What was Janos Slynt's duty to Ned and Cersei?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The thing about this that never makes actual sense but does work for plot purposes is that Robert seams to have ZERO Stormlander or otherwise forces of his own in Kings Landing

 

Why would he have Stormlanders? He spent his childhood in the Vale and became King almost 20 years ago. He has spent little time in the Stormands and many of those Lords chose Aerys over him. Infact many of those lords chose Renly over Roberts sons.

 

Robert had the Kingsguard, the Gold Cloaks, some of the knights who went with Thoros would have been part of his entourage and there would have been others. Because Robb is a POV we get to see his captain of the guards, his personal guards and his steward. Robert would have had the same.

[Trigger Warning]

This is alot of supposition.

Basically, Slynt's duty was to obey whomever was made regent. That's Ned. He has the paperwork and was read by Barristan Selmy in front of the whole court. Slynt's duty is to not take bribes at all, instead of selling the Gold Cloaks to the highest bidder.

Let's face it. Slynt was never interested in doing "his duty" or the right thing.

 

 

He's made regent in the name of the king though, surely he loses that power if he tries to depose him in the eyes of royal loyalists. 

Basically, this is saying that any regent can replace the king that their power derives from at will with any flimsy justification and that everyone should just let him do it.  
 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

This is alot of supposition.

Basically, Slynt's duty was to obey whomever was made regent. That's Ned. He has the paperwork and was read by Barristan Selmy in front of the whole court. Slynt's duty is to not take bribes at all, instead of selling the Gold Cloaks to the highest bidder.

 

 

Ned was not yet Regent, he still had to be confirmed by the Small Council, he says so himself.

 

The Gold Cloaks have as much duty, if not more, towards the King than the Regent especially when that regent is trying to arrest the royal family.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Of course I understand that you disagree with me. How could you possibly take an argument as thinking that we're in agreement?

I don't want to be rude here, but clearly, you either don't understand what I'm saying, don't understand the text, or both. You keep saying things that make no sense, no matter how charitably I try to interpret them, except with that assumption. Some of it isn't even wrong, but not even about the right topic. I don't know how to keep responding to that, except to say that you're not helping the discussion of this thread in any way.

Perhaps you could help by clarifying:

 

1.  What of your posts I am not understanding

2.  What part of the text I do not understand

3.  What I am writing that does not make sense

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

 

He's made regent in the name of the king though, surely he loses that power if he tries to depose him in the eyes of royal loyalists. 

Basically, this is saying that any regent can replace the king that their power derives from at will with any flimsy justification and that everyone should just let him do it.  
 

He certainly cannot depose the real King.  He can certainly depose a pretender.  Joffrey was not the legal King because he was not Robert's legal heir. 

 

If Ned had walked into the throne room, a minute after Robert had died, and found a monkey sitting on the IT with a crown on it's head, screaming "I am the King", Ned has the authority, as Regent, to say "no, you are not the King, you are a fucking monkey".  Joffrey is basically the same thing as a temperamental bonobo with a crown sitting on a sharp seat screaming and flinging poo.  But if the monkey pays the LC of the GC enough money, he can certainly throw the Regent in jail and continue pretending to be the legal King. 

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

Ned was not yet Regent, he still had to be confirmed by the Small Council, he says so himself.

 

The Gold Cloaks have as much duty, if not more, towards the King than the Regent especially when that regent is trying to arrest the royal family.

Certainly. The GC have duty toward the real King, who happens to be Stannis.  Being "confirmed" is a formality, as designated by the actual word "confirmed".  Confirmation simply implies acknowledgement, not authorization. The Small Council cannot vote to not confirm a Regent. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Certainly. The GC have duty toward the real King, who happens to be Stannis.  Being "confirmed" is a formality, as designated by the actual word "confirmed".  Confirmation simply implies acknowledgement, not authorization. The Small Council cannot vote to not confirm a Regent. 

