WalkinDude Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Sorry if this has been talked about before, but as I'm sure many of you are as well, I'm a follower of Preston Jacobs and his videos. The latest set of videos has been about the Children of the Forrest and their connection to other works of Martin. I'm not able to nor would I attempt to explain the idea here, but the premise is that the COTF aren't the angelic and innocent people we're led to perceive them as. So we know that Guest Right is one of the most sacred traditions in the North and even all of Westeros. Fans and characters alike regard the Red Wedding as one of, if not the most heinous and treacherous act to have occurred thus far in the story. We're told by Bran of the story of the cook who broke guest right and was forced to live as a rat, eating his own children for all eternity. So to the point. Bloodraven arguably broke Guest Right when he invited Aenys Blackfyre to King's Landing under protection to participate in the Great Council, only to have him immediately captured and executed. We know that Bloodraven is now residing in the heart of a Weirwood tree with some connection to the Old Gods. If Guest Right is so sacred among the people of Westeros, but specifically the North and the followers of the Old Gods, why would we assume that Bloodraven is an ally? Why would the COTF, the primary worshipers and followers of the Old Gods, align themselves with someone who violated their most sacred laws? I think most agree that the Blackfyre story line will manifest itself again with (f)Aegon, but this is a huge red herring that the only character we've been shown thus far that is capable and aware of the nature of the Others is also in stark violation of one of the most important rules in the North. Should we assume that BR is the COTF's prisoner rather than their leader\ally? Should we assume that the original Master of Whispers is still manipulating the affairs of the 7 kingdoms? What reason do we have other than the fact that wights attempted to attack Bran as he entered the cave that BR isn't in concert with the Others? After all, Old Nan told us since the start of GoT that all crows are liars, and BR is not only a crow metaphorically (he took the black and a Raven is another name for a crow), but literally in that he appears to Bran as the 3 eyed crow. Something doesn't add up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I assume he simply did not break guest rights. In Catlyns POV of the red wedding, she does not think they are under guest rights until she eats and drinks, Davos thinks the same thing when he is on the Sisters. Simply being invited in seems to not be enough, you have to be offered bread and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scootaloo Stark Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I never got the impression that he's their "leader". It's like Jon with the wildlings. They work with him because they have a common enemy, and maybe they need him. Also, I'm not sure if the CotF know every part of Bloodraven's life. Maybe they don't know about the incident. Or they've forgiven him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 BR invited Aenys from Essos promising safe conduct, but he was arrested as soon as he entered KL. There's no evidence that the guest right ritual had been performed - which would have required Aenys being invited into the Red Keep and be presented food and drink. By the accounts that didn't occur. So, there's no evidence that BR broke guest right. On top of that, he was sentenced for the falsehood, and sent for the Wall, where he served for a long time before he disappeared. And it's quite possible he's not even a deserter, but still keeping to his vow to guard the realm of men, through the weirnet and the ravens - unorthodox, sure, but far from foul. Hell he even tries to advize the NW via Mormont's raven. Sure, BR may possibly have some sinister motives of his own and there might be sinister blood rituals involved. But wights still attempt to attack the cave. The dead wighted animals are piling up there. Meanwhile that giant wolf pack in RR attacks the likes of Freys and Bloody Mummers, but no Brotherhood. GoHH is strongly affiliated with wiernet and such, and she's helping the BwB too in certain ways. If it weren't for the 3EC it looks like Bran would have died in his coma. Note - Preston Jacobs is a name that makes people groan here. It's not much a reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Sorry if this has been talked about before, but as I'm sure many of you are as well, I'm a follower of Preston Jacobsgrrr.