Bubonicon discussion (ALL BOOKS SPOILERS!)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I opened a thread about this in the book section, but certain area was grey. For those who don't know, there was a recent even featuring Martin in which AngryGoT Fan livetweeted a few of his comments about books and show. One of them spoke about how character who died in the show could survive the books.

 

So, butterbumps and I decided that, to avoid spoiling the show for those who haven't watched, we're discussing that bit of info here.

 

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BASH THE SHOW, D&D OR THE DECISIONS MADE. 

 

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPARE BOOKS AND SHOW

 

This is for book discussion about what is the future of those characters, after these information was given, in relation to their book participation.

 

The tweet in mention was deleted with the others, but AGF has recollected them in his site. It said:

 

"GRRM: CHARACTERS THAT ARE DEAD ALREADY ON THE SHOW WILL BE ALIVE THROUGH THEEND OF THE BOOKS"

 

Such characters are:

 

Team Dragonstone:

Stannis, Shireen, Selyse

 

Team Khaleesi:

Barristan, Rakharo, Irri and Jhiqui

 

No-Team Khaleesi:

Hizdhar, Pyat Pree and Xaro Xhoan Daxos

 

Team Lannister:

Myrcella, Meryn Trant

 

Team We-re-freezing-our-butts

Mance Ryder, Jojen, Grenn, Pyp

 

Team Robb

Catelyn, Talisa/Jeyne

 

(If I'm forgetting one, please, let me know)

 

And remember that any info about tWoW preview chapters goes between spoiler tags.

 

The only books discussion of AGT' tweets is here

[TepidHands]

I can pretty much guarantee Ned's still dead.  :bawl:

 

GRRM at notablog when asked said SOME characters that were dead on the show would be alive at the end. 

[Le Cygne]

Such characters are:

Stannis
Shireen
Selyse
Barristan
Mance Ryder
Meryn Trant
Hizdhar
Jojen
Grenn
Pyp

 
Robb's wife (aka Jeyne Westerling)
Irri
Rakharo

[Cashless Society]

Myrcella
Pyat
Xaro
Mago
Catelyn (as LSH)
Myranda

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Khal Dany meets Jaquo or whatever

[HexMachina]

[mod] I would just like to repeat this is not the place to bash the show/HBO/D&D. Please keep discussion to the futures of characters dead on the show but not the books, and any possible implications this has on the show's storylines (e.g. Merging things). So, keep it civil, thanks [/mod]
(Edit: this mod note wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Other people posted as I typed)


To add to JonCon's list: (and my thoughts on the implications for the show)
Jhaqo - without Eroeh the survival of Jhaqo and Mago, and Dany's sworn vengeance against them, becomes less significant. So it is likely the Dothraki storyline that is likely for WoW will occur without them, perhaps setting up new Dothraki to antagonise her.
Mago - as above
Irri and Jhiqui - In the books I suspect they will live throughout most of Dany's campaign. They are, as of the end of Dance, searching for her in the Dothraki Sea. I imagine there is not really a significant role for them in the remaining books, so there is little implication for the show here.
Talisa (whether she was liked or not, she was the show's approximation of Jeyne Westerling, who is still alive in the books) - tricky. There is a lot of speculation about Jeyne in the books. And GRRM has confirmed previously that (winds spoiler) [spoiler] Jeyne Westerling will appear in the prologue (he does not say she will be the POV though). This might involve her death, as Jaime has given orders to shoot her if there is any rescue attempt made while she is taken to Casterly Rock. Then of course there is the theory that "Jeyne" is actually her sister, who appears to be missing from the Riverrun scenes [/spoiler] all sorts of theories exist, from Jeyne secretly being pregnant with Robb's child, to being a rallying point for the North. I think she still has a somewhat important role to play in the books. What that is though I have no idea.
Myrcella. - she is dead in the show but not yet in the books (unless certain theories that Rosamund is actually impersonating her and Darkstar's blade was poisoned and thus killed Myrcella are true). Regardless of whether such theories are true or not, I think most agree that Myrcella is not going to survive until the end, due to Cersei's Maggi the Frog prophecy.

[TepidHands]

Oh and Barristan. We KNOW he's still alive in bookworld. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think the false assumption here is that MAJOR characters who die in the show might survive in the books. Really I cannot see this happening, of course your definition of who is a major character might be different to mine, but for instance I can see no way in the world that Stannis would survive till the end in the books if he dies in the show. 

I think the trajectory of the major characters arcs will mostly stay the same between both mediums, with deviations inbetween, ala Sansa. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

FIXED OP with missing characters.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the false assumption here is that MAJOR characters who die in the show might survive in the books. Really I cannot see this happening, of course your definition of who is a major character might be different to mine, but for instance I can see no way in the world that Stannis would survive till the end in the books if he dies in the show. 

I think the trajectory of the major characters arcs will mostly stay the same between both mediums, with deviations inbetween, ala Sansa. 