 

Of course they can. Ned can certainly contest it just as they can contest him being Regent. It is a two way street.

 

A dead Kings orders only carry so much weight, especially when the new King rejects those orders.

[Trigger Warning]

He certainly cannot depose the real King.  He can certainly depose a pretender.  Joffrey was not the legal King because he was not Robert's legal heir. 

 

If Ned had walked into the throne room, a minute after Robert had died, and found a monkey sitting on the IT with a crown on it's head, screaming "I am the King", Ned has the authority, as Regent, to say "no, you are not the King, you are a fucking monkey".  Joffrey is basically the same thing as a temperamental bonobo with a crown sitting on a sharp seat screaming and flinging poo.  But if the monkey pays the LC of the GC enough money, he can certainly throw the Regent in jail and continue pretending to be the legal King. 

 

That's the point though, you're arguing from the perspective of a reader. There's no reason for everyone else to not think that Joffrey is the real king so there's no reason for anyone to back the regent over the king especially when his power base in King's Landing is so small.

 

Let's say Ned is a different kind of man, let's say that Joffrey was legitimate and Ned as regent decided he didn't want a Lannister faction ruling the throne and wanted instead to crown Stannis and simply claims that the royal children are illigitimate, should the court still do their "duty" and obey the regent in deposing Robert's issue and heir just because the regent says so? 

If the monkey had been the heir apparent and crown prince for 13 years then fair enough.

 

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Let's say Ned is a different kind of man, let's say that Joffrey was legitimate and Ned as regent decided he didn't want a Lannister faction ruling the throne and wanted instead to crown Stannis and simply claims that the royal children are illigitimate, should the court still do their "duty" and obey the regent in deposing Robert's issue and heir just because the regent says so? 
 

I would say yes, as long as the Regent can make a good case.  This is why it's very important in how you pick a Regent.  That's why Robert appointed his BFF and person he trusted the most.  They have a lot of power and CAN depose Kings they call illegitimate.  I don't believe they can depose a legitimate King, but they are one of the primary arbiters of who is legitimate. 

 

At the very LEAST, from an outside point of view, if the reader had walked into the story right at that moment, it's enough for us to say "whoah, wait a minute, we need to figure out who is telling the truth", before we start arresting and beheading people.  If Jonos was unsure, he could have played the middle ground.  Arrest nobody, protect Joffrey, but do not arrest Ned either.  Let Ned present his evidence to a Great Council, etc. 

 

But Jonos never really cared who was "right".  He cared who paid him the most. 

[ConfusedCounselor]

 

Of course they can. Ned can certainly contest it just as they can contest him being Regent. It is a two way street.

 

A dead Kings orders only carry so much weight, especially when the new King rejects those orders.

 

 

Ned was not yet Regent, he still had to be confirmed by the Small Council, he says so himself.

 

The Gold Cloaks have as much duty, if not more, towards the King than the Regent especially when that regent is trying to arrest the royal family.

 

By the same token, Joffrey was not yet king. The previous king decides who will become king next, as well as who is regent until that King comes of age. His will could have made Tommen king, or Stannis if he wanted to, at least theoretically. If Ned is not confirmed as regent, neither is Joffrey as king. However, in that eventuality Ned would still be Hand untill a new ratified king apoints another one, and would still be the executor of the king's will. At least, according to the "rules"/formalities/legalities.

 

Sure, being backed by the Lannisters and having been the assumed heir for all his life gives Joffrey and his mom a lot of practical power, but it does not make him king.  

[Hugorfonics]

I never understood why Ned tried to bribe, instead of talking to him, doubt it would help, but still. In all probability though, Janos probably didnt really care for politics, he's just trying to live. Stannis tells Janos that he believes Slynt was guilty and corrupt and if it was up to him he'd be dead.
Putting Stannis on the throne will end bad for him, as opposed to being lord of Harrenhall. (Which ended great for him lol)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

By the same token, Joffrey was not yet king.

