Do the seven exist?

[Mithras]

Demons are about half a step below polytheistic gawds in the scale of supernatural beings.  I agree there are plenty of references to pacts with supernatural beings, but there are just as many, if not more, references to deities.  If one is ambiguous, I have a hard time believing that the other is not. 

 

Of course, this leaves open the question as to whether the Faith of the Seven is actually polytheistic or not. 

 

But the "ice demons" seem to be a very solid race and there are people like Craster who have made pacts with them and sacrificed to them. Maybe the other demons are similar races living in physical space. They might have an inherent capacity to do magic just like the CotF seem to have.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

But the "ice demons" seem to be a very solid race and there are people like Craster who have made pacts with them and sacrificed to them. Maybe the other demons are similar races living in physical space. They might have an inherent capacity to do magic just like the CotF seem to have.

Then we're "blurring" the line of what it means to be a "demon".  Traditionally a demon is a counterpart to an angel.  It is a supernatural transcendent being, more spiritual than material.  Like the demon Varys's dick was burnt for.  The Others are decidedly immanent and material.  As you say, they are not much distinguishable from the CotF.  But if we were to limit demons to the immanent and the material, I would agree that they would be far removed from polytheistic gods, rather than being only a half step removed.

[Falcon2908]

No, GRRM has said gods do not exist in asoiaf

[Balerion the kitten]

No, GRRM has said gods do not exist in asoiaf

I don't think he's ever said that.
It's funny though, it seems people's personal opinions on gods are affecting their own views on ASOIAF gods. I just take it as it is - meaning I don't really care.
Answering the OP, Davos had a supposed vision from the mother.

[Muffin King]

When I think about it, I believe there is some greater force that allows people to do supernatural things, and the people take it as it is. But this leads to the question of whether it's a force of nature (or a resovoir of magic) or poweful conscience beings that are aware of what they are doing. Perhaps GRRM will allow us to interpret it as we will.

[Mithras]

Then we're "blurring" the line of what it means to be a "demon".  Traditionally a demon is a counterpart to an angel.  It is a supernatural transcendent being, more spiritual than material.  Like the demon Varys's dick was burnt for.  The Others are decidedly immanent and material.  As you say, they are not much distinguishable from the CotF.  But if we were to limit demons to the immanent and the material, I would agree that they would be far removed from polytheistic gods, rather than being only a half step removed.

 

Whoever built those oily black structures, they seem to be somewhere below the gods in traditional sense but definitely above the humans. Angels or demons are below the gods but above the humans. The demon that enjoyed the dick of Varys might be a physical being speaking through the fire, not much different than Bran using weirwood trees or the glass candles of Valyrians.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

Whoever built those oily black structures, they seem to be somewhere below the gods in traditional sense but definitely above the humans. Angels or demons are below the gods but above the humans. The demon that enjoyed the dick of Varys might be a physical being speaking through the fire, not much different than Bran using weirwood trees or the glass candles of Valyrians.

Not sure which oily black structure you are referring to.  I know that the people who built the Wall, and the forts in the far east, could utilize some powerful magic.  I don't necessarily believe that they were "above humans" in a meaningful way, any more than the CotF, the Red Priests, or the Pyromancers, or the Warlocks of Qarth.  The Valyrians could work magic with stone, and they were decidedly human.  So being able to utilize magic does not imply trans-humanism or supra-humanism.  Bran is definitely not an angel or demon, so that if there is a physical being behind dick burning, I'm convinced that they no more a "demon" than Oscar Diggs is a wizard. 

[Mithras]

Not sure which oily black structure you are referring to.  I know that the people who built the Wall, and the forts in the far east, could utilize some powerful magic.  I don't necessarily believe that they were "above humans" in a meaningful way, any more than the CotF, the Red Priests, or the Pyromancers, or the Warlocks of Qarth.  The Valyrians could work magic with stone, and they were decidedly human.  So being able to utilize magic does not imply trans-humanism or supra-humanism.  Bran is definitely not an angel or demon, so that if there is a physical being behind dick burning, I'm convinced that they no more a "demon" than Oscar Diggs is a wizard. 

 

Five Forts, Yeen. These structures seem to extend beyond human limits and capabilities.

 

I think the concept of gods and demons in George’s mind are similar to Lovecraft and I use the term demon in that same fashion. Those “gods” of Lovecraft are actually enigmatic aliens which are beyond human capabilities or morality. It is very easy for such beings (whether actual aliens or some long-forgotten elder race) to act as gods (i.e. perform magic for those who sacrifice for them) but in fact they might simply be a race that have their own agenda.

 

I am quite confident that there is a fraud going on.

