Best Monarch We've Seen

[The Wolves]

 
No, he didn't.
 
"Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?"
 
He thought they'd be hated, not that they would not survive the winter and when Tyrion went North his his Stark wife and son after Winter they would be backed over the Greyjoys.

He thought they would suffer a Northern winter and yeah they would the Ironborn was not going to make it in the North to believe that they would was ridiculous.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And why would Tywin make a deal?

Because he is offering him his support to deal with Robb. Balon tried to initiate terms with the Crown.

"Balon Greyjoy, who now styles himself King of the Isles and the North, has written to us offering terms of alliance."
 
Now, unbeknownst to Balon and the Small Council, Tywin has already made a deal with Roose and Walder to bring the North back into the Kingdom yet he still does not rule it out and even considers a marriage pact between Balon and Cersei.
 
The Master of Ships is in favour of Balons offer. "Lord Redwyne pinched at his nose. "May we return to the matter of the Greyjoy alliance? In my view, there is much to be said for it. Greyjoy's longships will augment my own fleet and give us sufficient strength at sea to assault Dragonstone and end Stannis Baratheon's pretensions."
 
 

Moreover, I thought his independence was so dear to him, now he want to throw that away for some of the poorer places in the north?

 It is not that dear to him.
 
"No man has ever died from bending his knee," her father had once told her. "He who kneels may rise again, blade in hand. He who will not kneel stays dead, stiff legs and all."
 

I doubt he could have held on to what he captured in the North, even if he makes a deal with Tywin.

 
Why not? We know from the Norths history that there have been various times that the Ironborn have held parts of the North. It is not that unlikely a scenario that the Ironborn control parts of the North, especially in the Norths current weakened state.
 

Would Tywin really care if in a couple of years the Northmen decide to kick out the Ironborn? Possibly, but I think not.

 
Who knows. A lot can happen till Spring, they may have proved themselves useful they may not.
 
 

He thought they would suffer a Northern winter and yeah they would the Ironborn was not going to make it in the North to believe that they would was ridiculous.

 
Sure. Everyone in the North suffers in Winter, but the fact they were still there in the Spring shows that they would have survived.

[Sullen]

How was he to keep the North during winter?

 

How was he to lose it?

 

The North was defeated, the Iron Fleet stationed on the Western Coast, and he would have likely made a deal with Tywin and the Iron Throne.

 

 

Even Tywin thought that come winter the Ironborn wasn't going to make it and they weren't.

 

He thought they'd dislike him, which would allow Tywin to barge in and install Tyrion and Sansa instead, not that he'd lose the North.

 

 

And no he wasn't going to bring the North back under the throne it's too big, too many Northernmen and the Ironborn was better fighting on sea than land.

 

The North was brought back under the Throne even without the Ironborn, Balon would just speed up that process even more.

 

 

Balon's plan was stupid, short lived and gained him nothing but dead men and once again his children captive of Northernmen.

 

Balon's plan was better than either Robb's or Stannis's, the Ironborn are still nearly at full strength after all.

 

His children getting captured has nothing to do with his plan. Theon got himself capture through his own foolishness, and Asha only got exiled because of Euron.

 

 

 

No, it is frustration at the fairly idiotic decision making. I like the Starks a lot more then Tywin (though he is a great character) but can see Tywin at least fought a strategically smart campaign.

 

Tywin was never given the opportunity to side with Robb, he was always a clear antagonist. The same can't be said of Balon.

 

Again, Balon's plan was smart if you consider he plans to fold later.

 

 

And why would Tywin make a deal?

 

Helps him deal with the rebellious North easier, he doesn't have to go to war with the Ironborn afterwards either. Considering the Crown's lack of ships, that is no small matter.

 

 

Moreover, I thought his independence was so dear to him, now he want to throw that away for some of the poorer places in the north?

 

Independence is not that important, power is... see his speech to Asha about bending the knee.

 

The Northern western coast might be poor, but it is rich and arable in comparaison to the Iron Islands... lumber is not to be dismissed as well.

 

If Balon gains a considerable amount of land after his rebellion, then it is a personal victory.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Jaehaerys I for me, no contest.

 

There doesn't need to be anyone else on the list and I don't really care if you wanted to reduce the pool down to everyone after Aerys, as if you get to cherry pick who other people think were the best monarchs.  

 

I mean for the sake of argument you listed Aegon as 8th and he's the king of nothing, you list Aurane Waters, who is also a king of nothing... but yet, you think no one before Aerys should be included... 

 

I think you missed the point of the thread. I agree, Jaehaerys I is the best monarch Westeros has ever seen hands down.

 

I'm not examining all the monarchs, just the ones we've seen from AGOT through ADWD. And that includes those who called themselves king even if they have no real royal power, i e Viserys, Aurane, Mance, Cleon, etc.