But he had been the Prince and heir since he was born. He was next in line, just like Robb was in next in line after Ned. That is the accepted norm in Westeros.


 
 

The previous king decides who will become king next, as well as who is regent until that King comes of age.

Well not really. Aegon iv wanted Daemon to be King and that never materialized. Furthermore Robert had not disinherited Joffrey and neither does the will claim that he had.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

What about: do not play the kingmaker at all. Do what the City Watch is supposed to do, keep the city at peace. Do not take Cersei's side, do not take Ned's side, do not arbitrate between those two, just be a copper, go and police the streets. And pledge his sword to the king only when there's some sort of a consensus who the king is.

 

Slynt's place wasn't to solve succession crises, his place was to keep tavern brawls at a reasonably manageable level, to arrest cutpurses and arsonists, that sort of thing.

[ConfusedCounselor]

But he had been the Prince and heir since he was born. He was next in line, just like Robb was in next in line after Ned. That is the accepted norm in Westeros.

 

 

Sure. And in practice that gives him a lot of power and makes it hard to go against him, as I did acknowledge. In terms of legalities it does not make him King until ratified. And even if he is King, he cannot dismiss his regent until he comes of age or the regent is found unfit for some reason in some sort of procedure. 

 

Well not really. Aegon iv wanted Daemon to be King and that never materialized. Furthermore Robert had not disinherited Joffrey and neither does the will claim that he had.

 

 

Just because he did not dare to name a different heir did not mean he could not. In fact, the case of Aegon 4 actually reinforces the idea that a king can, at least theoretically. Everything indicates that it is possible to name someone else but your oldest trueborn son as heir but not recommended if you favor the stability of the realm at all.

Also, Roberts will does not need to disinherit Joffrey if he is not in fact his lawfull heir. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Sure. And in practice that gives him a lot of power and makes it hard to go against him, as I did acknowledge. In terms of legalities it does not make him King until ratified. And even if he is King, he cannot dismiss his regent until he comes of age or the regent is found unfit for some reason in some sort of procedure.

 
Well yeah, Ned had his men draw their swords and try to arrest the royal family. When King Edward claimed that he was a prisoner of his regent, Edward Seymour, he was removed from his position.
 
He'd done enough to warrant his removal and arrest.
 
 

Just because he did not dare to name a different heir did not mean he could not.

 

Robert had died hours before and gave no indication that he wanted another heir. Of course everyone is going to presume that Joffrey is his heir, nothing from Robert or the will indicates anything different.
 

Also, Roberts will does not need to disinherit Joffrey if he is not in fact his lawfull heir.

Well when paternity tests come to Westeros then that can be proven. Viserys I grandchildren were believed to be bastards, Viserys either didn't care or didn't believe them and punished those who claimed different.

 

Robert was the one man (as King) who could legally proclaim them bastards, he never did.

[ConfusedCounselor]

Well yeah, Ned had his men draw their swords and try to arrest the royal family. When King Edward claimed that he was a prisoner of his regent, Edward Seymour, he was removed from his position.
 
He'd done enough to warrant his removal and arrest.

 

 

Except no one argued that. No one said: 'see, the will makes Joffrey his heir, and yes that makes Ned regent, but he commits treason by trying to arrest the king, so for that reason he should be removed.'

 

You'd think ripping up the will of the previous king is probably 'enough' as well then? Crowning a new king without checking the will of the previous king and in absence of the hand of the king isn't fishy either? Better arrest Cercei as well... 

 

Well when paternity tests come to Westeros then that can be proven. Viserys I grandchildren were believed to be bastards, Viserys either didn't care or didn't believe them and punished those who claimed different.

 

Robert was the one man (as King) who could legally proclaim them bastards, he never did.

 

 

The burden of proof does not seem quite that high in Westeros. I see no reason why the book, the testimony of both Ned and Stannis and a handful of blackhaired bastards could not suffice. Any actual council in which this occurred would more likely be swayed by political interest then proof anyway.  