 

Depends. If Stannis' participation is to be a major player during the battle against the Others (which I assume will happen in the final book), I can see him surviving enough to be one of the characters involved in it. If the book has 70 chapters, and he dies in the 60, I still think it will fit Martin's words.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Depends. If Stannis' participation is to be a major player during the battle against the Others (which I assume will happen in the final book), I can see him surviving enough to be one of the characters involved in it. If the book has 70 chapters, and he dies in the 60, I still think it will fit Martin's words.

If he was going to a be a major actor against the others and had a major role to play in the story then its very unlikely that the show would kill him off, it would make zero sense to do that. So either  he is alive in the show and alive forever in the books, or hes dead in the show and shortly about to die in the books.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Pyat Pree and Xaro Xhoan Daxos...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If he was going to a be a major actor against the others and had a major role to play in the story then its very unlikely that the show would kill him off, it would make zero sense to do that. So either  he is alive in the show and alive forever in the books, or hes dead in the show and shortly about to die in the books.

 

Well, the logistics for Stannis doing in the books what the show implies he is going to do don't match, so I wouldn't take the book as a referent for his future actions.

 

Also, I suppose the show would need a more simplistic representation of what the battle against the Others will be (like, there is a big important game being played down in the Stormlands and Dorne and they had no problem cutting it all down).

 

I think that Stannis dying early simply means he WILL NOT sit on the Throne as many fans assume. Because yes, many believe he will participate in the battle up North and people will be grateful and name him King. I see that very unlikely. Stannis is not, and I am very sure of that, returning South.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Pyat Pree and Xaro Xhoan Daxos...

 

adding, thanks.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Technically Catelyn Stark is not "dead" either.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Well, the logistics for Stannis doing in the books what the show implies he is going to do don't match, so I wouldn't take the book as a referent for his future actions.

 

Also, I suppose the show would need a more simplistic representation of what the battle against the Others will be (like, there is a big important game being played down in the Stormlands and Dorne and they had no problem cutting it all down).

 

I think that Stannis dying early simply means he WILL NOT sit on the Throne as many fans assume. Because yes, many believe he will participate in the battle up North and people will be grateful and name him King. I see that very unlikely. Stannis is not, and I am very sure of that, returning South.

Well it suggests that any action Stannis now has in the books will be relatively minor, I highly doubt he will survive much longer and in the extremely unlikely event of his survival in the books, I can't see him doing anything of note. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well it suggests that any action Stannis now has in the books will be relatively minor, I highly doubt he will survive much longer and in the extremely unlikely event of his survival in the books, I can't see him doing anything of note. 

 

Stannis now is commanding against the Boltons, and it's likely he will win or at least, be very determinative in the Northern politics, specially because he is about to get Rickon and

 

[spoiler]

has both Theon and Asha

[/spoiler]

 

There is no way his actions will be minor.

[HexMachina]

If he was going to a be a major actor against the others and had a major role to play in the story then its very unlikely that the show would kill him off, it would make zero sense to do that. So either  he is alive in the show and alive forever in the books, or hes dead in the show and shortly about to die in the books.

I think Stannis still has a fairly important role to play. Either against The Others, or as an antagonist to Dany when she reaches Westeros. If it is the latter, then I imagine this will be resolved in the show by having a much reduced/streamlined version of Daenerys' invasion. Already we can say that is probably going to be scaled down compared to the books (with no Aegon, and Stannis' army defeated, Dany only has one opposing force - the Lannister/Tyrell coalition. Stannis' death just scales it down that bit more.
please note I do think Stannis will die before the end of the series, it is just that I also believe he still has a fairly significant role to play in the remaining books.

Another addition to the list (I think, I could just have misremembered) is Davos's son Devan. In the books he is alive and serves as Mel's guard.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Stannis now is commanding against the Boltons, and it's likely he will win or at least, be very determinative in the Northern politics, specially because he is about to get Rickon and

 

[spoiler]

has both Theon and Asha

[/spoiler]

 

There is no way his actions will be minor.

unless he loses. Which you don't know he won't and are assuming he wins because you think hes great.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

unless he loses. Which you don't know he won't and are assuming he wins because you think hes great.

 

I am not assuming he wins because he's great. I'm assuming he wins because the narrative of the books point out towards him either winning or being important for the North. In any case, he's already there and has made changes: he has already rallied the Northern clans into fight and was the one with the idea of letting the wildlings pass through the Wall. That's already a lot compared with Stannis from the show whose participation has been almost meaningless.

 

Before any battle against the others happens, the North needs to already have mostly of their political shenanigans solved. We're running out of time and these books close ends. Either men rally around Jon (which I doubt because he's a bit out of action atm) or some other Stark kid. Rickon is about to be brought back to the action. That's not a coincidence. That's the one leverage Stannis was needing. That's what will finally make the Northern Lords to follow him and keep united before Jon returns alive.