What if Maegor didn't usurp the throne?

[shockwave]

What would have happened if Maegor didn't come back to usurp the throne when Aenys died? What would have happened when Aegon 1.5 became king Aegon II?

 

Aegon 1.5 would be king with his sister Rhaena as Queen. But the Faith Militant would give him a lot of trouble. Maybe he might have been the last Targ King, without Maegor to bring the Faith to its knees?

[Fire Eater]

For starters, that means Jaehaerys I never gets the IT, or his line, meaning everything from the Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellions to Robert's Rebellion and the War of Five Kings doesn't happen. Maegor likely would have served as Hand as Aegon put him in charge of crushing some of the Faith's rebellion. Also, Aegon likely wouldn't have faced as many uprisings as Maegor if he lacked his uncle's psychopathy and cruelty. 

 

Viserys and Jaehaerys would have likely been given seats of their own to support the two cadet branches of House Targaryen. I think Jaehaerys would eventually earn himself a seat on Aegon's small council. 

[Lord Varys]

Actually, the Targaryen would most likely have been deposed if that was the case. People forget that the Faith Militant was successfully rebelling against Aenys I when he suddenly died, and if Maegor hadn't returned and taken it upon himself to restore the Targaryen dynasty, the High Septon would have taken over the Seven Kingdoms and established some form of theocracy.

 

Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena were apparently in no position to lay claim to the Iron Throne upon their father's death. They were besieged in Crakehall Castle by the rebels while the Faith Militant had actually driven Aenys and his family out of KL and taken possession of the royal manse on Visenya's Hill (being the residence of the royal family while the Red Keep was constructed) as well as the unfinished Red Keep and the Iron Throne itself.

 

Aegon and Rhaena also seemed to lack dragons indicated by the fact that Aegon eventually uses Quicksilver, his late father's dragon, to challenge Maegor rather than his own dragon. Either Rhaena and Aegon didn't have any dragons at this point or - more likely - the Faith Militant attacking and eventually besieging them at Crakehall successfully killed them (that makes more sense since it would be rather strange if Aegon I and Aenys I would give hatchlings to Jaehaerys and Alysanne but not to the elder children - one of whom was Aenys' heir).

 

Not to mention that Prince Aegon was only fifteen in 41 AC when he was married to his sister, and subsequently only sixteen when his father died.

 

The scenario of Maegor not returning to Westeros to take the throne makes only sense, I think, if we assume that Visenya has suddenly a heart attack around the same time Aenys dies (i.e. she doesn't mount Vhagar to fetch him back). Aegon could only recall Maegor and name him Hand if he ever returns to Dragonstone or KL to be crowned. Not a very likely scenario if the Faith Militant double their effort to get rid of the Targaryens altogether in the wake of the news of Aenys' demise.

[The silver dragon]

The end of the targaryen Dynasty.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

There would be Seven Kingdoms again .​

[Fire Eater]

 

Actually, the Targaryen would most likely have been deposed if that was the case. People forget that the Faith Militant was successfully rebelling against Aenys I when he suddenly died, and if Maegor hadn't returned and taken it upon himself to restore the Targaryen dynasty, the High Septon would have taken over the Seven Kingdoms and established some form of theocracy.

 

Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena were apparently in no position to lay claim to the Iron Throne upon their father's death. They were besieged in Crakehall Castle by the rebels while the Faith Militant had actually driven Aenys and his family out of KL and taken possession of the royal manse on Visenya's Hill (being the residence of the royal family while the Red Keep was constructed) as well as the unfinished Red Keep and the Iron Throne itself.

 

Aegon and Rhaena also seemed to lack dragons indicated by the fact that Aegon eventually uses Quicksilver, his late father's dragon, to challenge Maegor rather than his own dragon. Either Rhaena and Aegon didn't have any dragons at this point or - more likely - the Faith Militant attacking and eventually besieging them at Crakehall successfully killed them (that makes more sense since it would be rather strange if Aegon I and Aenys I would give hatchlings to Jaehaerys and Alysanne but not to the elder children - one of whom was Aenys' heir).

 

Not to mention that Prince Aegon was only fifteen in 41 AC when he was married to his sister, and subsequently only sixteen when his father died.

 

The scenario of Maegor not returning to Westeros to take the throne makes only sense, I think, if we assume that Visenya has suddenly a heart attack around the same time Aenys dies (i.e. she doesn't mount Vhagar to fetch him back). Aegon could only recall Maegor and name him Hand if he ever returns to Dragonstone or KL to be crowned. Not a very likely scenario if the Faith Militant double their effort to get rid of the Targaryens altogether in the wake of the news of Aenys' demise.

Not likely, Aegon wasn't apparently weak like his father. The argument is if Maegor hadn't usurped the throne. He could still have returned to deal with the Faith Militant, and not taken the IT to help his nephew. After all, he did help Aenys in crushing rebellions. 

 

Rhaena had a dragon, Dreamfyre. 

 

Even if Maegor hadn't arrived, Visenya, the warrior, was still alive and she had Vhagar which she wasn't afraid to use. Besides, we know Aegon and Rhaena managed to get away from Crakehall, even though Maegor is mentioned as going there, and Aegon would have gotten Quicksilver, and combine that with Vhagar and Dreamfyre along with Targaryen loyalist forces then they likely could have crushed the rebellion without Maegor. 

