a reappearance, at least at Craster's. And then he goes to the Wall right after that.  

Was it his actions that led directly or indirectly to his sister's elopement/abduction, the deaths of his father and brother, the debacle of Robert's Rebellion, the awakening of the Others, the attack on potential enemy greenseer Bran, the seemingly reluctant persuasion of Jon, a key prophetic figure, to go to the Wall, and a disappearance that coincides with growing Other strength?

Tinfoily conspiracy theory, I know, but if this was a mystery story, he'd be my number one suspect because he's so unlikely, but he's been on the spot and there's nothing to rule him out. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

10 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Well, as I said above, when I think of the younger brother I think of Benjen Stark first and foremost, perhaps because of Meera's fairytale where his status as the younger wolf brother seemed so emphasized. I've always wondered about Benjen and his role in past events. He seems the perfect secret villain if you can get past our general fondness for Starks. Did he betray Lyanna?  She honestly wasn't very nice to him, beating him up, and throwing a drink on him in front of all the nation's elites. He figures quite largely in that story for all we've rarely seen him since. And he was actually the Stark in Winterfell about the time the Others seem to start making a reappearance, at least at Craster's. And then he goes to the Wall right after that.  

Was it his actions that led directly or indirectly to his sister's elopement/abduction, the deaths of his father and brother, the debacle of Robert's Rebellion, the awakening of the Others, the attack on potential enemy greenseer Bran, the seemingly reluctant persuasion of Jon, a key prophetic figure, to go to the Wall, and a disappearance that coincides with growing Other strength?

Tinfoily conspiracy theory, I know, but if this was a mystery story, he'd be my number one suspect because he's so unlikely, but he's been on the spot and there's nothing to rule him out. 

Those are really interesting points, actually. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Benjen TBH, but you make a really good point about him possibly betraying Lyanna.

I subscribe to Lady Gwyn's Jouyeus Garde theory--that someone outed Lyanna as the KotL after the tourney, Aerys was still angry about it and ordered her arrested, and Rhaegar intervened and grabbed her before Aery's men could. Possibly the grabbing was initially against her will if he didn't have time to explain everything but strongly did not want her falling into his father's hands. This parallels Lancelot rescuing Guinevere from Arthur's troops. Lancelot takes Guinevere to his tower, the Jouyeuse Garde. Lady Gwyn thinks the name of the Tower of Joy is a big hint pointing to this scenario.

Anyway, all that to say that her theory leaves one big question--who outed Lyanna?

Who would have known? Rhaegar, but as her proposed rescuer he's not really a suspect. Which pretty much just leaves Howland Reed and Lyanna's brothers. Brandon probably wasn't in on it, Howland would hardly have any motive to spill the beans, Ned would surely angst over it in his POV chapter if it had been him--and we know that he is A+ at keeping secrets.

Which leaves Benjen. From Bran's vision of Benjen and Lyanna play-fighting in the Godswood we get a relationship dynamic that could easily lead to Benjen 1) knowing about Lyanna's escapade or at least being easily able to guess that KoLT is her and 2) potentially feeling so hurt/neglected/left out/taken for granted that he would actually let her secret slip to the wrong person. Following the pattern of the Bloodstone Emperor, jealousy seems like a solid motive as well. Jealousy that she's better at him at some "boy stuff" and is out getting all the attention.

However he probably didn't intend his revelation to lead to his sister's death. Guilt over that could easily lead him to the Wall.

I don't think I buy Benjen as a secret big bad, and I doubt he was anything but dutiful as the official Stark in Winterfell. I also don't think that the Others ever awakened--I think they were always there, just hadn't been provoked much in thousands of years (at least not by any Night's Watch members). So I don't think we need to look for someone who's actions awakened them. But jealous little Benjen outing Lyanna and, well, basically catalyzing all the crap of Robert's rebellion...yeah, that seems quite reasonable to me.

 

 

ETA: To keep this somewhat relevant to the OP--I have trouble seeing the logistics of Benjen killing Cercei. But if the above scenario is correct, then both Benjen and whoever does so are playing BSE-esque roles, in a sense both being the Valonqar (as perhaps multiple people will play the role of AA reborn). Benjen would be Lyanna's Valonqar as Tyrion might be Cercei's.