 

The point is to rank and discuss the kings (and queen) that we've been witness to, not any historical king that we've only heard about. I guess you could include the kings from D&E, but I wanted this thread to be about the primary ASOIAF storyline that begins in AGOT

[The Wolves]

 
Sure. Everyone in the North suffers in Winter, but the fact they were still there in the Spring shows that they would have survived.

You do know that winter and spring in the North are completely different right?

GRRM calls the North's winters cruel we see how everyone is struggling in the North in ADWD and it's not even winter according to them, the Northernmen are the only ones who seem to be handling the snow and winter better than anyone.

Winter would have killed the Ironborn they can't handle the north's winters without help from the Northernmen and the Northermen would have just used it as a way to wage war on them.

[ConfusedCounselor]

Tywin was never given the opportunity to side with Robb, he was always a clear antagonist. The same can't be said of Balon.

 

Again, Balon's plan was smart if you consider he plans to fold later.

 

 

Yes, siding with Tywin was an option, although at the point he did Tywins position wasn't as rosy as it would later be. Still if he wanted to do so, he should actually get from Tywin what he wanted before choosing his side.

Kindhearted tourist will pay kids who wash their carwindows without them asking too, Tywin sure as hell won't.

 

Even his previous rebellion was stupid as hell. Robert had strong connection to the North, Vale, Stormlands and Westerlands. The Riverlands had strong connections to two of those. But Roberts rule was weak and people wouldn't support him enough. Sure.  

 

Helps him deal with the rebellious North easier, he doesn't have to go to war with the Ironborn afterwards either. Considering the Crown's lack of ships, that is no small matter.

 

 

Meh, he'd also lose the Ironborn out of his kingdom. Balon already weakened the North without him asking too, no reason for him to give it or parts of it away. Especially if he can have Roose or Tyrion hold it instead, within his grandsons realm. 

 

Independence is not that important, power is... see his speech to Asha about bending the knee.

 

 

And yet, it was important enough to throw a hissy fit over a poorly worded letter. 

Not that I'm particularly surprised, Balon is an idiot. I do not expect much consistency. 

 

Really, I wished Balon siding with Tywin in the way he did would make sense. Honestly, the Lannisters winning the war is one of the things that stretches my suspension of disbelief the most. And no, not because of any biased dislike, but because of how many enemies they had made and how easy those enemies could have found common ground. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You do know that winter and spring in the North are completely different right?

GRRM calls the North's winters cruel we see how everyone is struggling in the North in ADWD and it's not even winter according to them, the Northernmen are the only ones who seem to be handling the snow and winter better than anyone.

Winter would have killed the Ironborn they can't handle the north's winters without help from the Northernmen and the Northermen would have just used it as a way to wage war on them.

 

1. Yeah, and he says that the Ironborn will still be there in Spring. That the Northern people will be so sick of the Ironborn that they willl side with Sansa's son. There is no mention of the Ironborn not lasting during winter.

 

2. I'm not sure your point here. I'm not disputing that the Northern people who live through these harsh winters are not used to it. But, no, they are not the only ones who can handle it.

 

Large tracts of the Stony Shore, Bear Island, Sea Dragon Point, and Cape Kraken have all been held by ironmen at times. Indeed, Cape Kraken, closest to the Iron Islands, has changed hands so many times that many maesters believe its populace to be closer in blood to the ironmen than to Northmen.

 

3. They held castles, their boats could bring in supplies. They could have held it fine as they had done so in the past. 

 

 

And yet, it was important enough to throw a hissy fit over a poorly worded letter. 
 

 

It was hardly a hissy fit.

 

Lord Balon broke the seal and unfolded the parchment. His black eyes flicked back and forth. "So the boy would give me a crown again," he said, "and all I need do is destroy his enemies." His thin lips twisted in a smile.

 

He's perfectly calm and rational, his plan does not change because  of that letter. He was always going to target the vulnerable North.

 

Honestly the Stark fans have built up the North to be this huge superpower that rather than accepting that Balon chose the easier taregt they have to pretend that he is some mad idiot for daring to mess with the Great North. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

[Caspoi]

Sullen@ You don't have to like a character to aknowledge their intelligence. I just don't think that Balon is a good king becuse he has not shown himself a good king in my eyes, it does not have to be "oh but the Starks!" when you argue against someone and you use the bias arhument far too often.

[Frey Pie]

Worse then Joff? I liked the butcher. He was an abolitionist.

The old way is evil but so is Gregor foraging, which amounts to pretty much the same thing. Besides it's not like ironborn never had an empire, they fully manned Harrenhall with most of the riverlands.
I'm not sure if Balon cared for his people, we never got much of a read on him. Regardless he did more for his people then Robb or Stannis, as in not getting them killed.
He was also not a puppet like Joff Tommen Viserys Aegon Renly etc.