[Lord Varys]

I reserve judgment on Prince Aegon until we learn more about him. All we know is that he eventually made an attempt on the Iron Throne in 43 AC, but we don't know anything on his character or his state of mind. Could be that he was a more forceful person than his father but it is also possible that he closely resembled Aenys or was even slightly ma. That he was pissed that Maegor dared to steal the throne that by rights belonged to him doesn't mean he was an exceptional guy. You don't need to be a super warrior to not swallow that (e.g. Viserys III). Aegon not being a splendid warrior/great guy could explain why apparently pretty much no one declared for him, not even his own host, Lord Lyman Lannister.

 

Even if Maegor did not usurp the throne, Prince Aegon may never have ascended it - say, if the siege had continued and ended with Aegon and Rhaena being murdered. If we have Maegor returning without the intention of claiming the throne for himself there wouldn't have been a Trial of Seven, and subsequently Maegor never would have gained the high ground on the Faith Militant/High Septon. After the Trial of Seven it would have been clear that the Seven made him King of Westeros. It also seems that it was Maegor the King and not Maegor the Prince the people were flocking to. But I'd agree that there is a chance that Aegon could have gained control of the Realm if both Maegor and Visenya had helped him, say, by immediately flying their dragons to Crakehall to end the siege there. But who knows whether Aegon and Rhaena had survived for long if Maegor hadn't crowned himself and thus, perhaps, forced the Faith Militant to abandon the siege and march against KL.

 

The Rhaena/Dreamfyre situation is complicated/unclear. Yandel and TPatQ both suggest that Vermithor was the and oldest Targaryen dragon after Balerion and Vhagar (Yandel does this during the reign of Jaehaerys I and TPatQ states that Vermithor is the biggest/oldest dragon after the death of Vhagar). Considering that Rhaena is much older than Jaehaerys (Rhaena is born in 23 AC whereas Jaehaerys is only born in 34 AC - that is a difference of eleven years) Vermithor can only be older than Dreamfyre if she hatched after Vermithor - which, if we assume Vermithor didn't have rider prior to Jaehaerys - would mean that Rhaena could only have claimed a dragon rather late. I've put forth the idea that Vermithor might have been Prince Viserys' dragon before he was claimed by Jaehaerys, but that is just an idea - and it would still suggest that Dreamfyre would be older than Vermithor. We know that six hatchlings were born on Dragonstone during the reign of the Conqueror (from 'The Sons of the Dragon') and only one of them was Quicksilver. One assumes/expects that Aegon and Aenys gave Rhaena a dragon immediately/shortly after her birth, just as Aegon gave Aenys Quicksilver when he was still a toddler. And Aenys would have continued to give all his children dragons - Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne. Especially in light of the fact that two additional dragons hatched on Dragonstone in 37 AC, after the rebellions were put down.

 

We know that Aegon and Rhaena were on a progress when they were attacked and eventually besieged. Now, a royal progress of the king's heirs at this time would most certainly have included their dragons, yet if Dreamfyre had been with Rhaena were the hell was then Aegon's dragon? If he had a dragon, it was have died, or else he could not possibly have claimed Quicksilver after his father's death. The little we know about Rhaena during the whole war suggests that she wasn't at the Gods Eye (possibly still weak from the birth of the twins) and remained at Casterly Rock from where she eventually fled to Fair Isle. Since she hid with her children underground she cannot have possibly had her dragon close-by. And if Dreamfyre had been with her one would expect she had taken another course entirely and used her to rally lords and knights to her banner or free her mother and her siblings who were imprisoned on Dragonstone.

 

In that sense, the idea that Rhaena and Aegon's original dragons were killed by the rebels attacking them, explaining why they were besieged at Crakehall Castle in the first place. If they had had dragons (or at least one dragon, Dreamfyre) they could have escaped on dragonback (or at least Rhaena could have). One assumes that the siege of Crakehall ended either after Maegor had taken KL and the Faith Militant was rallying forces to fight against him or after Lord Lyman had marshaled an army of Westermen to end it (one assume that he may not have been overly happy with the Faith Militant running amok in his lands). Anyhow, somehow Aegon and Rhaena ended as refugees at Casterly Rock in 42-3 AC until Aegon decided to challenge Maegor. Somehow he got Quicksilver but we don't really know how that happened - the dragon most likely was with Aenys on Dragonstone when he died.

[Fire Eater]

I reserve judgment on Prince Aegon until we learn more about him. All we know is that he eventually made an attempt on the Iron Throne in 43 AC, but we don't know anything on his character or his state of mind. Could be that he was a more forceful person than his father but it is also possible that he closely resembled Aenys or was even slightly ma. That he was pissed that Maegor dared to steal the throne that by rights belonged to him doesn't mean he was an exceptional guy. You don't need to be a super warrior to not swallow that (e.g. Viserys III). Aegon not being a splendid warrior/great guy could explain why apparently pretty much no one declared for him, not even his own host, Lord Lyman Lannister.

 

Even if Maegor did not usurp the throne, Prince Aegon may never have ascended it - say, if the siege had continued and ended with Aegon and Rhaena being murdered. If we have Maegor returning without the intention of claiming the throne for himself there wouldn't have been a Trial of Seven, and subsequently Maegor never would have gained the high ground on the Faith Militant/High Septon. After the Trial of Seven it would have been clear that the Seven made him King of Westeros. It also seems that it was Maegor the King and not Maegor the Prince the people were flocking to. But I'd agree that there is a chance that Aegon could have gained control of the Realm if both Maegor and Visenya had helped him, say, by immediately flying their dragons to Crakehall to end the siege there. But who knows whether Aegon and Rhaena had survived for long if Maegor hadn't crowned himself and thus, perhaps, forced the Faith Militant to abandon the siege and march against KL.

