The Riverlands Web V.7

[Booknerd2]

The OP will always be a work in progress as characters, objects, places, post questions, and stuff is updated. 

Here are the links to all previous versions thus far in the spoiler box:

 

 

[spoiler] The Riverlands Web V.1: http://asoiaf.wester...riverlands-web/

The Riverlands Web V.2: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v2/

The Riverlands Web V.3: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v3/

The Riverlands Web V.4: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v4/

The Riverlands Web V.5: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v5/

The Riverlands Web V.6: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v6/ [/spoiler]

 

 

 

The Riverlands Web: Or How Some People Can’t Shake a Connection if They Tried.

 

This was started because it branched out of another thread and took on a life of its own. Many had thoughts regarding some characters and how far away they were from each other, and from the last two books we see that is now narrowing. The overlap or just missing each other that has been occurring will go somewhere eventually. In some cases, some theories were more likely than others. Many have debated what I called to myself the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon or Starks. I dabbled here and there on threads, but always wished it would be in one place with everything in front. Arcs are narrowing and have or are about to intersect. We started to only brush the surface and took a look. So we wanted to delve into situations/connections and interpretations of what they mean and could mean, and give it a place of its own.

 

Here are some we have discussed, there are certainly more: Mini-fact, organizer, profiles...

 

Primary Tier Characters: Common thread: All in Riverlands area, and all looking for Sansa and Arya.

 

Brienne –of Tarth. Former Rainbow Guard member of Renly. Associated with Sapphires. Knew Catelyn, met Gendry and knows he’s Roberts’s son of her own accord, and I don’t need to elaborate on what she is currently doing for LS and BWB. We know her Jaime situation and she has fetched him. She is currently looking for Sansa and Arya Stark. She did not realize it but met Sandor on the QI. EB knows what her current mission is, he might have told Sandor. Sandor was standing around in his Novice Brother Halloween costume and surely heard something. Knows Thoros. Current Status: With Jaime

 

Sandor – No ser. House Clegane. Former bodyguard to King Joffrey. KG. Familiar with Sansa and Arya Stark. Run-in with BWB, LS thinks he was the last person to see Arya. Sandor knows Jaime from KL and earlier than that. Currently with EB (or maybe not?) Knows Thoros. Saw Gendry with Arya. Knows Catelyn Stark was the girls mother. Knowledge of LS through EB???Unknown and Speculative. Was there when Brienne showed up to QI. Reaction presently unknown. News he has gathered or input from EB unknown. Current Status: QI or Maybe not

 

Gendry – Ser of the Hollow Hill - Knighted by Dondarrion. Bastard son of King Robert. Part Targ and Estermont. Former blacksmith's apprentice. Familiar with Arya – now knows Brienne – at orphanage assisting with looking for Arya/ Sansa - member of BWB. Saw Sandor take Arya. Met Ned, and is working with LS. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with LS, Thoros, BWB

 

Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn Tully Stark) – AKA - Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman, LS for posts, - House Tully/Stark/BWB - Looking for Sansa and Arya. Knows Gendry. Reaction unknown. Most likely knows he was with Arya.Thinks Sandor took Arya. Working with BWB and familiar with Brienne and Jaime as Catelyn and now LS (again we know they are headed toward her, so no need to elaborate). Knows Thoros. Current Status: WIth BWB, Gendry, Thoros, etc.

 

Brynden - AKA Blackfish - House Tully - Uncle and Great Uncle of LS, Arya, & Sansa. Certainly no Jaime fan, a'tall. Whereabouts currently unknown, but last seen escaping from Riverrun. Knows Hound. Current Status: ??? - which translates to: No one has any idea where the hell he is currently.

 

Jaime -House Lannister - KG - familiar and with Brienne. Knew Catelyn and will possibly soon know LS. Knows Blacksfish. Knows Arya and Sansa and looking for them. Knows Sandor. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with Brienne

 

Stranger - "Driftwood" - Badass horse of Sandor Clegane - House Clegane - Allegiance to Sandor - No one else can go near him risking personal injury/loss of body parts - ex: ear - hates everyone but Sandor - Knows Sansa and Arya - Knows Jaime -Knows Thoros - Knows Gendry - Knows BWB -  Saw Brienne briefly as she walked into his stable (he would say "jail") - hates Sandor's Novice Brother Halloween Costume - wants to keep his "bits" - surely incensed that EB could not come up with a better name than "Driftwood" (makes him sound like a dork) -  grateful in a way that his stable stall is not near the others - unable to be gelded - unable to be handled/cared for by anyone but Sandor - Advice: Don't even try! Not looking particularly for Sansa and Arya but will most likely agree to it, if his owner will get a move on already and get him the hell off the QI. Actually, the horse will probably agree to anything at this point for freedom. Current Status: Eye-rolling and attempting to kick the damn stable door down at the QI, or he would say "jail."