If Balon never ascended, would life be better or worse for the ironborn? They lost very few lives and the castles they took, but they gained money, power, a navy, a threat to the whole world.
If any other monarch never put on a hat, thousands of their subjects lives would be intact (exclude Mance, Dany, and I suppose Tommen)

Balon started two wars, lost one and died during another. He got his own two sons killed and the walls of his home pulled down around him because of his idiocy. Even the war in the north caused over a thousand Ironborn deaths. All for the hubris of one man

[Howlin' Howland]

Why limit this topic to the Kings in Westeros?  Frankly Westeros has been badly run for the most part, Braavos on the other hand seems like a very well run city state.  My choice for best king is The Sealord of Braavos Ferrego Antaryon. 

[The Wolves]

 
1. Yeah, and he says that the Ironborn will still be there in Spring. That the Northern people will be so sick of the Ironborn that they willl side with Sansa's son. There is no mention of the Ironborn not lasting during winter.
 
2. I'm not sure your point here. I'm not disputing that the Northern people who live through these harsh winters are not used to it. But, no, they are not the only ones who can handle it.
 
Large tracts of the Stony Shore, Bear Island, Sea Dragon Point, and Cape Kraken have all been held by ironmen at times. Indeed, Cape Kraken, closest to the Iron Islands, has changed hands so many times that many maesters believe its populace to be closer in blood to the ironmen than to Northmen.
 
3. They held castles, their boats could bring in supplies. They could have held it fine as they had done so in the past. 
 
Honestly the Stark fans have built up the North to be this huge superpower that rather than accepting that Balon chose the easier taregt they have to pretend that he is some mad idiot for daring to mess with the Great North. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

1. Tywin don't know shit about the North he doesn't know if they would have still been there in the spring. Plus he's counting on the Nprthernmen to have magically forgot about the Lannisters fighting their king and lords that they'll suddenly welcome a half Lannister child and Lannister soldiers in the North. Tywin is as ignorant about the North as Balon is.

2. They are the only ones who we see can spend years in that type of condition they're equpped for it in all ways. The point the Ironborn wouldn't have lasted in the north with winter coming especially the long night. And what's to say the sea wouldn't frozen up to stop supplies shipping to the Ironborn? Why would Balon spend years shipping food to the Ironborn when his own people would be starving in winter on the Iron Islands?

3. Yeah the Ironborn have held parts of the North before but there is a reason they still don't hold it because the Northernmen always kicked them out which they would have done anyways.

And no it's GRRM who have built up the North by making it almost as big as the other ones combined. He built it up by saying the Starks have controlled it for 8000 years. He built it up by saying not anyone can just hold the North. He built it up by having families like the Starks survive thousands of years in an enviroment like the North. He constantly built it up by stressing how horrible the winters are in the North and how it's cruel in winter. It's GRRM who has shown how no one but the Starks have conquerered the North. Stark fans are not the ones making it into something it's not we are just using what GRRM have been telling us throughout every book

Balon was a mad idiot what exactly did he get from the North but a short lived victory?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. Tywin don't know shit about the North he doesn't know if they would have still been there in the spring. Plus he's counting on the Nprthernmen to have magically forgot about the Lannisters fighting their king and lords that they'll suddenly welcome a half Lannister child and Lannister soldiers in the North. Tywin is as ignorant about the North as Balon is.

Hilarious, When you thought that Tywin had said that the Ironborn would not last during Winter you were using that as evidence. Now that you have found out that eh did not say that you are back to saying he knows shit about it.

 

Tywin and Balon know more about the Norths capabilities than you or I. Balon was pretty bang on when he predicted how easy it would be for his Ironborn to take the coast, Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte.

 

The only thing that Balon got wrong was how tough the North was, eh thought they were much stronger than they actually were.

 

"The lords are gone south with the pup. Those who remained behind are the cravens, old men, and green boys. They will yield or fall, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest shall be ours, forest and field and hall, and we shall make the folk our thralls and salt wives."

 

The North was weaker than even Balon thought, not stronger.

 

2. They are the only ones who we see can spend years in that type of condition they're equpped for it in all ways. The point the Ironborn wouldn't have lasted in the north with winter coming especially the long night. And what's to say the sea wouldn't frozen up to stop supplies shipping to the Ironborn? Why would Balon spend years shipping food to the Ironborn when his own people would be starving in winter on the Iron Islands?

Few can last during a long night. Since Balon didnt know about this long new long night you can hardly blame him for not planning for it. Silly argument to bring up if I'm honest.
 

3. Yeah the Ironborn have held parts of the North before but there is a reason they still don't hold it because the Northernmen always kicked them out which they would have done anyways.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Neither of us know for sure. The Ironborn may have lasted a few years, a few decades or even a few centuries. Robb had been a very, very poor King and severely weakened his people by leaving them defenceless.