 

Except Aegon did manage to gather an army to oppose Maegor's at the Battle Beneath the God's Eye, and that means he was willing to go to battle compared to his father who fled KL and was too scared to use the dragons. It also takes courage to go up against the likes of Maegor and the Black Dread. That also means he did have some political skills and garnered some respect amongst the lords despite Maegor's fierce reputation and the Faith's denunciation. Lord Lannister declined to join him not because of the Faith, but because of Maegor and the Black Dread, the rider having a reputation for cruelty and brutality. 

 

Aegon and Rhaena did escape, and they were still Crakehall's guests, and protected by guest right, the violation of which is a great sin even to the Faith, although to be fair the Faith didn't exactly play nice with the murder of Murmison and attacking Aenys's family which was mostly children in the RK. They likely found some way to get out during the siege as I doubt the Faith Militant would abandon a chance to capture the heirs to the Targaryen dynasty. Maegor likely still could have had a trial be seven only issued to those as a challenge to Aegon's rule. 

 

 

The Rhaena/Dreamfyre situation is complicated/unclear. Yandel and TPatQ both suggest that Vermithor was the and oldest Targaryen dragon after Balerion and Vhagar (Yandel does this during the reign of Jaehaerys I and TPatQ states that Vermithor is the biggest/oldest dragon after the death of Vhagar). Considering that Rhaena is much older than Jaehaerys (Rhaena is born in 23 AC whereas Jaehaerys is only born in 34 AC - that is a difference of eleven years) Vermithor can only be older than Dreamfyre if she hatched after Vermithor - which, if we assume Vermithor didn't have rider prior to Jaehaerys - would mean that Rhaena could only have claimed a dragon rather late. I've put forth the idea that Vermithor might have been Prince Viserys' dragon before he was claimed by Jaehaerys, but that is just an idea - and it would still suggest that Dreamfyre would be older than Vermithor. We know that six hatchlings were born on Dragonstone during the reign of the Conqueror (from 'The Sons of the Dragon') and only one of them was Quicksilver. One assumes/expects that Aegon and Aenys gave Rhaena a dragon immediately/shortly after her birth, just as Aegon gave Aenys Quicksilver when he was still a toddler. And Aenys would have continued to give all his children dragons - Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne. Especially in light of the fact that two additional dragons hatched on Dragonstone in 37 AC, after the rebellions were put down.

 

We know that Aegon and Rhaena were on a progress when they were attacked and eventually besieged. Now, a royal progress of the king's heirs at this time would most certainly have included their dragons, yet if Dreamfyre had been with Rhaena were the hell was then Aegon's dragon? If he had a dragon, it was have died, or else he could not possibly have claimed Quicksilver after his father's death. The little we know about Rhaena during the whole war suggests that she wasn't at the Gods Eye (possibly still weak from the birth of the twins) and remained at Casterly Rock from where she eventually fled to Fair Isle. Since she hid with her children underground she cannot have possibly had her dragon close-by. And if Dreamfyre had been with her one would expect she had taken another course entirely and used her to rally lords and knights to her banner or free her mother and her siblings who were imprisoned on Dragonstone.

Rhaena rode Dreamfyre out of KL at the end of Maegor's reign meaning she was old enough to ride, and Dreamfyre's egg was likely part of the clutch containing Vermithor and Silverwing's eggs. Maegor didn't want any hatchling or dragon egg, and the same might have been said for Aegon, possibly wanting to mount one of the older dragons when the rider kicked the bucket.

 

Rhaena could have gone to Crakehall on horseback given Aegon went on horseback, and it would have been likely if she rode alongside him. Otherwise, they would have simply flown away on Dreamfyre. 

 

In that sense, the idea that Rhaena and Aegon's original dragons were killed by the rebels attacking them, explaining why they were besieged at Crakehall Castle in the first place. If they had had dragons (or at least one dragon, Dreamfyre) they could have escaped on dragonback (or at least Rhaena could have). One assumes that the siege of Crakehall ended either after Maegor had taken KL and the Faith Militant was rallying forces to fight against him or after Lord Lyman had marshaled an army of Westermen to end it (one assume that he may not have been overly happy with the Faith Militant running amok in his lands). Anyhow, somehow Aegon and Rhaena ended as refugees at Casterly Rock in 42-3 AC until Aegon decided to challenge Maegor. Somehow he got Quicksilver but we don't really know how that happened - the dragon most likely was with Aenys on Dragonstone when he died.

I doubt the rebels would have been able to kill the dragons as they weren't chained up like at the Dragonpit. If Aegon and Rhaena had dragons they would have flown away, and Aegon and Rhaena were too valuable to let get away so I doubt the siege was abandoned. I wonder how Aegon got Quicksilver as well given either he would have had to go to Dragonstone and risk capture or Quicksilver would have flown to him before Aegon even mounted him. 