 

Nymeria - AKA BIG NYMS -House Stark - direwolf - one of original 6 in litter - 4 left - only female left of litter - Arya's direwolf - Connection/shared extension of/with Arya - hates the friggin Lannisters, Freys, etc. for many reasons - female alpha - roaming Riverlands - Hates everyone - Knows/hates Jaime - Knew Catelyn - pulled Catelyn as LS out of water/aware of LS to some degree - might have seen Arya/been aware of a presence -More concerned with Arya than Sansa most likely, but…still went in to retrieve LS/Arys's mother - might know Gendry/BWB/Thoros anyone Arya was around ( few reasons it could be or could not be) - rules pack of other male and female wolves -HDWIC - Current Status: Pissed off! Meanwhile in the Riverlands...

 

Thoros - of Myr, priest of R'hllor, BWB, bromance with Beric, with LS/not happy with how she runs things, Knows Sandor. Knows Stranger. Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Drinking buddies with King Robert. Known for sword on fire circus trick. Knows Brienne. Knows Gendry….???? we will get back to this. Current Status: With LS, Gendry, BWB

 

The Late Lord Walder Frey - nonagenarian – the cryptkeeper – extremely fertile – loves the ladies –widower many times over - will acknowledge bastards and is married more times than I can count –Lord of the Crossing – House Frey – rules the Twins – hates slights – can’t marry off multiple children and bastards and now grandchildren and so on – was pledged to Riverrun – called the Late Lord Frey by Hoster Tully – will hesitate to act unless he sees an advantage for himself/his House –he will take care of his progeny - host of the Red Wedding – knew Cat, hopefully will hear of/know LS – knows Jaime – May have heard of the Hound - despises Edmure and Blackfish -  comes from a long line of weak chins and weasely features -sided with Lannisters and Boltons and others over Starks and Tullys -broke guest right -his house is now targeted by Lady Stoneheart and BWB. Even Dunc thinks he started out life a real pain in the ass - He has a search for the outlaws responsible for the hangings of kin - The North and many others hate him due to treachery, murders and hostages, and his disavowing guest right. Current Status:  At the Twins – most likely hearing that House Frey decreased in number a bit more every few days. Responsible for death of Lady Stark, King Robb Stark, Grey Wind, many other people too, and still has several imprisoned. And really more problems every other day coming his way.

 

Secondary Tier Characters:

 

Harwin- House Stark allegiance - son of Hullen, Master of Horse of Winterfell - grew up and worked at Winterfell - stable boy/guard - Knows all members of House Stark very well, including previous generation, Rickard, Lyarra?, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna. Could id any Stark possibly. Used to lead Arya's pony as a child. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Could recently id Arya. BWB. Knows LS, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, Jaime, other BWB members. Knows Nymeria. Current Status: BWB, and theories about being sent somewhere else.

 

Tom of Sevenstreams - AKA - Tom O' Sevens, Tom Sevenstrings - BWB. Knows Thoros, Sandor, Jaime, LS, Arya, Gendry. Singer/Lyricist/Musician. Plays woodharp. Hit single "The Floppy Fish." Familiar with House Tully (Edmure, Lysa, Hoster?) might know or know of Brynden. Current Status: Apparently, still in BWB, posing as musician looking for work, has infiltrated Frey camp at Riverrun, where he encountered Jaime. Can update LS on status of Edmure/other intelligence.

 

Lem Lemoncloak - Lem short for Lemoncloak - Redundant double name - some speculate an alias with more background he is not revealing for some reason - BWB - known for yellow cloak, bad teeth, broken nose not set and healed properly, large, strong man - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor, Brienne, Pod, Hyle. Currently: Utlizing Sandor's Hound Helm ( Mistaken identity issue? with BWB at the hanging that was halted.)

 

Anguy- AKA - The Archer - From Dorne - commoner -excellent at archery - Known to blow money on luxuries and girls - BWB - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor. Knows and turned down offer from Ned Stark to join the Hand's Guard. Current Status: BWB

 

Septon Meribald- Septon that travels the Riverlands - from the area originally - illiterate - able to memorize religious doctrine of the Seven - lives on random assistance for food and shelter in exchange for carrying out septon duties. Distributes food and goods to poor. Travels with a donkey and a dog named "Dog." Knows Brienne, EB, Pod, Hyle, did run in to Sandor and Stranger on QI. Brings up the "tales" of Nymeria in circulation, but doesn't know who she is. Knows BWB. Current Status: Unknown, But allowed to go about his business by BWB.

 

Podrick Payne - "Pod" - House Payne - House is sworn to House Lannister - former squire to Tyrion - now accompanying Brienne - Knows Sandor. Saw EB, Sandor, Stranger? Would he know Sandor's horse? Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa Stark. Looking for Tyrion. Knows Sansa enough to possibly id her, which would be asset to Brienne. Knows BWB. Knows LS. Knows Gendry. Knows Thoros. Knows Meribald. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

 

Hyle Hunt- House Hunt - knight - allegiance to House Tarly - Knows Brienne, Pod, BWB, LS, Thoros, Meribald - rocky acquaintance with Brienne to begin with - Saw EB, Sandor, and Stranger - marriage proposal to Brienne was flatly denied - Did offer to fight Jaime in Brienne's place, offer denied. Seems to be looking for Sansa and Arya Stark, really, doing and going wherever Brienne is/does. Issues: may report back to Randyll Tarly. Obviously, knows Brienne is sole heir to Tarth and female, thus why he attempted to propose marriage. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

 

The Hot Pie - From Flea Bottom, orphan, baker, does not kick people in the balls to death, contrary to what he said, Familiar with Arya and Gendry, Knows BWB, Knows Thoros, Current Status: In Riverlands at Inn of the Kneeling Man - baking the Westeros version of the cronut - Inn named for Arya Stark ancestor, Torrhen, The King Who Knelt.