 

There is a lot to build on, especially if Balon could make an alliance with the Crown.

 

And no it's GRRM who have built up the North by making it almost as big as the other ones combined. He built it up by saying the Starks have controlled it for 8000 years. He built it up by saying not anyone can just hold the North. He built it up by having families like the Starks survive thousands of years in an enviroment like the North. He constantly built it up by stressing how horrible the winters are in the North and how it's cruel in winter. It's GRRM who has shown how no one but the Starks have conquerered the North. Stark fans are not the ones making it into something it's not we are just using what GRRM have been telling us throughout every book

 

Hooray, more pointless propaganda.

 

 

Balon was a mad idiot what exactly did he get from the North but a short lived victory?

He got a victory, he was unfortunate to die so soon. Unlike Renly and Robb he did not die because he crowned himself. His Kingdom was much stronger when he died then when it was formed. That is pretty successful,

[Frey Pie]

 
Most people Balon because they see Robb as being undefeatable if not for his attack on the North, it's a mix of frustration and PoV bias.
 
Also, I have no doubt he could have held on to what he captured in the North, especially if he decides to make a deal with Tywin, keep his conquests, and bring back the Iron Isles/North under the authority of the Iron Throne.

Ya that's it...not like he was successful due to the insubordination of his son, the civil war in the north and the treachery of the Boltons...must be because everyone loves robb...that's the only explanation...woo Robb...and it's totally easy to keep land tens of times bigger then yours holding a hostile population many times the size of yours with a different religion and culture hundreds and hundreds of miles away from your Hq...but ya pov bias...

[Frey Pie]

Hilarious, When you thought that Tywin had said that the Ironborn would not last during Winter you were using that as evidence. Now that you have found out that eh did not say that you are back to saying he knows shit about it.
 
Tywin and Balon know more about the Norths capabilities than you or I. Balon was pretty bang on when he predicted how easy it would be for his Ironborn to take the coast, Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte.
 
The only thing that Balon got wrong was how tough the North was, eh thought they were much stronger than they actually were.
 
"The lords are gone south with the pup. Those who remained behind are the cravens, old men, and green boys. They will yield or fall, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest shall be ours, forest and field and hall, and we shall make the folk our thralls and salt wives."
 
The North was weaker than even Balon thought, not stronger.

 
Few can last during a long night. Since Balon didnt know about this long new long night you can hardly blame him for not planning for it. Silly argument to bring up if I'm honest.
 
 
Maybe, maybe not. Neither of us know for sure. The Ironborn may have lasted a few years, a few decades or even a few centuries. Robb had been a very, very poor King and severely weakened his people by leaving them defenceless.
 
There is a lot to build on, especially if Balon could make an alliance with the Crown.

 
 
Hooray, more pointless propaganda.
 
 
He got a victory, he was unfortunate to die so soon. Unlike Renly and Robb he did not die because he crowned himself. His Kingdom was much stronger when he died then when it was formed. That is pretty successful,

Robb didn't crown himself. He and Renly were crowned as much as Balon was by their people

[Bobby b's bobby]

Robb didn't crown himself. He and Renly were crowned as much as Balon was by their people

If anybody crowned Robb it was a 7ft drunk angry man. You don't say no to 7ft angry drunk men especially when every other vassal says wow good idea Greatjon.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb didn't crown himself. He and Renly were crowned as much as Balon was by their people

 
Not really. Robb's lords could not agree on Stannis, Renly, Tommen or even peace with Joffrey. After hours of drinking and arguing they crowned Robb. He could have refused, Ned would have. He was caught up in the moment and accepted.
 
No one forced him to accept the Crown. He made a choice.
 

If anybody crowned Robb it was a 7ft drunk angry man. You don't say no to 7ft angry drunk men especially when every other vassal says wow good idea Greatjon.

Except when they threaten to go home and then you quite clearly tell them no.

[Daendrew]

Balerion the Tomcat.

 

Takes the meat from Tywin and gives it to himself.

 

He is the true king of the castle. 

[khal drogon]

Its funny that people give credit for Robert for peaceful reign. Did people forgot the debts he created and the messy situation he left the realm with? His best contribution to the realm is staying away from rule. I am baffled by how he was rated higher by few people.

[Caspoi]

Khal drogom@ Technically he did not even have an entirely peaceful reign, what with the greyjoy rebellion and all.

 

Edit: Not that this is Robert's fault really.

[khal drogon]

Khal drogom@ Technically he did not even have an entirely peaceful reign, what with the greyjoy rebellion and all.
 
Edit: Not that this is Robert's fault really.

Yeah I know.
People give too much credit for him for things which he had no control over.