[Lord Varys]

Aegon's men were surrounded at the Gods Eye before Maegor killed Aegon, suggesting that Aegon was either a bad or ineffectual commander, or he had so few people that he could be surrounded rather easily. The Tullys sided with Maegor during that war. It may be that Aegon had mostly fools with him - freeriders, hedge knights, and the like. The only man of note we know died fighting for Aegon was Lord Alyn Tarbeck, the first husband of Jeyne Westerling. Knowing that Tullys sided with Maegor, and knowing that the Harroways of Harrenhal were firmly in Maegor's camp as well at this point, it seems that Aegon army was only made out of some Westermen since the Lannisters themselves kept out of the war.

 

I'm not saying that Aegon was as uncertain or as craven as Aenys, I'm just saying he may have resembled his father more than, say, the Conqueror or Maegor. And we actually don't know why Lord Lyman stayed at home. It is easily possible he did so because he felt Aegon had no chance to succeed - and Aegon may have stupid enough to believe that the Realm would rise for the true king (which it then did not).

 

We don't know how Aegon and Rhaena got out of Crakehall Castle, but this wasn't some campaign to intimidate them, the High Septon was trying to eradicate the Targaryen line there. From Aegon's progresses we know that showing off the dragons was part of them, and Aegon and Rhaena were sent out by Aenys to go on their first progress after their marriage. One assumes that they would have taken their dragons with them if they had some, and it is easily imaginable that they were chained or houses somewhere when the Faith Militant first attacked them. After all, they would spend the nights somewhere (the Conqueror was known to that on occasion in a common inn or with the smallfolk, suggesting that the dragons would have been close-by). And considering that they would have been rather small at this point in time I could easily see a bunch of determined Warrior's Sons or Poor Fellows slaying them if they surprised them. Or, who knows, perhaps they were separated from their riders and later tried to come to their help and were killed then?

 

One has to keep in mind that an attack on a royal progress means that the rebels must have had many men since a royal progress usually consists of many retainers, many of them lords, knights, and men-at-arms. Eventually, though, the siege of Crakehall Castle was either abandoned or broken by another force, presumably Lord Lyman's, since Aegon and Rhaena were guest in Casterly Rock not at Crakehall when Aegon began his campaign. 

 

My guess is that Dreamfyre was given to Rhaena by Maegor after their forced marriage if she was her second dragon. In the wake of Visenya's death Maegor only had only Balerion left, and one assumes he thought he had to change that disadvantage especially in the light of the the fact that Jaehaerys already had at least two dragons at that point, presumably (Vermithor and Silverwing, if Alyssa Velaryon was no dragonrider herself). Dreamfyre would have been big enough that she could ride her, but of course way to small to pose a danger to Balerion - unlike Vhagar, who most likely remained without a rider because Maegor wanted it that way.

 

Aegon was born long before the death of the Conqueror, suggesting that he would have been given a dragon just as Aenys was. Maegor most likely never got one because either Visenya didn't give him a hatchling (wanting that he eventually claim either Balerion or her own Vhagar) or there was no hatchling around the time he was born. If the next hatchling only was born when he was already 5-6 or so, he may already have had set his mind that he wouldn't take one of those dragons. Back then the Targaryens did not get any eggs, they were giving living hatchlings like Aenys was. If Aegon had wanted Balerion or Vhagar he could actually have claimed Balerion after his grandfather's death considering that he was with him on Dragonstone when Aegon I died. But we know nothing about such a scenario.

 

Another possibility is that someone brought Quicksilver to Prince Aegon in the West - say, by ship. But I admit that this would be a strange scenario. Perhaps if Prince Viserys was a dragonrider he could have brought Quicksilver to his brother like Daemon later directs a riderless Vhagar back over the Narrow Sea?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Anyway, it's rather likely that Maegor didn't usurp anything but was the lawful heir according to Targaryen/Valyrian law. That's actually quite common, the senior living member of the family inheriting, not the oldest son.

 

Maegor was Prince of Dragonstone, the heir to Aenys, before 41 AC.

Nobody from the Targaryen family protested in the slightest against Maegor's ascension for more than a year. Nor had Aegon much backup.

Furthermore, Maegor honored his cousins, instead of treating them as rival claimants with a better claim. He named them his heirs even.

Only in connection to Visenya's death (presumed murder?), the theft of Dark Sister and the quite obvious treason Alyssa committed therein did the relationship sour.

[Lion of the West]

Anyway, it's rather likely that Maegor didn't usurp anything but was the lawful heir according to Targaryen/Valyrian law. That's actually quite common, the senior living member of the family inheriting, not the oldest son.

 

Maegor was Prince of Dragonstone, the heir to Aenys, before 41 AC.

Nobody from the Targaryen family protested in the slightest against Maegor's ascension for more than a year. Nor had Aegon much backup.

Furthermore, Maegor honored his cousins, instead of treating them as rival claimants with a better claim. He named them his heirs even.

Only in connection to Visenya's death (presumed murder?), the theft of Dark Sister and the quite obvious treason Alyssa committed therein did the relationship sour.

 

Could be but given how far the Targaryens had gone to Andalize themselves with the Faith, knighthood, feudalism etc. I don't see why it would be a stretch for them to have adopted Westerosi inheritance traditions as well.

 

The reasons you next make are not much based on right but on realpolitik. Just because they didn't dare to protest against Maegor the Cruel it wasn't per necessity because they were agreeing with him. I find it more likely they kept silence from fear. In regards to Maegor wanting to win them over its a mark of sympathy that he wanted to get his House to his side, but I don't see why it would mean he was or wasn't a usurper.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

Could be but given how far the Targaryens had gone to Andalize themselves with the Faith, knighthood, feudalism etc. I don't see why it would be a stretch for them to have adopted Westerosi inheritance traditions as well.