 

Elder Brother – name unknown –House ? - former knight – House Targaryen allegiance during Robert’s Rebellion - supposed healing powers – head guy on Quiet Isle – unknown if he suggested the attempted nut-napping of Stranger – no vow of silence currently – appears through his story that he does have things in common with Sandor – did experience a doomed love - acquires news of events outside QI – we are not sure if he speaks with Sandor since their initial conversation we hear about secondhand when he tells Brienne info – tall, shaved head, not sure if veiny, red nose suggests drinking? – knows Brienne, Pod, Hyle, Septon Meribald – Unknown if he exchanges news with Meribald – knows of Saltpans – possible harboring of Sandor, yet he tells Brienne he is dead and constructed a decoy grave and laid the Hound Helm there before it was taken by Rorge – he knows Sandor travelled with the true Arya and shares this with Brienne – knows of Arya and Sansa – possibly knows or heard of other Webbers such as Jaime and Blackfish – does he know of BWB, the orphanage? Is he harboring other individuals? Current Status: On the Quiet Isle

 

Tertiary Tier Characters: Coming soon...

 

Edric Dayne - Ned - House Dayne – Lord/heir of Starfall – Dorne – was squire to Beric Dondarrion/ his almost uncle in-law. Does not possess Dawn…yet? Only living Dayne relative known is Aunt Allyria of the very long engagement that was not to be. Former member of BWB that defected with some members after Beric died and LS took over. Milk-brothers with Jon Snow, nursed by Wylla. Knows Sandor and Stranger, Jaime, LS, and the entire BWB. Oh….Gendry certainly knows who he is. He knows Arya. Appears to have knowledge of Starks. Knows Sansa. Current Status: Whereabouts Unknown – no known objectives that are clear at the moment.

 

Edmure Tully – House Tully heir – Riverrun – mocked by Tom O’s Sevens in song, “the floppy fish” -Knows Marq Piper – Fought and led men against battles with Lannisters and Gregor’s Riverlands raids – Tytos Blackwood rescues him – Known for his kind heart and sheltering and concern for the small folk at Riverrun even at an expense – Both Robb and Blackfish are upset with him for disrupting plans they had – In Robb’s place he marries a Frey girl, Roslin - At his bedding, the Red Wedding occurs and he later hears of the deaths - Walder Frey, his father-in-law takes him prisoner, and Riverrun is later besieiged – Blackfish does not budge as Edmure is threatened with hanging at a constructed gallows - The siege is lifted when Jaime arrives and amongst further negotiations - Edmure is given a choice: surrender Riverrun and his lordship and he will be moved to Casterly Rock where his wife will meet him upon giving birth - A tidy keep will be granted when their child comes of age - Any Riverrun defenders would lose their arms but would not be taken prisoner. Or, the castle and defenders would be attacked and both destroyed, with his baby reaching him “by catapult.” Edmure is allowed to bathe and to the tune “The Rains of Castamere.” Edmure delays the surrender to allow Blackfish to bounce. He is related to Catelyn/LS and Blackfish. Does not know what happened to his sister as LS. Knows the Hound. Knows BWB in general. Knows Tom only as a singer he dislikes. Knows the Stark children but not by sight. Oh, he knows Jaime all right. Current Status: Held by the Lannisters as a prisoner heading for the Westerlands and Casterly Rock. 

 

Places in the Riverlands: Coming Soon...

 

The Inn at the Crossroads -

 

Peach/Stoney Sept -

 

The Twins - The Crossing – House Frey – 2 identical castles linked by a bridge and consisting of the Water Tower – at the Trident’s Green Fork – Fees are charged to pass – at a high price – source of Frey wealth – near route that goes from Riverlands north to Winterfell – it is heavily fortified. Site of Catelyn Stark’s meeting with Lord Frey in negotiations for Robb. Roose Bolton was married and his host stopped there. Also, it was the site of the Red Wedding massacre. Current Status: Lord Frey and many of his relatives, are lying in wait as word of Frey deaths emerge sporadically, and other news that affects the House would reach Lord Walder.  Surely, the Late Lord Frey Death Watch is on amongst his relatives. Lady Roslin Frey Tully awaits the birth of her baby as well.