[hiemal]

If it's neither Jaime nor Tyrion, my money is on the Hound Sandor, after he wins Cleganebowl.

[Lady Barbrey]

4 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Those are really interesting points, actually. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Benjen TBH, but you make a really good point about him possibly betraying Lyanna.

I subscribe to Lady Gwyn's Jouyeus Garde theory--that someone outed Lyanna as the KotL after the tourney, Aerys was still angry about it and ordered her arrested, and Rhaegar intervened and grabbed her before Aery's men could. Possibly the grabbing was initially against her will if he didn't have time to explain everything but strongly did not want her falling into his father's hands. This parallels Lancelot rescuing Guinevere from Arthur's troops. Lancelot takes Guinevere to his tower, the Jouyeuse Garde. Lady Gwyn thinks the name of the Tower of Joy is a big hint pointing to this scenario.

Anyway, all that to say that her theory leaves one big question--who outed Lyanna?

Who would have known? Rhaegar, but as her proposed rescuer he's not really a suspect. Which pretty much just leaves Howland Reed and Lyanna's brothers. Brandon probably wasn't in on it, Howland would hardly have any motive to spill the beans, Ned would surely angst over it in his POV chapter if it had been him--and we know that he is A+ at keeping secrets.

Which leaves Benjen. From Bran's vision of Benjen and Lyanna play-fighting in the Godswood we get a relationship dynamic that could easily lead to Benjen 1) knowing about Lyanna's escapade or at least being easily able to guess that KoLT is her and 2) potentially feeling so hurt/neglected/left out/taken for granted that he would actually let her secret slip to the wrong person. Following the pattern of the Bloodstone Emperor, jealousy seems like a solid motive as well. Jealousy that she's better at him at some "boy stuff" and is out getting all the attention.

However he probably didn't intend his revelation to lead to his sister's death. Guilt over that could easily lead him to the Wall.

I don't think I buy Benjen as a secret big bad, and I doubt he was anything but dutiful as the official Stark in Winterfell. I also don't think that the Others ever awakened--I think they were always there, just hadn't been provoked much in thousands of years (at least not by any Night's Watch members). So I don't think we need to look for someone who's actions awakened them. But jealous little Benjen outing Lyanna and, well, basically catalyzing all the crap of Robert's rebellion...yeah, that seems quite reasonable to me.

 

 

ETA: To keep this somewhat relevant to the OP--I have trouble seeing the logistics of Benjen killing Cercei. But if the above scenario is correct, then both Benjen and whoever does so are playing BSE-esque roles, in a sense both being the Valonqar (as perhaps multiple people will play the role of AA reborn). Benjen would be Lyanna's Valonqar as Tyrion might be Cercei's.

I do think our reluctance to see Benjen in a negative light is the reason he makes a good suspect!  By 'awakening' the Others I don't mean they were sleeping but that Benjen provides some catalyst for their increasing activity in the area.  Anyway, that's speculation for another post, but yes, I was thinking of Benjen in a Bloodstone Emperor role, and I too think "the" Valonqar is connected to the BSE - the parallel of younger brother betraying and killing older sister is too strong. I just transposed that to the North. 

"The" Valonqar seems a title to me. Why not say "your" valonqar if it's one of Cersei's brothers?  It's like this story is already being mythologized in Maggy's vision and the importance is not the person but the role. Who will wear the mask of The Valonqar in this play?

[Gertrude]

I would be curious to see how who you see as the valonqar correlates to when you read the books. I've thought that Jaime would end up killing Cersei long before Feast was published. When I came across it while reading, it clicked in my head and it fit perfectly with my previous theory, so I didn't have to think about it much. It's a theory that has some teeth, I think, as I was far from the only one thinking along these lines in the early days of the forum. When people say it could be Sandor or Edmure, I always think that it's putting too much emphasis on the prophecy as a puzzle to be solved and the technical loopholes that can be jumped through to get there rather than a literary element that explains what's been in the books all along.