Right with multiple wives and incest? Both in this very generation.

 

The reasons you next make are not much based on right but on realpolitik. Just because they didn't dare to protest against Maegor the Cruel it wasn't per necessity because they were agreeing with him. I find it more likely they kept silence from fear. In regards to Maegor wanting to win them over its a mark of sympathy that he wanted to get his House to his side, but I don't see why it would mean he was or wasn't a usurper.

What about Maegor being Prince of Dragonstone?

 

One or two arguments could be explained away, but taken altogether Maegor seems to be the rightful heir.

[Lion of the West]

 

 

Could be but given how far the Targaryens had gone to Andalize themselves with the Faith, knighthood, feudalism etc. I don't see why it would be a stretch for them to have adopted Westerosi inheritance traditions as well.

Right with multiple wives and incest? Both in this very generation.

 

The reasons you next make are not much based on right but on realpolitik. Just because they didn't dare to protest against Maegor the Cruel it wasn't per necessity because they were agreeing with him. I find it more likely they kept silence from fear. In regards to Maegor wanting to win them over its a mark of sympathy that he wanted to get his House to his side, but I don't see why it would mean he was or wasn't a usurper.

What about Maegor being Prince of Dragonstone?

 

One or two arguments could be explained away, but taken altogether Maegor seems to be the rightful heir.

 

 

True enough that they kept parts of Valyrian culture with them, but given that they werer also looking so much at Andal culture I don't find it a stretch to see laws ditched or reinterpreted.

 

About Maegor getting Dragonstone I think its on the same level as Maekar getting Summerhall. The Targaryens only held so much land and their father didn't want to his son to enn landless?

 

Taken together I don't agree that Maegor was the rightful heir.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

True enough that they kept parts of Valyrian culture with them, but given that they werer also looking so much at Andal culture I don't find it a stretch to see laws ditched or reinterpreted.

The laws they never kept for pretty much 150 years?

Aegon I => Aenys I wasn't legal because bigamy, Aenys as son of the second wife was a bastard.

Aenys I => Maegor is the issue at hand.

Maegor => Jaeharys I wasn't legal because Aegon 1.5 had living children.

Jaehaerys I => Baelon the Brave wasn't legal because Rhaenys was alive.

Jaehaerys I => Viserys I neither because of Laenor.

Viserys I => Aegon II was the Dance of Dragons.

Aegon II => Aegon III wasn't legal because of Jaehaera

Aegon III => Daeron I was the very first legal inheritance accordng to Andal culture. 157 years after the Conquest.

 

About Maegor getting Dragonstone I think its on the same level as Maekar getting Summerhall. The Targaryens only held so much land and their father didn't want to his son to enn landless?

Dragonstone has always been linked to the Crown Prince.

 

Taken together I don't agree that Maegor was the rightful heir.

It's certainly a topic for discussion, not a foregone conclusion. But neither is the other way round.

[Fire Eater]

Aegon's men were surrounded at the Gods Eye before Maegor killed Aegon, suggesting that Aegon was either a bad or ineffectual commander, or he had so few people that he could be surrounded rather easily. The Tullys sided with Maegor during that war. It may be that Aegon had mostly fools with him - freeriders, hedge knights, and the like. The only man of note we know died fighting for Aegon was Lord Alyn Tarbeck, the first husband of Jeyne Westerling. Knowing that Tullys sided with Maegor, and knowing that the Harroways of Harrenhal were firmly in Maegor's camp as well at this point, it seems that Aegon army was only made out of some Westermen since the Lannisters themselves kept out of the war.

 

I'm not saying that Aegon was as uncertain or as craven as Aenys, I'm just saying he may have resembled his father more than, say, the Conqueror or Maegor. And we actually don't know why Lord Lyman stayed at home. It is easily possible he did so because he felt Aegon had no chance to succeed - and Aegon may have stupid enough to believe that the Realm would rise for the true king (which it then did not).

 

We don't know how Aegon and Rhaena got out of Crakehall Castle, but this wasn't some campaign to intimidate them, the High Septon was trying to eradicate the Targaryen line there. From Aegon's progresses we know that showing off the dragons was part of them, and Aegon and Rhaena were sent out by Aenys to go on their first progress after their marriage. One assumes that they would have taken their dragons with them if they had some, and it is easily imaginable that they were chained or houses somewhere when the Faith Militant first attacked them. After all, they would spend the nights somewhere (the Conqueror was known to that on occasion in a common inn or with the smallfolk, suggesting that the dragons would have been close-by). And considering that they would have been rather small at this point in time I could easily see a bunch of determined Warrior's Sons or Poor Fellows slaying them if they surprised them. Or, who knows, perhaps they were separated from their riders and later tried to come to their help and were killed then?

 

By that logic, are the Northmen fighting with Stannis fools? Does one have to be a fool to oppose Maegor's harsh, brutal rule? Eventually, the whole realm went to war against him under Jaehaerys, and I don't think you considered them fools. If Aegon didn't challenge Maegor he would have risked looking weak, and hurting his chances of succeeding even more.  