 

Riverrun – House Tully – allegiance to House Stark -  Red Fork/Tumblestones – three-sided castle – stand-out feature is flooding a moat that can encircle the entire castle – excellent for sieges – Littlefinger was fostered here – site of double wedding of Ned Stark/Catelyn Tully and Jon Arryn/Lysa Stark – Robb Stark was born here – Riverrun has had its share of sieges – and eventually the Tullys are stripped of their ancestral home when Riverrun is given to Emmon Frey of the infamous “piece of paper.” It is surrenedered by Edmure but not before the Blackfish swims off. Current Status: in the possession of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister Frey.

 

More to come...

 

Objects and Miscellaneous Coming soon...

 

Dog - a massive, shaggy dog named Dog – hangs out with Septon Meribald and protects him – has tussled with wolves (Big Nyms lost a few minions, I suppose) – Meribald believes he is a dog that hasn’t given his name yet, which also reflects the Hound keeping his identity quiet with help from EB – He is friendly unless you mess with him/Meribald – Meribald treats him well and keeps him fed – He will bark back if spoken too seemingly in answer – he sniffs the Gravedigger and his ear is scratched – at the Inn he sniffs out the blood from the Hound/Arya pub brawl on the floor that has seeped in the wood – The brothers have given bones to Dog before, telling us it is not his first visit with Meribald there. Current Status: unknown but assumed alive and possibly left with Meribald – Brienne does hear him barking during her fight with Rorge and Biter at the Inn.

 

The Bull Helm – created by Gendry at Tobho Mott’s Shop, King’s Landing – helm is representative of a bull with horns – symbolic of his size, strength, stubborness – his identity as forged by himself individually – he is sometimes called “The Bull” - representative of sticking it to boys he worked with at Mott’s - Ned Stark offered to buy it but he was told it was not for sale – indicative of him knowing who he is and he cannot be bought – a source of pride and nostalgia for most likely his first major project he completed as an apprentice smith, and perhaps the nicest and the most prized possession he owned –was used as armor for defense on the road - Current Status: It was taken by Dunsen, who is on Arya’s list, as well as Polliver, who did not have it at the pub brawl with Arya and Sandor. After that the whereabouts are unknown. Not sure if possible, or if it is symbolic of falling away and forging a new identity, but we are curious if it is seen again.

 

The Hound Helm -belongs to Sandor Clegane - reflective of House Clegane sigil, history, nickname/the Hound persona, and all that entails separate from Sandor - symbolic of a both fierce and loyal nature, the ability to sniff and sense bullshit/lies - now a symbol of falsely attributed atrocities committed not by Sandor - the Helm was laid on Sandor’s grave according to EB, and it was later stolen by Rorge - When he is killed by Brienne it is taken by Lem of the BWB. Current Status: with Lem, who was warned not to utilize it with misgivings by Thoros of Myr.

 

Needle -

 

Oathkeeper - Valyrian steel – one of two swords re-forged by Tobho Mott (Gendry’s former master smith/employer) from the Northern Stark longsword formerly known as Ice. A longsword and sister to Widow’s Wail which is smaller. It has a golden pommel carved into a Lannister lion’s head with two ruby chips for eyes. The blade itself is rippled black/red.  The gold scabbard has a series of lion’s heads and bedazzler rubies. (Any former Stark  or Northerner would be turning in their grave; they do simple. Sorry, it still pisses me off.) Lord Tywin gives it as a gift to Jaime originally but he asks Brienne to use it and doles out the name. In essence, the sword of Ned Stark is now in service to find his two daughters. It was the sword used to kill Lord Stark by Ilyn Payne. Requests by Robb and Catelyn to have it returned were denied previously. It is also incriminating evidence that Brienne has forgotten her oath to Lady Stark and is used by the BWB and LS as proof of collaborating with the Lannisters. Current Status: with Brienne of Tarth in the Riverlands, if it is on her?

 

More to come...

 

The common link - The Webbers are looking for:

 

Arya Stark - 

 

Sansa Stark - 

 

The Vale Connection: Coming soon...

 

Mad Mouse -

 

Myranda Royce -

 

Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish - 

[Booknerd2]

Ok, here is V.7. 

 

I will post the links to the other versions when I can, as promised in the OP. Also, I think we all realize how vast and broad this area, topic, and the events there and still to come are, so that OP does have to get additions. So glad I put "work in progress" in there, because it damn well is.  

 

I will post that hanging post from version 6 in a few.

 

Oh, and some more Stranger stuff in the coming days.

[Lord Wraith]

 

Oh, and some more Stranger stuff in the coming days.

 

Please do it is the best.

[Lord Wraith]

Thanks. The quote comes from Mao, and sums up perfectly how a guerilla army operates.

You can't tell who among your men or camp followers or the local inhabitants is
a member of the BWB; who is passing information to them; who has been told by them to do nothing until the time comes to strike; or who simply turns a blind eye to their activities.

So, Petyr Pimple is lured to his death by a whore; Lord Smallwood is besieging Riverrun, while Lady Smallwood gives the BWB supplies; word was passed to the BWB the moment Ser Ryman Frey left the siege (the fool had Tom singing for him. I hope he met Lady Stoneheart prior to death); they can go to and from Stoney Sept, but no doubt the inhabitants would say they'd never seen them. I don't doubt they've thoroughly infiltrated Riverrun, with so many Tully servants there.