 

When a foolish sorcerer makes a blood sacrifice believing that he will perform a spell, what actually takes place is that he releases a certain amount of mana. Whichever demon out there uses only a fraction of that released mana to perform the magic which the sorcerer intended. The rest of the released mana is consumed by the demon to use however it likes and I have no doubt that it is not used for good purposes. Sometimes the demon might use all the released mana and not yield any result to the sorcerer because the spells in ASOIAF do not always work. That scheme increases the mana harness of the demons and also forces the sorcerer to delve deeper into magic and sacrifice more.

 

In order to restore the balance of the world, people should stop trying to do magic.

 

Remember, the Undying lured Dany into a trap. They were intending to feed on her life-force. The same trap is right there in Asshai in a much grander scale. All the sorcerers in the world come there and make sacrifices in a horrifying rate.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

I think the concept of gods and demons in George’s mind are similar to Lovecraft and I use the term demon in that same fashion. Those “gods” of Lovecraft are actually enigmatic aliens which are beyond human capabilities or morality. It is very easy for such beings (whether actual aliens or some long-forgotten elder race) to act as gods (i.e. perform magic for those who sacrifice for them) but in fact they might simply be a race that have their own agenda.

 

I am quite confident that there is a fraud going on.

 

When a foolish sorcerer makes a blood sacrifice believing that he will perform a spell, what actually takes place is that he releases a certain amount of mana. Whichever demon out there uses only a fraction of that released mana to perform the magic which the sorcerer intended. The rest of the released mana is consumed by the demon to use however it likes and I have no doubt that it is not used for good purposes. Sometimes the demon might use all the released mana and not yield any result to the sorcerer because the spells in ASOIAF do not always work. That scheme increases the mana harness of the demons and also forces the sorcerer to delve deeper into magic and sacrifice more.

 

I think that you are attempting to systematize and explain phenomena that Martin presents, and desires to remain, as mysterious.  Your theories explain and systematize magic.  But Martin likes to use magic in a mysterious way, and has recently admitted that there is no "system" to his magic in ASOIAF.  You're approaching magic and supernatural beings as things that can be figured out and explained.  But I think that in ASOIAF, these things are and will remain inexplicable. 

[Mithras]

I think that you are attempting to systematize and explain phenomena that Martin presents, and desires to remain, as mysterious.  Your theories explain and systematize magic.  But Martin likes to use magic in a mysterious way, and has recently admitted that there is no "system" to his magic in ASOIAF.  You're approaching magic and supernatural beings as things that can be figured out and explained.  But I think that in ASOIAF, these things are and will remain inexplicable. 

 

Martin also said that magic will become more and more prominent in the rest of the books. So, to avoid deux ex machinas, he will have to make some sense. The scheme I drew has some hints in favor and a big twist might be revealed by George that the Citadel’s anti-magic conspiracy might actually be a good thing.

[Neilos]

We haven't had any proof that R'hllor or the Old Gods exist at all; we've had some circumstantial evidence, that's all (though it's still stronger than the evidence for the Seven). All we know is that certain Red Priests seem to have some genuine mystical power (though it's source is unconfirmed); and that certain people can see through the eyes of Weirwoods, through time, and that this (ROUGHLY) corresponds with old beliefs about the Old Gods looking through the eyes of Weirwoods. All extremely circumstantial.

 

Now, the Seven... we've seen bugger all evidence for, really. I'm pretty sure they don't exist. 

[~DarkHorse~]

I don't think so.

They are human constructs. There is a God for everyone to seek out help/comfort from and relate to e.g. men going into battle pray to the warrior, mothers who want their sons to come home pray to the Mother. Out of all of the Gods in the series, they seem to be the most 'make believe' but relatable, so they gather allot of support based on their human appeal, not their credibility.

[The Bold Wolf]

I always thought that R'hllor was real and that the Old Gods were as well. The Drowned God might be too. The Seven are fake to me though. 

 

It's up for interpretation. I think GRRM sews enough doubt into the subject to make it more real to us, and gives us enough to have us believe that there might be real Gods in his world. 

[falcotron]

I've heard it said that in some of the older documents of Judaism, (one of) the original monotheistic religions, the word used for god is actually a plural form. Which could possibly translate to gods.

You're thinking of "elohim". It's true, and not just in the older documents, but all over the Bible, and the Talmud and other commentaries.¹ But I don't think it's really relevant here. This is just a case of vertical translation. A 2nd century BC Jew praying to "elohim" (or its Aramaic translation "elaha") was praying to a singular God; the fact that it come from a plural word 500+ years ago that was still occasionally used didn't confuse anyone, or even subconsciously color their beliefs.² Just as a 21st century American who says "the data is in" is using it as a singular/mass noun; the fact that it came from a plural word 50 years ago that's still occasionally used doesn't confuse anyone.