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 grrr.... Told ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkinDude Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 grrr.... I'm not saying the guy is right, but his theories are well evidenced (more so than 90% of the theories on the various forums) and interesting. If nothing else, they make you think which is all he intends to do. I don't buy that Dany is the secret child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scootaloo Stark Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Note - Preston Jacobs is a name that makes people groan here. It's not much a reference. Why? Should I check out his stuff or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysfan Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Bloodraven never broke Guest Right so any extension of Bloodraven theories from there are moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I'm not saying the guy is right, but his theories are well evidenced (more so than 90% of the theories on the various forums) and interesting. :lmao: Reminds me of what GRRM said recently at the convention, "NOT EVERY DETAIL IS A CLUE MOST OF YOUR THEORIES ARE ERRONEOUS THEY ARE JUST WORDS". Sure, there are lots of people who come with all sorts of theories, and then there are the gems who use textual evidence as well as context as well as logic, and come with beautiful stuff. Anyway, I just wanted to alert you that "No, most people here aren't in to Preston at all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 BR invited Aenys from Essos promising safe conduct, but he was arrested as soon as he entered KL. There's no evidence that the guest right ritual had been performed - which would have required Aenys being invited into the Red Keep and be presented food and drink. By the accounts that didn't occur. So, there's no evidence that BR broke guest right. On top of that, he was sentenced for the falsehood, and sent for the Wall, where he served for a long time before he disappeared. And it's quite possible he's not even a deserter, but still keeping to his vow to guard the realm of men, through the weirnet and the ravens - unorthodox, sure, but far from foul. Hell he even tries to advize the NW via Mormont's raven. Sure, BR may possibly have some sinister motives of his own and there might be sinister blood rituals involved. But wights still attempt to attack the cave. The dead wighted animals are piling up there. Meanwhile that giant wolf pack in RR attacks the likes of Freys and Bloody Mummers, but no Brotherhood. GoHH is strongly affiliated with wiernet and such, and she's helping the BwB too in certain ways. If it weren't for the 3EC it looks like Bran would have died in his coma. Note - Preston Jacobs is a name that makes people groan here. It's not much a reference. Frankly, I think that the absence of food or drink doesn't matter all that much. Even if the ceremony required it, it's quite clear that Bloodraven broke an oath he had given and we also know what people in-universe thought of his actions. It was seen as a treacherous crime, not an ingenious loophole, which kept him honorable. Bloodraven acted like a total swine, there's no denying it, whether the scenario perfectly fits a breaking of the guest or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Why? Should I check out his stuff or not? It can be entertaining sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Frankly, I think that the absence of food or drink doesn't matter all that much. Even if the ceremony required it, it's quite clear that Bloodraven broke an oath he had given and we also know what people in-universe thought of his actions. It was seen as a treacherous crime, not an ingenious loophole, which kept him honorable. Bloodraven acted like a total swine, there's no denying it, whether the scenario perfectly fits a breaking of the guest or not. Oh, I completely agree that BR was as utilitarian in that act as Tywin is. I'm not defending the act at all. Dishonorable, sure. Breaking guest right - nope. And he accepted the punishment for it without protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yes, BR is a very sinister dude and I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him. Without disentangling him from his throne. I'm not saying the guy is right, but his theories are well evidenced (more so than 90% of the theories on the various forums) and interesting. If nothing else, they make you think which is all he intends to do. I don't buy that Dany is the secret child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. :bang: Why? Should I check out his stuff or not? Only if you like well-produced videos spouting utter nonsense for profit, while stealing some poor artists' work to adorn it. He was a member of this board once, Skinchanging Sweetrobin. Only took up producing those videos after his threads had been disproven in the second post at the latest. Regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The CotF don't worship the Old Gods. They are the Old Gods. In my opinion, of course. As to breaking guest right and cannibalism, I there's a motif that goes back to the Rat Cook. Both the Freys and the Night's Watch deserters (and one could even make a case for Symon Silvertongue) ended up being eaten. I don't know if BR broke guest with Aenys, but he was a guest of Lord Butterwell and sabotaged the entire conspiracy from within. If that counts as breaking of guest right, then BR being karmically assigned the role of the Rat Cook (even though he may consume human flesh