 

I knew I recognized it from somewhere. Interesting the fish analogy considering the Tully's, I can't help that Martin might be using some historical works on war.

 

From the 36 stratagems:

 

• Send your enemy beautiful women to cause discord within his camp. This strategy can work on three levels. First, the ruler becomes so enamoured with the beauty that he neglects his duties and allows his vigilance to wane. Second, other males at court will begin to display aggressive behaviour that inflames minor differences hindering co-operation and destroying morale. Third, other females at court, motivated by jealousy and envy, begin to plot intrigues further exacerbating the situation.

 

Sounds like all the whores working with the BWB.  Especially the ones targeting the Frey's.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

SeanF, on 01 Sept 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

Thanks. The quote comes from Mao, and sums up perfectly how a guerilla army operates.

You can't tell who among your men or camp followers or the local inhabitants is
a member of the BWB; who is passing information to them; who has been told by them to do nothing until the time comes to strike; or who simply turns a blind eye to their activities.

So, Petyr Pimple is lured to his death by a whore; Lord Smallwood is besieging Riverrun, while Lady Smallwood gives the BWB supplies; word was passed to the BWB the moment Ser Ryman Frey left the siege (the fool had Tom singing for him. I hope he met Lady Stoneheart prior to death); they can go to and from Stoney Sept, but no doubt the inhabitants would say they'd never seen them. I don't doubt they've thoroughly infiltrated Riverrun, with so many Tully servants there.

Hey SeanF.  This is I think the best description of the BWB, the Riverlands and their subsequent relationship in the region.  The guerrilla tactics make it hard to pick up, hence Frey's blaming Frey's for family deaths by the BWB, when in fact they should be looking all around them etc......  
 
Anyway, it can be difficult to really appreciate the size and organisation of this group sometimes, but we as readers do get some little tid bits and names to start building up a better picture of what's going on within the text.  For example, the bolded statement above, the Queen 'o' whores [as Ryman named her] was wearing Robb's crown in that scene at RR, Jaime orders it stays there, but is taken anyway.  The next thing we know, Ryman and his men were hanged on route back to the Twins, and when we see LSH again, she is gazing and stroking the crown.  So I feel that's pretty much proof that Ryman did see LSH before his death, and no mention of women or whores being hanged, perhaps more likely a thank you and some food ? 
 
Another good example is that families Piper and Vance have been influential from the start. 
-Both were present with Lord Darry when meeting with Ned in AGOT, forcing action in the RL's. 
 
-Both perform raids and fought against the Lannisters, Karyl Vance led a force at 'battle of the fords' helping Robb considerably. 
 
-Both present at Hoster Tulley's funeral, key players in the RL's. 
 
-Both families sit on Jaime's war council at the moment.  Clement Piper forces the release of the prisoners [his son Marq is one] and Karyl Vance convinces Jaime to parlay with Bracken and Blackwood, taking a fraction of the retinue he had at RR with him, and alas he is somehow found by Brienne and is whisked off into the sunset.  We know for sure that the Vance master is a BWB informant from Arya's time with them, and Karyl Vance has been a player the whole time.  It seems to me Jaime was set up so Brienne could be sent with clear directions as to where he'd be and a smaller retinue to boot, it all seemed rather easy. 
 
Anyway a quick look at what we actually know.  The following families have given BWB hospitality and help.
 
Lychester - Vance - Roote - Goodbrook - Smallwood - Piper - Bracken - Charlton.  
 
That is all the almost all the Houses noted by Jaime at RR.  

 

'' Jaime noted all the banners of Lychester and Vance, of Roote and Goodbrook, the acorns of House Smallwood and Lord Piper's dancing maiden ''

 

Bracken he muses are fighting the Blackwoods and House Charlton are sworn to the Frey's so are likely with them.  This is very consistent, all the places we visited with Arya and the BWB are at RR in force.  And he ends up at the Bracken and Blackwood feud.  On the look out for any House Charlton action in Winds, could just be adding depth.  And let's not forget that House Blackwood were the last to be supporting Robb's cause in the RL's and are known Stark supporters. 

 

I need to do a more coherent post on this, will do that soon.  But to leave us with what we know in list form

 

- 80/%ish of RL families have met or know of the BWB and their goals, and are at different levels somehow involved/helping.

- Houses Piper and Vance are key schemers.  Lords influential on Jaime's war council + Vance maester a BWB informant.

- After visiting Stoney Sept it is established that the whores are helping [directly....., queen 'o'] and all over the camps at RR.

- There is another faction of BWB that left after LSH, no indication they gave up on Beric's plans and work he put in.

- We have names of helpers- Lady of the Leaves - Notch - Tom 'o' - Vance maester - Houses mentioned above - whores etc....

- Places : They've used High Heart - Oldstones - seen fleeing into the Neck - Know of hidden pass at Golden Tooth, Inn/orphanage etc....