 

Look if Slynt had been a dutifull, law following man, he would have had a difficult decision to make. However, in terms of power, Ned was the continuity, unlike what you claim. 

[Valyrian Blade]

Honestly everyone at the court room probably though Robert's will was false.

Cersei crowned Joffrey, and Ned said Joffrey wasnt Roberts heir. For all we know Littlefinger could have told Slynt Lord Eddard was a traitor and that his duty was to back Cersei.

So yes Janos did his duty, even though he's a lannister dog from the very beginning.

[Jasta11]

The thing about this that never makes actual sense but does work for plot purposes is that Robert seams to have ZERO Stormlander or otherwise forces of his own in KL.  He may be a drunk and a lout at this stage of his life & still thinks himself the best fighter in the world yet it's against character he'd be so dumb that his only personal protection is a KG that has his hateful wife's bro on it and whatever other weaksauce appointees, a ridiculous amount of his hateful wife's household guard all over the place ("surrounded by Lannisters - their blond hair and smug satisfied faces," c'mon Bob!), and a corrupt CityWatch that his hateful wife or Littlefinger or whomever else can bribe and thus swing sides at need.  King Bob was only left so exposed b/c it functioned to further the plot.

 

Ned should have listened to Renly and took the Bastard 'royal' children into custody immediately.  Cersei was smart to crown Joff ASAP - the optics of that alone are very hard to undo.  A cowardly simp like J. Slynt will act in favor of whoever has the crown on their head at the time, no matter the legitimacy. 

 

True, it seems weird that the entirety of Robert's protection lies in the hands of a KG that either hates him or is sold to Cercei, and Lannister cronies. Given that at some point there were 3 Baratheons on the Small Council, including the Master of Law who presumably has something to say about such things, this is very odd.

[ConfusedCounselor]

Honestly everyone at the court room probably though Robert's will was false.

No one did. The will was signed, had multiple witnesses iirc and did not contain anything surprising at all. 

 

 

Cersei crowned Joffrey, and Ned said Joffrey wasnt Roberts heir.

Without consulting the will or the hand. The second part is indeed problematic. 

 

 

For all we know Littlefinger could have told Slynt Lord Eddard was a traitor and that his duty was to back Cersei.

 

No, we do know, he bought Slynt. It's in the books. 

So yes Janos did his duty,

 

How did he do his duty if doing the dutiful thing wasn't even on his mind? He was clearly corrupt. 

 

even though he's a lannister dog from the very beginning.

 

Actually he wasn't. He was just very corrupt and Littlefinger bought him for the Lannisters.

 

 

 

Sorry, can't really agree with anything.  :dunno:

[Trigger Warning]

I never understood why Ned tried to bribe, instead of talking to him, doubt it would help, but still. In all probability though, Janos probably didnt really care for politics, he's just trying to live. Stannis tells Janos that he believes Slynt was guilty and corrupt and if it was up to him he'd be dead.
Putting Stannis on the throne will end bad for him, as opposed to being lord of Harrenhall. (Which ended great for him lol)

Thinking along this line, even if Janos wasn't a piece of shit would any of us have acted differently? 

He's basically being offered what is likely treason against the accepted royal family and maybe some reward based on the word of this newish hand from the North vs being given a lordship to support the accepted royal family you've served for years. What if Ned is just ambitious, or is merely anti-lannister, what if Tywin comes knocking in a few months? What if the coup fails or only lasts a few weeks. 

Even if they offered the same rewards or none at all, why should he choose Ned over the queen and he has to pick a side, the chaos of the accepted crown prince being declared a bastard and Lannister and Stark men clashing in the city will draw the garrison of the city into the fighting. 

If anything the best thing for Ned (if he had offered enough) would be that Janos is corrupt because if he wasn't he'd have probably supported the crown prince regardless.