for different reasons) would be fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Frankly, I think that the absence of food or drink doesn't matter all that much. Even if the ceremony required it, it's quite clear that Bloodraven broke an oath he had given and we also know what people in-universe thought of his actions. That's a false dichotomy: "either he broke the guest right, or everything was A-OK, and since evidently not everything was A-OK...". In other words, apparently "breaking the guest right" is the only crime, the only immoral act there is. Yes, Bloodraven did break an oath and did commit a fucking cold-blooded murder (which is not A-OK), but that had little and less to do with laws of hospitality. Back to the original question, though: I see Bloodraven as a variety of the Token Evil Teammate. Allegiance-wise, he's on the side of Good, but perfectly willing to employ, let's call it, not entirely lawful good methods. (And yeah, don't refer to Preston Jacobs, nothing good can possibly come out of that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Why? Should I check out his stuff or not? I would it will certainly give you a perspective that you won't find in other places. He is really good at finding clues and connections, but his theories extend far into the tinfoil. I enjoy them, I can entertain the thoughts without accepting them. I guess that puts me in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternET Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Ok first point, no god , old or new, is true, even in asoiaf. If "guest right" was such a deathly sin in asoiaf, then Walder Frey should be targeted, which isn't, alas, the case. "Heroes" of our stories have committed comparable or worse crimes, Jaime : incest, oath breaker, kingslayer. Tyrion : Kinslayer. And you won't question that, for now, they are "well intentioned". Besides, as mentioned above, it wasn't "guest right", but "King's order" as he saw that as a way to end future "blackfyre" rebelions. (so is it "ill-intended" ?). Anyway, don't take Preston Jacob's "compilation" of theories too well, GRRM has already debunked the core of it, saying "it isn't science fiction, it is fantasy, it's magic man". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Sorry if this has been talked about before, but as I'm sure many of you are as well, I'm a follower of Preston Jacobs and his videos. The latest set of videos has been about the Children of the Forrest and their connection to other works of Martin. I'm not able to nor would I attempt to explain the idea here, but the premise is that the COTF aren't the angelic and innocent people we're led to perceive them as. So we know that Guest Right is one of the most sacred traditions in the North and even all of Westeros. Fans and characters alike regard the Red Wedding as one of, if not the most heinous and treacherous act to have occurred thus far in the story. We're told by Bran of the story of the cook who broke guest right and was forced to live as a rat, eating his own children for all eternity. So to the point. Bloodraven arguably broke Guest Right when he invited Aenys Blackfyre to King's Landing under protection to participate in the Great Council, only to have him immediately captured and executed. We know that Bloodraven is now residing in the heart of a Weirwood tree with some connection to the Old Gods. If Guest Right is so sacred among the people of Westeros, but specifically the North and the followers of the Old Gods, why would we assume that Bloodraven is an ally? Why would the COTF, the primary worshipers and followers of the Old Gods, align themselves with someone who violated their most sacred laws? I think most agree that the Blackfyre story line will manifest itself again with (f)Aegon, but this is a huge red herring that the only character we've been shown thus far that is capable and aware of the nature of the Others is also in stark violation of one of the most important rules in the North. Should we assume that BR is the COTF's prisoner rather than their leader\ally? Should we assume that the original Master of Whispers is still manipulating the affairs of the 7 kingdoms? What reason do we have other than the fact that wights attempted to attack Bran as he entered the cave that BR isn't in concert with the Others? After all, Old Nan told us since the start of GoT that all crows are liars, and BR is not only a crow metaphorically (he took the black and a Raven is another name for a crow), but literally in that he appears to Bran as the 3 eyed crow. Something doesn't add up here. Bloodraven did not break the guest right. Nothing suggests that he offered bread and salt to Aenys. Bloodraven broke his word of safe conduct which would hurt the credibility of the IT severely had Egg not condemned him to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Frankly, I think that the absence of food or drink doesn't matter all that much. Not to you perhaps but it MATTERS to the characters in-universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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