- With Ryman came food, almost certainly weapons as well. Need to arm up as well as poss. Is Gendry repairing some of it ?

- They seem to have a great info network, as mentioned but also signal fires. Maybe wandering Darry's as well ? etc......

 

I'm probably missing some stuff, but the point is the BWB have got a massive network all over the RL's, with some really cool set ups from George that transpire at the siege of RR, and we're left with some of these players having an influence on what happens with Jaime moving forward.  [Piper+Vance] more to come me thinks.

 

The travelling party of the released prisoners on the KR has effectively been set up by Clement Piper + Karyl Vance has IMHO set up Jaime for capture by Brienne and the BWB.   Basically pretty much nothing is getting past the BWB and the RL's at large at the moment. 

 

They have effectively got to a position where by they can play the political game with Jaime and have the forces start to disperse under seemingly agreeable terms.  When in fact all the hidden hard work behind the scenes that's been going on for ages, is now coming into fruition.  So off the forces go, home, it's all over.  But the shit's about to hit the fan and Jaime is headed for probably High Heart with the BWB, ignored Cersei and KL, lost his retinue and with information for his men, at a loss.  

 

I will post an improved version at some point, but hope this gave a slightly clearer picture for some as to the real scope of this large, organised group.     :)

[Booknerd2]

Ok, the hanging post from V.6

 

A nice parallel for the two Stark sister's avatar buddies. The Hound espouses all the anti- knight and ser stuff and wanting to be his own dog. Then he shocks the shit out of us doing a 360 and tells Arya, oh, by the way, just casually throwing this out here, but I want  to serve Robb and Cat. And we know damn well it is out of love and to try and help her family. Selfless and one of the most moving things I've read in the series. He is not willing to do it for anyone else, even himself, but he will do it for Sansa.

 

On Gendry's end, we get pages and pages of him bitching about knights and birth and crap. And what happens? Arya leaves his life, he is at a makeshift orphanage where people are searching for her, he could be held there, or it is self imposed and he was willing (that I am curious about and we don't know) because he can id her quicker and they or he may think it would help because they were buddies. So, what does he do after all that crap he blustered about? What do ya know? Looks like he seriously wants to become a knight, and the sword is the tip off. Because to have a running bit about how anti-noble establishment he is and then for it to go nowhere over such a consistent fuss, doesn't make sense. And of course, it it tied to his id as Robert's son too.

 

I've said it many a time. I truly believe we are supposed to see that he is angry and bummed out and has changed in AFFC for a reason/reasons. And then he thinks the Hound gets thrown in his face with Brienne, (it's not him) and all he can utter is a single name. That is for the reader. That is reminding us again about how his buddy was taken abruptly from him, as if the Heddle comparison and Dog sniffing wasn't enough. And…might I add, all in the same chapter. Otherwise, no reason to write that part. I can't shake it. Just an opinion, but still.

 

I believe in trail dropping and patterns.

[Booknerd2]

snip

Hey, Wizz.

 

Excellent. Really splayed out so many things I sure as hell never picked up on. When put all together…wow.

 

Brienne was a what the…? for me. How she found him so fast and how we've all debated in earlier RW versions, what the hell she is going to do next. One of the greatest cliffhangers going into the next book.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey, Wizz.
 
Excellent. Really splayed out so many things I sure as hell never picked up on. When put all together…wow.
 
Brienne was a what the…? for me. How she found him so fast and how we've all debated in earlier RW versions, what the hell she is going to do next. One of the greatest cliffhangers going into the next book.

 

Thanks bookie !  There really is so much spread throughout the series, awesome writing.  When it comes together like this it gives depth to what George is creating here, this is one of the reasons it takes years to write these things, I'll wait.  :)

 

And yeah Brienne, she was in the company of a very well informed LSH and her band of [not so] merry men at roughly the same time as Jaime is sorting out RR, and Piper and Vance are playing their tricks.  As mentioned the Vance master etc etc...  There is ample time and opportunity for this info to circulate.

 

So this creates a very real opportunity for the BWB to know exactly where Jaime is going to be and when.  Under strength at that.  That Brienne turns up out of nowhere it does beg the question of how she found him so easily ?  I call BWB intelligence is how.

 

Add to that the strange inquisitive nature from Tytos Blackwood as to where exactly Jaime was going next.  Something along the lines of................. ''Riverun ? Not Kings Landing ?''    Maybe another clue as to the BWB/RL's wanting to know his exact whereabouts ?  Certainly seemed very easy.

 

As for the scene with Jaime + LSH, I have seen some ideas in LML's threads.  Too much to mention now, but one for the future. Anyway, I feel Oathkeeper is going to be very important.  ;)   LML's threads/wordpress page are awesome, time consuming, but awesome.  Look them up if you can, not all will be right, but great ideas.   

 

EDIT : Hey bookie, I'm still on team Piper and Vance in case you hadn't noticed.    :lol:

[Booknerd2]

 

Thanks bookie !  There really is so much spread throughout the series, awesome writing.  When it comes together like this it gives depth to what George is creating here, this is one of the reasons it takes years to write these things, I'll wait.  :)

 

And yeah Brienne, she was in the company of a very well informed LSH and her band of [not so] merry men at roughly the same time as Jaime is sorting out RR, and Piper and Vance are playing their tricks.  As mentioned the Vance master etc etc...  There is ample time and opportunity for this info to circulate.