 

No dragon is ever recorded as having been chained up when visiting another castle. Name to me one in tPatQ and WoIaF that was when they visited other places. If Aegon had a dragon before Quicksilver it would have been mentioned. There is nothing that could have prevented the dragons from flying straight to their riders at Crakehall in that instance. It also would have been mentioned if they both had their dragons killed. 

 

 

One has to keep in mind that an attack on a royal progress means that the rebels must have had many men since a royal progress usually consists of many retainers, many of them lords, knights, and men-at-arms. Eventually, though, the siege of Crakehall Castle was either abandoned or broken by another force, presumably Lord Lyman's, since Aegon and Rhaena were guest in Casterly Rock not at Crakehall when Aegon began his campaign. 

 

My guess is that Dreamfyre was given to Rhaena by Maegor after their forced marriage if she was her second dragon. In the wake of Visenya's death Maegor only had only Balerion left, and one assumes he thought he had to change that disadvantage especially in the light of the the fact that Jaehaerys already had at least two dragons at that point, presumably (Vermithor and Silverwing, if Alyssa Velaryon was no dragonrider herself). Dreamfyre would have been big enough that she could ride her, but of course way to small to pose a danger to Balerion - unlike Vhagar, who most likely remained without a rider because Maegor wanted it that way.

 

Aegon was born long before the death of the Conqueror, suggesting that he would have been given a dragon just as Aenys was. Maegor most likely never got one because either Visenya didn't give him a hatchling (wanting that he eventually claim either Balerion or her own Vhagar) or there was no hatchling around the time he was born. If the next hatchling only was born when he was already 5-6 or so, he may already have had set his mind that he wouldn't take one of those dragons. Back then the Targaryens did not get any eggs, they were giving living hatchlings like Aenys was. If Aegon had wanted Balerion or Vhagar he could actually have claimed Balerion after his grandfather's death considering that he was with him on Dragonstone when Aegon I died. But we know nothing about such a scenario.

 

Another possibility is that someone brought Quicksilver to Prince Aegon in the West - say, by ship. But I admit that this would be a strange scenario. Perhaps if Prince Viserys was a dragonrider he could have brought Quicksilver to his brother like Daemon later directs a riderless Vhagar back over the Narrow Sea?

Lord Lyman could have broken the siege, true. That is a possibility. 

 

Maegor suffered little threat from Vermithor and Silverwing given likely both together were still too small to take on Balerion. Also, I guess you are right to point out that we don't know when Rhaena got Dreamfyre. 

 

The same could be said for Aegon in Maegor's case. Maegor likely moved before Aegon who was still in mourning over his grandfather. We don't have a lot of info on the scenario true. 

 

The problem with the latter is Viserys was Maegor's squire and his absence would have been noted. He wouldn't be able to return to Maegor after that. 

[Bironic]

The faith militant uprising might have driven the Targs out of Westeros, or the Targs would have given up on incest as part of a compromise with the Faith.

[Lord Varys]

BBE,

 

there is no reason to believe the Targaryens on Dragonstone didn't follow primogeniture. The Lordship went from Aenar to Gaemon and Daenys, not to one of Aenar's brothers. We know that Aenar had brothers since his siblings are mentioned. If those had only been sisters it would have read sisters. Besides, the succession usually went to the next generation.

 

Aegon may not have been Prince of Dragonstone prior to 41 AC but he was always Aenys' heir. Back then the title 'Prince of Dragonstone' wasn't the title of the Heir Apparent. At least that's how it seems, Ran has said that Aenys was indeed Prince of Dragonstone prior to his ascension, but that doesn't mean that Maegor was given that title as Aenys' heir. Aenys may just have been overly generous granting his brother the ancestral seat of House Targaryen.

 

As far as I know Maegor only named his grand-niece Aerea his heir, never a son of Aenys. He disinherited Jaehaerys, killed Aegon, and we don't know whether Viserys was ever considered to be his heir.

 

But it is quite clear that Maegor was King of Westeros after he had usurped the throne, just as Richard III was.

 

Fire Eater,

 

we don't know anything about Prince Aegon. And we don't know why anyone did follow him besides from the fact that he had the better claim and was his father's chosen heir. Perhaps that was all. Being a dragonrider doesn't make you a warrior, a leader, or a charismatic guy. Aegon wasn't Jaehaerys. The Realm rose against Maegor and for Jaehaerys, but the lords sat on their asses when Aegon rebelled. Perhaps Aegon was a fool to challenge his uncle, perhaps the lords realized that the fool had no chance, or perhaps they just thought he had no chance and stayed out of it for that reason. That was obviously the decision of Lord Lyman. The man clearly didn't like Maegor or else he would have handed Aegon and Rhaena over to him - but his sympathy for them didn't motivate him to take up their cause.

 

You should really reread your stuff. Vhagar and Arrax are chained in the yard of Storm's End, Syrax is chained in the yard of the Red Keep, Vhagar is chained/stabled at High Tide on Driftmark, and so on. There are also incidents were royal dragons aren't chained (Silverwing, Vermithor, and Tessarion at Tumbleton, for instance) but one assumes that the Targaryens did chain their dragons when they lodged at a castle or an inn to reduce the chances of the dragons killing or mutilating spectators.

 

There is no reason to assume that it would have been mentioned if Aegon had had a dragon prior to Quicksilver. Ran and Linda had to cut a lot of stuff. Considering that we have no information at all on Aegon and Rhaena's youth or what happened during their progress (i.e. how it came to be that they were besieged at Crakehall) it wouldn't be surprising if we lack crucial information. Depending on how young the dragons were at that point they may even have been killed if they were free. Say, if it was a huge host of determined zealots that attacked Aegon and Rhaena's progress, and they barely escaped with their lives into the castle.

