ser plant Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Alleras (sarella sand) is shooting apples with her bow while some acolytes and novices of the citadel have a drink, before each apple is thrown the conversation the group are having turns back to the stories from around the world of dany’s dragons, the way the conversation segues back to the dragons each time an apple is about to be thrown indicates there could be a connection. Now none of the dragons match the physical description of the apples at any point before or after the prologue and so we turn to the next best thing a family highly associated dragons who even call themselves dragons, there are a few family members remaining in the world at this point 2 confirmed and 1 speculative with another speculative arising in the next book but along the same timeline. The first apple is withered and picked off the ground that is cored. just before it is thrown "The last dragon in westeros was the last dragon", said arwen doggedly "that is well known" they are talking about the last fire breathing dragon in westeros though, but due to targaren's love of calling themselves dragons it isnt a massive leap to the last targ in westeros, all this matches Aemon Targaryen who is old and wrinkled and he later dies in affc of a chill that cuts to the core of him. he is also the last living targaryen in westeros. The placement of the apple is important as it signifies Aemon’s low birth in terms of inheritance within the Targaryen family being a 3rd son. The second apple is wormy, that is picked off the ground and is sliced in two. again just before the 2nd apple is thrown "All speak of dragons and a beautiful queen." this is in reference to the stories coming into old town about danyaerys. This apple signifies dany the worminess could imply she is a bad apple and so will turn more antagonistic as the story progresses, with the apple slicing in two can also shows how she is extremely divisive, you either love her (mhysa) or hate her (sons of the harpy). The apple being picked off the ground also signifies her low inheritance right at the time of her birth (5th in line I think?) The 3rd and final apple is picked off the tree and missed just before the 3rd apple is thrown "one last apple, promised alleras "and i will tell you what i suspect about these dragons" this one is very much a mystery as to who it could represent. This apple can signify both Aegon and Jon who are both still speculative targs, the fact the apple is missed, shows how they were missed by those wishing to end the targaryens line, with Aegon supposedly replaced and spirited away, while Jon was brought up as Ned’s own bastard. The placement of the apple on the tree signifies their greater claim of inheritance compared to the other two apples, with Aegon being Rhaegar’s uncontested heir, while Jon being Rhaegar’s heir also stands true as the kingsguard protected Jon in the tower of joy to their deaths, instead of Viserys, showing Jon was the true heir and king. At this point in the story it must be added Aegon has not been introduced and so this theory foreshadows his coming in many ways. * just to add the apples themselves are fairly irrelevant its not an apple code thing for this passage they could well be replaced by oranges, turnips or moonboy for all i know and it would still have the same effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I can see no evidence backing any of this. With all due respect maybe it should have stayed on Reddit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arataniello Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Sometimes an apple is just an apple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutch Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I get it now. The Fossoway's will rule Westeros at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Apples are, iicr, a symbol of the feminine. In this case, Sarella, who is posing as a guy, shoots at them with an arrow, a very masculine figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 How you like DEM apples? Apples are, iicr, a symbol of the feminine. In this case, Sarella, who is posing as a guy, shoots at them with an arrow, a very masculine figure. The scene was a metaphor for sex? Sometimes an apple is just an apple. Not only this, but sometimes I am unsure of the value of seeking out symbolism in an novel. It seems very subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arataniello Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 All the apples are being warged by Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I thought the point of the scene was that Alleras hated those apples. Kind of like, "He hates these apples. Stay away from the apples everybody!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser plant Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 i know youse all think its crackpot, but i will point out again there is something weird about the passage in the way it elevates a complete non event as well as describing the position and physical state of the apples as well as all 3's fate and the way the conversation segues each time just before the apple is thrown to the dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 The scene was a metaphor for sex? Aren't all scenes metaphors for sex? Pffff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Aren't all scenes metaphors for sex? Pffff Mi-likes the way thou dost think. But I am curious and desire specifics. If I were to suggestively tongue the calex lobe of an apple, while eating in the cafeteria and making eye-contact with a female co-worker, am I suggesting rimming or cunningulus? Because I would hate to send the wrong message. Clarity it key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 i know youse all think its crackpot, but i will point out again there is something weird about the passage in the way it elevates a complete non event as well as describing the position and physical state of the apples as well as all 3's fate and the way the conversation segues each time just before the apple is thrown to the dragons Even if there's some meaning to the scene there's nothing pointing to Aemon, Dany, or Jon. That's the part that's baseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Aren't all scenes metaphors for sex? Pffff If they aren't they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 If they aren't they should be. They will. I'll make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I