 

So this creates a very real opportunity for the BWB to know exactly where Jaime is going to be and when.  Under strength at that.  That Brienne turns up out of nowhere it does beg the question of how she found him so easily ?  I call BWB intelligence is how.

 

Add to that the strange inquisitive nature from Tytos Blackwood as to where exactly Jaime was going next.  Something along the lines of................. ''Riverun ? Not Kings Landing ?''    Maybe another clue as to the BWB/RL's wanting to know his exact whereabouts ?  Certainly seemed very easy.

 

As for the scene with Jaime + LSH, I have seen some ideas in LML's threads.  Too much to mention now, but one for the future. Anyway, I feel Oathkeeper is going to be very important.  ;)   LML's threads/wordpress page are awesome, time consuming, but awesome.  Look them up if you can, not all will be right, but great ideas.   

 

EDIT : Hey bookie, I'm still on team Piper and Vance in case you hadn't noticed.    :lol:

 

 

It's great because it reminds me of this book I saw for kids where the image changes and opens up more and more as you turn the page.  You totally weren't seeing what you thought you were. I'm making this up because I forget, but it is like one page is a flea, the next is the dog its on, the next is the ground the dog is on, the next is the earth, the next is the universe. Er, this is what happened to me with discovering BWB. Which you have done fine work with BWB and Piper and Vance and many other Riverlands connected topics from day 1 and version 1. Just stuff that I never, ever picked up on, and a lot I hadn't encountered elsewhere either.

 

I remember how it kept growing for me and escalating that there was more to the BWB than I originally thought. I mentioned in the last version of RW how they are sort of painted as maybe a group of people in the beginning to not expect much from. I know I was more worried that they didn't hurt Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie. The focus was on their personal habits and inclinations. Drinking, partying, the ladies, gambling, spending, etc. I remember the day it popped that more was going on. My initial reaction was: Wait…this bunch of losers? Sorry, so not the Superfriends, for chrissakes.  LOL! Between Tom and his women and the information I didn't need from Lady Smallwood, Thoros being Robert's party buddy, etc. It was total genius redirecting from the author.

 

Going back to the argument with Sybell too. Jaime wins that one, and that might have been his last hurrah for now. To show us a moment where he totally has the upper hand and control, because he soon won't. Because we suspect, and as you've cleverly worded, he has no idea the amount of people around him spying, working for BWB, and luring him into some type of path away from what his plans are and what he thinks he's going to do next. 

[Lord Wraith]

 

Going back to the argument with Sybell too. Jaime wins that one, and that might have been his last hurrah for now. To show us a moment where he totally has the upper hand and control, because he soon won't. Because we suspect, and as you've cleverly worded, he has no idea the amount of people around him spying, working for BWB, and luring him into some type of path away from what his plans are and what he thinks he's going to do next. 

 

The upper hand...  :cheers:

 

Brienne is leading Jaime to LSH. It will be interesting to see who is going to survive the encounter. Jaime is literally surrounded by enemies and he doesn't realize it yet.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

It's great because it reminds me of this book I saw for kids where the image changes and opens up more and more as you turn the page.  You totally weren't seeing what you thought you were. I'm making this up because I forget, but it is like one page is a flea, the next is the dog its on, the next is the ground the dog is on, the next is the earth, the next is the universe. Er, this is what happened to me with discovering BWB. Which you have done fine work with BWB and Piper and Vance and many other Riverlands connected topics from day 1 and version 1. Just stuff that I never, ever picked up on, and a lot I hadn't encountered elsewhere either.
 
I remember how it kept growing for me and escalating that there was more to the BWB than I originally thought. I mentioned in the last version of RW how they are sort of painted as maybe a group of people in the beginning to not expect much from. I know I was more worried that they didn't hurt Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie. The focus was on their personal habits and inclinations. Drinking, partying, the ladies, gambling, spending, etc. I remember the day it popped that more was going on. My initial reaction was: Wait…this bunch of losers? Sorry, so not the Superfriends, for chrissakes.  LOL! Between Tom and his women and the information I didn't need from Lady Smallwood, Thoros being Robert's party buddy, etc. It was total genius redirecting from the author.
 
Going back to the argument with Sybell too. Jaime wins that one, and that might have been his last hurrah for now. To show us a moment where he totally has the upper hand and control, because he soon won't. Because we suspect, and as you've cleverly worded, he has no idea the amount of people around him spying, working for BWB, and luring him into some type of path away from what his plans are and what he thinks he's going to do next.

 

It certainly has evolved, until that scene with Jaime at RR, Arya's journey with the BWB could've seemed fruitless, but no, in George we trust, and he delivered.  The realisation I had when all this came together was a great feeling, it reignited old chapters and made me re-read them, search the wiki etc.......  Again, great writing.