 

My idea that Maegor may have given Dreamfyre to Rhaena after their marriage isn't all that connected to dragon battles and stuff, but symbolism. One assumes that Alyssa/Jaehaerys had two dragons at least (Vermithor & Silverwing) while Maegor was down to one after his mother's death. By giving his new wife a dragon he would have sent a message that he was still controlling things (to a degree).

 

Actually, Maegor was giving the eulogy during the Conqueror's funeral, so Aegon would have had time to claim Balerion if he had wanted to. But I really don't think he wasn't given a dragon. Maegor had a severe prestige problem due to the fact that he was no dragonrider for the first 25 years of his life. Aegon build up Aenys as his heir, and part of that was making him a dragonrider like his father was. And Aenys and Aegon later began building up Prince Aegon as Aenys' heir which means we should assume he was given a dragon, too. Another possibility would be that Aegon's tried died of some other causes prior to Aenys' death.

 

I've thought about the Viserys problem. We only know that he was Maegor's squire when he was killed in the aftermath of Visenya's death. He may have been with Aegon at the Gods Eye, though, and only been captured thereafter. If Viserys wasn't Vermithor's first rider he may have a dragon, too, a dragon that was killed by Balerion in the aftermath of Aegon's defeat.

[Fire Eater]

 

Fire Eater,

 

we don't know anything about Prince Aegon. And we don't know why anyone did follow him besides from the fact that he had the better claim and was his father's chosen heir. Perhaps that was all. Being a dragonrider doesn't make you a warrior, a leader, or a charismatic guy. Aegon wasn't Jaehaerys. The Realm rose against Maegor and for Jaehaerys, but the lords sat on their asses when Aegon rebelled. Perhaps Aegon was a fool to challenge his uncle, perhaps the lords realized that the fool had no chance, or perhaps they just thought he had no chance and stayed out of it for that reason. That was obviously the decision of Lord Lyman. The man clearly didn't like Maegor or else he would have handed Aegon and Rhaena over to him - but his sympathy for them didn't motivate him to take up their cause.

 

You should really reread your stuff. Vhagar and Arrax are chained in the yard of Storm's End, Syrax is chained in the yard of the Red Keep, Vhagar is chained/stabled at High Tide on Driftmark, and so on. There are also incidents were royal dragons aren't chained (Silverwing, Vermithor, and Tessarion at Tumbleton, for instance) but one assumes that the Targaryens did chain their dragons when they lodged at a castle or an inn to reduce the chances of the dragons killing or mutilating spectators.

 

There is no reason to assume that it would have been mentioned if Aegon had had a dragon prior to Quicksilver. Ran and Linda had to cut a lot of stuff. Considering that we have no information at all on Aegon and Rhaena's youth or what happened during their progress (i.e. how it came to be that they were besieged at Crakehall) it wouldn't be surprising if we lack crucial information. Depending on how young the dragons were at that point they may even have been killed if they were free. Say, if it was a huge host of determined zealots that attacked Aegon and Rhaena's progress, and they barely escaped with their lives into the castle.

Lords did join with Aegon, but not enough to make a difference. Aegon need some charisma to win followers, and he managed to marshal an army. Who knows, maybe he managed to make a deal with the Faith. Unlike, Maegor, Aegon could at least be reasoned with. 

 

There is no mention of Vhagar and Arrax being chained at SE, especially since SE had no known dragonriders as residents, and likely didn't have the chains the right size for the dragons. I said when visiting other castles, the RK and High Tide had dragonstables as they were the residences of dragonriders and their respective mounts. 

 

I think it would have been mentioned, and they likely rode on horseback. They wouldn't have been chained as Crakehall never had dragonriders as residents, and the dragons wouldn't have been chained. 

 

 

My idea that Maegor may have given Dreamfyre to Rhaena after their marriage isn't all that connected to dragon battles and stuff, but symbolism. One assumes that Alyssa/Jaehaerys had two dragons at least (Vermithor & Silverwing) while Maegor was down to one after his mother's death. By giving his new wife a dragon he would have sent a message that he was still controlling things (to a degree).

 

Actually, Maegor was giving the eulogy during the Conqueror's funeral, so Aegon would have had time to claim Balerion if he had wanted to. But I really don't think he wasn't given a dragon. Maegor had a severe prestige problem due to the fact that he was no dragonrider for the first 25 years of his life. Aegon build up Aenys as his heir, and part of that was making him a dragonrider like his father was. And Aenys and Aegon later began building up Prince Aegon as Aenys' heir which means we should assume he was given a dragon, too. Another possibility would be that Aegon's tried died of some other causes prior to Aenys' death.

 

I've thought about the Viserys problem. We only know that he was Maegor's squire when he was killed in the aftermath of Visenya's death. He may have been with Aegon at the Gods Eye, though, and only been captured thereafter. If Viserys wasn't Vermithor's first rider he may have a dragon, too, a dragon that was killed by Balerion in the aftermath of Aegon's defeat.

There is still the potential issue of Maegor having killed Rhaena's brother-husband, Aegon. I think he knew her loyalty was dubious. 

 

It could have been possible that he was given a dragon egg that didn't hatch or his hatchling died young. 