get it now. The Fossoway's will rule Westeros at the end. Red apple or green apple? Or will a third, yellow apple Fossoway house arise. i know youse all think its crackpot, but i will point out again there is something weird about the passage in the way it elevates a complete non event as well as describing the position and physical state of the apples as well as all 3's fate and the way the conversation segues each time just before the apple is thrown to the dragons Points about the passage and language sure. But you're applying your own ideas to the meanings rather than looking for text that would indicate the meaning. Basically it sounds like this is what you want the scene to mean. And really why even put Aemon in the mix? You could have gone with Aegon (cored, thus dead, and the one we see is a fake), Dany or Jon for the second, and the remaining one for the third. Or you could have used the three Stark boys. Or the three heads of the dragon (Tyrion can be the wormy one, maybe as he's half-corrupt). Or the three fake Baratheon kids. Or the three Baratheon brothers. The possibilities are many. There's not really anything you've brought in from the text to support the outcome you suggest. But I think you may have a point about that passage, so I suggest you do a reread with that in mind, and see what comes up to you...keeping an open mind as to who the apples might represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser plant Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 ok i have some quotes which back up at least the first 2 points "the last dragon in westeros was the last dragon" said arwen doggedly "that is well known" this is said directly before the withered apple is thrown, we know aemon is still alive and so technically he is the last dragon in westeros "all speak of dragons, and a beautiful young queen" again this is said directly before the apple is thrown "one last apple" promised alleras "and i will tell you what i suspect about these dragons" again just before the apple is thrown again not conclusive but the last one is very much a mystery *really should have looked for these quotes when writing it out originally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutch Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Red apple or green apple? Or will a third, yellow apple Fossoway house arise. Points about the passage and language sure. But you're applying your own ideas to the meanings rather than looking for text that would indicate the meaning. Basically it sounds like this is what you want the scene to mean. And really why even put Aemon in the mix? You could have gone with Aegon (cored, thus dead, and the one we see is a fake), Dany or Jon for the second, and the remaining one for the third. Or you could have used the three Stark boys. Or the three heads of the dragon (Tyrion can be the wormy one, maybe as he's half-corrupt). Or the three fake Baratheon kids. Or the three Baratheon brothers. The possibilities are many. There's not really anything you've brought in from the text to support the outcome you suggest. But I think you may have a point about that passage, so I suggest you do a reread with that in mind, and see what comes up to you...keeping an open mind as to who the apples might represent. I like the idea of the yellow apple. Comprised entirely of secret Targ/Fossoway/greenseers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 ok i have some quotes which back up at least the first 2 points this is said directly before the withered apple is thrown, we know aemon is still alive and so technically he is the last dragon in westeros again this is said directly before the apple is thrown again just before the apple is thrown again not conclusive but the last one is very much a mystery *really should have looked for these quotes when writing it out originally The last dragon they are referring to is the last actual dragon though. And even if it's a hint at Targs, the Targ who was referred to as the "last dragon" was Rhaegar. Still, Rhaegar actually works with your initial post, as he's even deader than Aemon. The problem with your second apple being Dany is that aside from the quotes you just put in (good work on those, by the way) you're making assumptions about how the apple symbolizes her which the author may not share. Whether she's a "bad apple" or will turn into one is by no means certain. The worminess could refer to the fact that she's been surrounded by rotten people, and corruption. She's not 5th in line for the throne. In fact, it might even be argued that legally the throne should be hers--as far as we know she and her descendants were never barred from succession as Viserys and his issue were. But...change that to the fact that she's starting out low in the world--an exiled former royal, born after her father lost his throne, forced to live on the charity of others and put up with some awful circumstances--and it's a more even statement. Yes the third apple is open to interpretation, but it does seem to imply that whoever the third apple represents is going to be important. Question: have you considered that these apples might actually be referring to the prophecy of The Dragon that was Promised? Rhaegar and Aemon both thought Rhaegar was TDtwP. Then Aemon thought Daenerys was. But if it's Jon (or even Aegon), then your apples fit really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I like the idea of the yellow apple. Comprised entirely of secret Targ/Fossoway/greenseers. With jaundice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser plant Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 the last dragon is a bit of a leap but not much i think, although rhaegar is called the last dragon, the repeated use of targaryens calling themselves dragons makes targaryens and dragons very interchangeable, also aemon fits the withered apple a lot better than rhaegar. (coupled with him being the last targaryen/dragon in westeros) i agree the worminess of the apple and how it splits in two is probably the bit im least sure about. (originally i had it as jon due to his death in adwd) at her time of birth i believe she was 5th in line to the throne rhaegar-aegon-rhaenys-viserys-dany (not sure if viserys comes before rhaenys?) that could work but then again it would need rhaegar to match the withered apple which i dont think fully fits the info we're given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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