GRRM's Best Area of Writing

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Well he didn't last long...

 

Agreed with the consensus that his strengths and dialogue and characterisation, he is good with poetic language and imagery when he wants to be, but I'm glad those parts are more limited than in some series, since that can ruin the impact.

[Halkyon]

I think, his extraordinary strength lies within the details: How he efficiently characterizes so many people, how he builds up tension between those and - on another level - builds up tension by hinting at something unexpected without specifying it, how he intertwines the appearance of the world or rather reception of it by characters symbolically with the plot. You can see all this in the first few lines of AGOT Prologue:

 

"We should start back," Gared urged as the woods began to grow dark around them. "The wildlings are dead."

"Do the dead frighten you?" Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile.

Gared did not rise to the bait. He was an old man, past fifty, and he had seen the lordlings come and go. "Dead is dead," he said. "We have no business with the dead."

"Are they dead?" Royce asked softly. "What proof have we?"

"Will saw them," Gared said. "If he says they are dead, that's proof enough for me."

Will had known they would drag him into the quarrel sooner or later. He wished it had been later rather than sooner. "My mother told me that dead men sing no songs," he put in.

 

 

This is not just a "good dialogue". It is a dialogue deeply seated in a world of its own, introducing the reader into the main themes while building up tensions from the first sentence on. And, most important, it is easy to understand for every reader, although we don't know anything yet about the Nights Watch, the Middle-Age-World the scene is seated in, etc.

 

 

I have to reread some sex or battle scenes to make a proper opinion about those. Maybe, the difference between opinion "top notch" and "poorly written" lies in the fact, that GRRM rather concentrates on internal struggles and thus the fighting scenes become seemingly a bit slow sometimes (I think here especially of the first fight between Brienne and Tymeon etc. of the Brave Companions). And the sex scenes (I think of Cersei/Taena, Sam/Gilly, Jon/Ygritte, Asha/Qarl) also are instrumental to pointing out character traits, relations or internal struggles. So maybe the difference is between more sensual or passionate preferences ("poor") and favored rational struggles ("top notch")?

[Lateral]

GRRM has to be the best dialogue writer ever. whenever I see that a long dialogue is coming up I look forward to it, and it never disappoints.

He's actually quite average with battles, but I don't really care about them, so...

[HexMachina]

Characterisation & dialogue are easily his strongest points.

Catelyn's POV in the RW also demonstrates his ability to write brilliant horror/suspense. The whole chapter builds up the tension before the action begins. It's easily among the best written chapters he has done.

[Davrum]

Well put, although I tend to lump descriptions and world-building together for some reason, and have them second behind dialogue.

 

His characterizations don't always come off for me.

 

 

Honestly I disagree completely with the OP's listed strengths.

GRRM Strengths:

1. Dialogue- he has some amazing lines, every chapter has a handful of really great pieces of dialogue. Just high level.
2. Characterization- he gets his characters, he fleshes them out, he chews scenery with them.
3. Descriptions- beautiful vivid descriptive prose.
4. World Building- He balances constant growth with a sweet simplicity that makes it a digestible feast.

GRRM sometimes great, sometimes average, sometimes poor:

1. Pacing- ASOS is one of the best paced books I ever read. AGOT balances itself out real well. COK got clunky at times and was tremendous at others. ADWD really struggled pace wise. Basically his pacing is congruent with however much he is in control of the plot. You could tell ASOS was meticulously plotted out and laid out real well, same with AGOT, COK had parts where it felt like he was filling time, then the important stuff was great, Mereen really killed ADWD.
2. Transitions- sometimes the transitions from one POV to the next can be seamless, sometimes it starts off bad and takes you out of your groove.
3. Battles- Blackwater was great in parts, smaller affairs are done really well. You can tell he glosses over giant warlike battles a lot and he tends to struggle when he has to right them. So the smaller and more plot driven the better imo.

GRRM poor

1. Sex scenes- like big battles in the sense that you can tell he is just really trying to get by them. I think he really sometimes fumbles it up there.
2. Romance- with the major exception of Catelyn I just felt like he really isn't great at it. But that might just be my taste. Jon being confused about Ygritte just comes off pale to me, Jamie with Cersie seems more obsessive, and that's supposed to be one of the more passionate ones, etc. They kind of feel 2D. But Catelyn loving Ned and her children was amazing so idk.

[Rider on the Storm]

GRRM is the Man. The only thing that disturbs me about his writing is that he's often repetitive...and some details in his sex scenes are just gross.

 

His dialogues are some of the best I've ever read.

[Balerion the kitten]

ADWD really struggled pace wise. Basically his pacing is congruent with however much he is in control of the plot. You could tell ASOS was meticulously plotted out and laid out real well, same with AGOT, COK had parts where it felt like he was filling time, then the important stuff was great, Mereen really killed ADWD.

Isn't it a bit extreme to say Meereen killed ADWD? I actually quite enjoyed them, but even if you didn't there is still lots of other redeeming bits in ADWD (Reek, Bran were highlights for me).