 

If Viserys's dragon had been killed, he no doubt would have been killed with it. 

[Lion of the West]

 

 

True enough that they kept parts of Valyrian culture with them, but given that they werer also looking so much at Andal culture I don't find it a stretch to see laws ditched or reinterpreted.

The laws they never kept for pretty much 150 years?

Aegon I => Aenys I wasn't legal because bigamy, Aenys as son of the second wife was a bastard.

Aenys I => Maegor is the issue at hand.

Maegor => Jaeharys I wasn't legal because Aegon 1.5 had living children.

Jaehaerys I => Baelon the Brave wasn't legal because Rhaenys was alive.

Jaehaerys I => Viserys I neither because of Laenor.

Viserys I => Aegon II was the Dance of Dragons.

Aegon II => Aegon III wasn't legal because of Jaehaera

Aegon III => Daeron I was the very first legal inheritance accordng to Andal culture. 157 years after the Conquest.

 

About Maegor getting Dragonstone I think its on the same level as Maekar getting Summerhall. The Targaryens only held so much land and their father didn't want to his son to enn landless?

Dragonstone has always been linked to the Crown Prince.

 

Taken together I don't agree that Maegor was the rightful heir.

It's certainly a topic for discussion, not a foregone conclusion. But neither is the other way round.

 

 

1. Eh, you could say that but I say otherwise and I'm seeing it this way, in that the Targaryens were not less or more successful in keeping these laws than pretty much any other royal House. That men with soldiers at their backs disregard the law to violently enforce their own will is rather "normal" in Westeros and has happened time and again and so can't be used as a reason that the laws are not there, only that they are fucked over. In regards to the Great Council Jaehaerys found an innovative way to screw the laws of inheritance. So yes I see that power politics screws the laws but I don't see any normal inheritance where Andal laws are not in effects. And I personally don't count it to be 157 years before a normal Andal succession. In that period you've got both Aenys (firsborn son) and Aegon (firstborn son) inheriting after their fathers. Even if we would take away that Aenys was not Andally ok, then Aegon II still remains as he was the firstborn son of the king and thus the heir by Andal traditions. I have no idea why you didn't count him though.

 

2. "Always"? The Targaryens had held Westeros for under half a century so I think its way to early to talk about "always". I fear you may be reading history backwards.

 

3. I think that I agree.

[Lord Varys]

Fire Eater,

 

Alyn Tarbeck aside, we don't know that any lords joined Prince Aegon. We know he had an army, but this could have been a pitiful host made mostly by second sons and freeriders. The prospect of winning gold and glory may be enough to convince some people to join a man whose cause is lost. Especially if the guy has a dragon - which Aegon eventually had. And again, we don't know how charismatic or competent Prince Aegon was. Stannis isn't charismatic either, yet he, too, has rallied some Northmen to his cause.

 

I'm not sure if it is mentioned whether Vhagar or Arrax were chained in SE, but they were at least taken care of there. If Vhagar had been unbound/unchained one actually wonders why she didn't attack Arrax and Luke when they were approaching. But there was no dragon stable in the Red Keep. Syrax's stable was apparently improvised, and one assumes that the greater castles of Westeros which could expect a visit from a dragonrider in those days had made arrangements to house them.

 

If Princess Rhaena already had Dreamfyre by the time of the progress, she would have taken her with her on the progress. That was part of the point of those royal progresses - to show off the Targaryen splendor and dragons. If Maegor didn't think he could trust or at least control Rhaena after their marriage it would be strange if he actually allowed her to keep Dreamfyre/did not kill her. We know how paranoid he was at that point, but one guesses he felt that he needed her or at least her daughters in lack of an heir of his body, or else he would not have married Rhaena in the first place.

 

As to Viserys: Not necessarily. It is also possible Maegor put down Viserys' dragon or separated them once he made him his squire. But we don't know whether Viserys remained on Dragonstone after Aenys' death or if he was only made a hostage by Maegor after the Gods Eye incident - regardless whether he was with Aegon or not. It seems as if Visenys/Maegor were at first not that keen to fight a Targaryen civil war while they were taking on the Faith, and thus there is a good chance that Maegor wanted to show mercy to his nephew and nieces after the Gods Eye. After all, Alyssa, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne were not harmed, and Viserys was made the king's squire. My guess is that Maegor didn't even want to kill Rhaena and Aegon prior to Aegon's rebellion but rather get them into his power to prevent them from rebelling.

 

Aegon making a deal with the Faith is very unlikely. The High Septon was leading a crusade to eradicate House Targaryen. That only changed after his death when the new High Septon actually sort of submitted to Maegor - at least officially - and tried to disband the Faith Militant. Jaehaerys eventually became a figurehead of the anti-Maegor movement but the Faith Militant wasn't a strong part of that, and it is unclear whether any members of the military orders actually ever declared for him. The only Faith Militant guys we know of to fight at the end of Maegor's reign are Joffrey Doggett and Septon Moon leading the Poor Fellows against him in 48 AC with Riverrun joining them - this doesn't mean, though, that they did this originally in the name of Jaehaerys I (although the Tullys later proclaimed for him).

 

LionoftheWest,

 

well, it would be your turn to prove that there were fixed Andal laws of succession prior to Jaehaerys' unifying the Realm, and that those laws bound the Iron Throne as well. While that is not proven such laws simply do not exist. They could have made up the succession on a case-by-case basis, which they actually did.