I don't think that's the case with the Faith of the Seven. The Common word "gods" is plural, and a 4th century Westerosi using it intends it as a plural, because most of them really don't understand the whole 7 gods or 1 thing, just as most Christians through history didn't understand the whole Trinitarian thing.

¹ The word was originally the plural of "el", meaning "magistrate" or "god", and it's used that way many times in the Bible. But it's also used as an epithet for "God" many times, especially in the later books. To make things even more fun, the verb agreement usually goes along with the meaning, but occasionally doesn't go. And there's at least one place where it's clearly used for a specific pagan god.

² Although they might have gotten confusing reading the Torah and trying to work out which of the ancient Hebrews were monotheists and which weren't, that's just a question about when your dumb ancestors finally figured out that there are no other gods, not about whether there actually are.

[Hol Horse]

The Seven are false gods who serve no other purpose than to be offered to the eternal pyre.

[ConfusedCounselor]

You're thinking of "elohim". It's true, and not just in the older documents, but all over the Bible, and the Talmud and other commentaries.¹ But I don't think it's really relevant here. This is just a case of vertical translation. A 2nd century BC Jew praying to "elohim" (or its Aramaic translation "elaha") was praying to a singular God; the fact that it come from a plural word 500+ years ago that was still occasionally used didn't confuse anyone, or even subconsciously color their beliefs.² Just as a 21st century American who says "the data is in" is using it as a singular/mass noun; the fact that it came from a plural word 50 years ago that's still occasionally used doesn't confuse anyone.

I don't think that's the case with the Faith of the Seven. The Common word "gods" is plural, and a 4th century Westerosi using it intends it as a plural, because most of them really don't understand the whole 7 gods or 1 thing, just as most Christians through history didn't understand the whole Trinitarian thing.

¹ The word was originally the plural of "el", meaning "magistrate" or "god", and it's used that way many times in the Bible. But it's also used as an epithet for "God" many times, especially in the later books. To make things even more fun, the verb agreement usually goes along with the meaning, but occasionally doesn't go. And there's at least one place where it's clearly used for a specific pagan god.

² Although they might have gotten confusing reading the Torah and trying to work out which of the ancient Hebrews were monotheists and which weren't, that's just a question about when your dumb ancestors finally figured out that there are no other gods, not about whether there actually are.

 

Thanks, interesting stuff.  :thumbsup:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Do the seven exist? I'm sure they don't. Even if we ever find out that the Old Gods and Rhaloo exist, we'll know the 7 don't exist.

Martin defines himself as an atheist/agnostic. So no gods. Religion with regards to R'hllor/the Old Gods is simply the parts of nature they don't understand.

 
 

Because an author couldn't possibly write a fictional world in which gods exist if he is an atheist/agnostic?

There is an interview somewhere in which he says that he was raised catholic and certain things are hard to let behind.

For example, a writer that was raised catholic will rather see and even use a cross as a symbol of resurrection or sacrifice, whether such writer still believes or not. Also, because it's an universal symbol.

I agree that he has rather chosen to make the magic of his world ambiguous and not determinate by any god, but I doubt it's due to his views on religion.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I think there is a great deal of room between an agnostic, and a hard core atheist. One says there is a possibility of diety, the other does not.

But the key is the conflation between authorial belief, and authorial voice. An author may very well believe that there is no magic in the real world, while creating a world full of magic.

From the tone of the series, I gather that the nature of the ambiguity as concerning Gods is mean to leave belief in them as a choice of the reader, as this may be Martin's take on actual divinity. There will be no proof for or against, but there will be plenty to lead people to believe, and this may include the reader.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But the key is the conflation between authorial belief, and authorial voice. An author may very well believe that there is no magic in the real world, while creating a world full of magic.

 

Actually, Rowling was many times asked if she believes in magic and she does not. First time I read that I felt a bit disappointed, tbh, but then I realised it matter little because she really believed in the magic of her books.

 

One doesn't need to believe in the same a character believes. I'm not exactly pro-abortion yet I'm writing about characters who talk and act very casually about it :dunno:

[Jankmaster]

I think that by the end Davos and the Kingsmen will get some sort of "Morale Boost" like Rohan esqe ability to charge and win that will said to come from the Seven. 

 

TBH the real magic of the Seven is actually more tangible than any other religion in the series... It's political  power!!! 

 

I dunnoo, I just got back spending most of my time on the Alternate History board.