[ConfusedCounselor]

Honestly I disagree completely with the OP's listed strengths.

GRRM Strengths:

1. Dialogue- he has some amazing lines, every chapter has a handful of really great pieces of dialogue. Just high level.
2. Characterization- he gets his characters, he fleshes them out, he chews scenery with them.
3. Descriptions- beautiful vivid descriptive prose.
4. World Building- He balances constant growth with a sweet simplicity that makes it a digestible feast.

GRRM sometimes great, sometimes average, sometimes poor:

1. Pacing- ASOS is one of the best paced books I ever read. AGOT balances itself out real well. COK got clunky at times and was tremendous at others. ADWD really struggled pace wise. Basically his pacing is congruent with however much he is in control of the plot. You could tell ASOS was meticulously plotted out and laid out real well, same with AGOT, COK had parts where it felt like he was filling time, then the important stuff was great, Mereen really killed ADWD.
2. Transitions- sometimes the transitions from one POV to the next can be seamless, sometimes it starts off bad and takes you out of your groove.
3. Battles- Blackwater was great in parts, smaller affairs are done really well. You can tell he glosses over giant warlike battles a lot and he tends to struggle when he has to right them. So the smaller and more plot driven the better imo.

GRRM poor

1. Sex scenes- like big battles in the sense that you can tell he is just really trying to get by them. I think he really sometimes fumbles it up there.
2. Romance- with the major exception of Catelyn I just felt like he really isn't great at it. But that might just be my taste. Jon being confused about Ygritte just comes off pale to me, Jamie with Cersie seems more obsessive, and that's supposed to be one of the more passionate ones, etc. They kind of feel 2D. But Catelyn loving Ned and her children was amazing so idk.

 

Nice write up. 

I can agree with the 'good' and 'average', except for the world building, but more on that later. 

I actually disagree with the poor.

 

1. I often think a lot of people have very strange expectations about sex scene's in the books. No, the vast majority of the sex scene aren't hot, at least to a lot of people. Why do you want them to be? This isn't a RomCom, porn, erotica or romance novel. Maybe TV shows, not just Game of Thrones but other too, have given us the expectation that sex scene's must be as appetizing as Natalie Dormer's tits or Littlefingers blond gigolo's buttcheeks.

-Samwell's first time isn't sexy to us, of course not. Even to Sam it is completely surreal. He never expected to have sex, he probably never pictured it. 'Fat pink mast' tells us that. This isn't a thought that goes through most guys head in a willing girl + erection scenario. But Sam isn't most guys and while he body reacts in normal ways, his mind isn't in the moment but remains somewhat observant and notes the absurdity (to him).

-The cave scene isn't about Jon being the best most original dirty talker ever, it is about how a young man reacts at an intimate moment with his first girl. He is lovedrunk, lustdrunk.

-Asha isn't a very romantic girl. Sex is a very carnal, primal thing for her and it makes sense to me that she, who is quite crude, would describe it in the terms she does.

-Theon isn't a very nice person. He doesn't like the captains daughter very much, nor is he that attracted to her. He uses her because he can, with very little regard for her. That doesn't result in a sex scene that is that appealing, no, but it does tell us something about Theon. 

 

2. Romance, same thing. Catelyn-Ned is perhaps the most "normal", healthy relationship in the entire series. Perhaps that is why you like it. But while I think their relationship is very well done, I do not want every relationship to be like that. Flawed relationships, relationships that start as one thing but become another are just as interesting. Jon's 'confusion', the growing affection for Ygritte versus his more constant feelings of duty isn't as ideal a relationship as you would want. It is interesting. And yes, of course Cercei and Jaime are obsessive. It is a weird and unhealthy mix of obsession, genuine love, narcissism, manipulation, loyalty and disloyalty, with a bit of forbidden on the side. It is any but 2D to me. Closer to 4D. :laugh:   

 

World building: I agree most of it is awesome. But that makes the exceptions stand out all the more:

Westeros feels real, like real people make real decisions on real belief systems that influence other real characters. Like some big clockwork things fit together and the depth, considering the scope, is amazing. There are some things that do not really add up, from a power/geography point of view, but that might be unavoidable in such a large body of work.

Essos however, does not feel real. People have suggested at various times this might be because we have few different POV's there and most of them are strangers (Westerosi all of them) that might not be super perceptive. However, even if that is the case, this has been going on for a long time. Mereen still feels like an enormous blob with three characters that interact with Dany. The city doesn't make sense to me.