 

I like your point about the author redirecting our thoughts, that's very apt.  It's in the smaller details you get the real story, but great attention needed to peel back some of these layers.

 

As for Jaime, I feel a little sorry for him.  I think we all agree he showed great leadership and negotiating skills at RR, but it seems it was all playing into the hands of what the RL's/BWB had in mind anyway.  He can't catch a break.  :dunno:  Still, I think he will be alright. [I hope] :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

The upper hand...  :cheers:
 
Brienne is leading Jaime to LSH. It will be interesting to see who is going to survive the encounter. Jaime is literally surrounded by enemies and he doesn't realize it yet.

 

Ha !  The upper hand !  In true RWeb tradition the puns are greeted with a lol !  This one [almost] never gets old.     :P

 

And I look forward to that Jaime + LSH scene more than most in Winds, as bookie said one of the greatest cliffhangers in the series ! 

[SeanF]

I think that support for the BWB has just snowballed, particularly after the Red Wedding. 3,500 people were murdered. Hundreds were taken prisoner. Many of those were Riverlanders. They will all have had friends and family, who are now burning to avenge them.

[OldGimletEye]

I think that support for the BWB has just snowballed, particularly after the Red Wedding. 3,500 people were murdered. Hundreds were taken prisoner. Many of those were Riverlanders. They will all have had friends and family, who are now burning to avenge them.

I've generally agreed with you take on that the small folk can be important when pushed too far. The BWB seems to be a manifestation of that. Also, if I recall correctly, Jaime has to hear the nobles bitching about how the small folk are lying to them. That seems to show some support for the BWB and that the small folk are fed up.

[Lord Wraith]

I think that support for the BWB has just snowballed, particularly after the Red Wedding. 3,500 people were murdered. Hundreds were taken prisoner. Many of those were Riverlanders. They will all have had friends and family, who are now burning to avenge them.

 

 

I've generally agreed with you take on that the small folk can be important when pushed too far. The BWB seems to be a manifestation of that. Also, if I recall correctly, Jaime has to hear the nobles bitching about how the small folk are lying to them. That seems to show some support for the BWB and that the small folk are fed up.

 

 

Radio Westeros has a great video on the BWB.  Near the end they take an accounting of all the missing or unaccounted Riverlands and Northern forces that could have joined up with the BWB. There are a lot more forces in the Riverlands than most people seem to think.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I think that support for the BWB has just snowballed, particularly after the Red Wedding. 3,500 people were murdered. Hundreds were taken prisoner. Many of those were Riverlanders. They will all have had friends and family, who are now burning to avenge them.

 

Exactly.  And the clues we do get all point to a massive majority of the RL's/BWB working together.  The oblivious are few, Lannister retinue - Freys etc....  Of course as you mention, there will be different levels of coherence, but a lot singing off the same hymn sheet.   

[SeanF]

I've generally agreed with you take on that the small folk can be important when pushed too far. The BWB seems to be a manifestation of that. Also, if I recall correctly, Jaime has to hear the nobles bitching about how the small folk are lying to them. That seems to show some support for the BWB and that the small folk are fed up.

Part of that bitching is deliberate deception (Wizz summarises well how much noble support exists for the BWB). But, there are nobles who are genuinely worried, such as the people at Darry. It would be a pity if Gatehouse Ami or Lady Genna Frey got strung up along with genuinely guilty people.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Radio Westeros has a great video on the BWB.  Near the end they take an accounting of all the missing or unaccounted Riverlands and Northern forces that could have joined up with the BWB. There are a lot more forces in the Riverlands than most people seem to think.

 

Agreed, in fact Lady Gwyn, Yolkboy and History of Westeros have been where I have found most of these links that as I mentioned led to re-reads of chapters etc....  They've done some great work, highly recommended. H.O.W have an extensive RL's video set, they mention Piper + Vance always being together and scheming in one vid which led to my interest in them.    :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Part of that bitching is deliberate deception (Wizz summarises well how much noble support exists for the BWB). But, there are nobles who are genuinely worried, such as the people at Darry. It would be a pity if Gatehouse Ami or Lady Genna Frey got strung up along with genuinely guilty people.

 

Agreed.  It does seem there are some innocent people tarnished with the wrong sort of brush in precarious positions in the RL's.  Genna for one seems sharp as a tack, and already showing concerns with politics, and a very likeable character to boot.  I too hope she comes out of this ok, her savvy and quick wit may serve her well, let's hope so.  :)

[Lord Wraith]

 

Agreed, in fact Lady Gwyn, Yolkboy and History of Westeros have been where I have found most of these links that as I mentioned led to re-reads of chapters etc....  They've done some great work, highly recommended. H.O.W have an extensive RL's video set, they mention Piper + Vance always being together and scheming in one vid which led to my interest in them.    :)

 

Piper + Vance were part of the initial warmonger trio along with Raymun Darry.  I still feel that House Darry has some role to play. There are some hints that I am attempting to piece together that they might be part of the Sparrow movement.  Darry is mentioned way too often not to have a role still to play.