[Nights Kings Queen]

2. Romance, same thing. Catelyn-Ned is perhaps the most "normal", healthy relationship in the entire series. Perhaps that is why you like it. But while I think their relationship is very well done, I do not want every relationship to be like that. Flawed relationships, relationships that start as one thing but become another. Jon's 'confusion', the growing affection for Ygritte versus his more constant feelings of duty isn't as ideal a relationship as you would want. It is interesting. And yes, of course Cercei and Jaime are obsessive. It is a weird and unhealthy mix of obsession, genuine love, narcissism, manipulation, loyalty and disloyalty, with a bit of forbidden on the side. It is any but 2D to me. Closer to 4D. :laugh:

I wouldn't be prepared to call Catelyn and Ned's relationship "healthy". They've never taken time to talk and work around they're feelings towards Jon and Ned's supposed affair.
That's been a major strain in their relationship, since they just ignore the problem. And Catelyn takes out her resentful feelings for Ned on to Jon. The source of the problem they refuse to talk about.
The most healthy and normal relationship for me would be, Brienne and Jaime (i ship almost every character with someone). They can both see each other's strengths and beauties. Cheesy, but I love them

[ConfusedCounselor]

I wouldn't be prepared to call Catelyn and Ned's relationship "healthy". They've never taken time to talk and work around they're feelings towards Jon and Ned's supposed affair.
That's been a major strain in their relationship, since they just ignore the problem. And Catelyn takes out her resentful feelings for Ned on to Jon. The source of the problem they refuse to talk about.
The most healthy and normal relationship for me would be, Brienne and Jaime (i ship almost every character with someone). They can both see each other's strengths and beauties. Cheesy, but I love them

Can't agree, I'm afraid. 

 

Don't know if initially leaving someone to a bunch of rapists and torturers is all that healthy to me. Even if he comes back.  :smug:

 

Anyway, entirely different kind of relationship. Ned-Cat actually is a relationship. They are together, they tackle life problems together, they share emotional and physical intimacy every day they are together. The challenge each other when they feel it necessary and comfort each other when they can. That they manage to do this despite "the stain" that was out of their control is actually admirable to me. Ned could never talk about it for obvious reasons and Cat has found a somewhat workable solution to forgive Ned and avoid Jon.

They did managed to get over the brother Brandon issue well enough, you know, an issue that is actually salvageable.

 

The Jaime-Brienne dynamic is interesting (and I find Brienne generally uninteresting), but that is more of a developing journey from antagonistic to liking and understanding. I can't agree that their liking of each other at the end resembles anything Ned-Cat have together.   

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree that the scenes you mentioned were poetic but I believe that that's point GRRM is trying to make.

If the story only had poetic moments then it would be like one of those songs that Sansa and Bran loved and we know

how well it ended for them.

 

 

Well, I'm not suggesting that ALL of the scenes should be like that. But now we're ending and closing stories, some positive allegories would be fit.

[Davrum]

World building: I agree most of it is awesome. But that makes the exceptions stand out all the more:

Westeros feels real, like real people make real decisions on real belief systems that influence other real characters. Like some big clockwork things fit together and the depth, considering the scope, is amazing. There are some things that do not really add up, from a power/geography point of view, but that might be unavoidable in such a large body of work.

Essos however, does not feel real. People have suggested at various times this might be because we have few different POV's there and most of them are strangers (Westerosi all of them) that might not be super perceptive. However, even if that is the case, this has been going on for a long time. Mereen still feels like an enormous blob with three characters that interact with Dany. The city doesn't make sense to me.

 

I hate to admit it, but you're bang on there. Essos has its moments, but overall reads as much more of a half-assed, half-fleshed out creation than Westeros.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I think his best chapters are in AFFC, as he describes the war-torn country as some of our POV characters traverse it. The Brienne and Nimble Dick storyline would be pretty boring without without the excellent descriptions of the countryside as they travel. And some of the Jaime chapters in that book are the best of the series.

[Winter Blues]

Whatever he's doing, he needs to keep it up. I don't typically read fantasy (aside form Tolkein and I was a huge fan of Harry Potter)--I read classic literature and books you would find on a "Top 100 novels of all time" list, but GRRM is an exception. I read the series at least once a year, every year. I recently did a reread of GoT and I never realized how well Catlyn's chapters were written. It almosts makes me like her as a character...almost. The Jon and Halfhand scenes were great, as well as Jon's first thre chapters in Dance...

 

His food descriptions are everything!

[Parizad]

One liners are his biggest forte. Also I really like it when he writes poetic passages and dreams

[Good Guy Garlan]

Pacing and structure
































Jk, it's his snarky one-liners

[Darkbringer]

The best writing for me are the dream sequences and the dialogue. TOJ obviously, but Jamies dreams as well. I have a special love for writers who can achieve characterisation and empathy for characters in a short couple of pages. These forums are a testament to how much he can capture our imaginations with such a vast array of characters.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I think it's a pretty strong consensus that while he is great at everything, his war and sex scene writing is top notch. I was wondering why people think he is so good at writing these sorts of scenes. What makes this his strongest area?

 

He is great at world building.  And describing food.  His prose I would call quite good.

 

He's quite awful in the pace of his writing...

[Ser Patroclo]

Jk, it's his snarky one-liners

 

words are wind?

it is known?

if I turn back I am lost?

reach for my fortune sack?

...

lol, jk

[Davrum]

<snip> These forums are a testament to how much he can capture our imaginations with such a vast array of characters.

 

This is a point worth making. We might rag on him once in a while, but, for me at least, it's done with love.