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Are Cersei and Jaime the children of Aerys?


Rickyhunt

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This is one of the theories I am fully behind. I think it would be perfect karma for Tywin if his one true child was the one he thought was vile and hated. There are also a lot of things going for this theory, too much to fully debunk it....I also like it cos I came up with it myself and when I went to put it on here just got beat...unless it had gone up before and I'd never seem it 😀
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I've never seen a thread on the Tyrion evidence in one place so I would have to search it out. I've always had a small suspicion about him because George purposefully plays with the King Arthur birth saga. Casterly Rock is described like Tintagel where Arthur was born; Aerys's lust for Joanna is just like Uthor's for Igrainne. In the Arthur story, though, Merlin changes Uthor's appearance so everyone thinks he's Igrainne's husband and so does she. So Arthur is born. So to follow that story, Aerys would have to change his appearance to Tywin's to screw Joanna. Too bad there is no glamouring or face changing in the series. Oh wait, there is. Poor Tywin, he knows he wasn't in the castle that night, he knows he didn't screw his wife, but everyone including Joanna tells him that he was. So he can't prove the kid isn't his and even doubts his own senses. And instead of a King Arthur figure, we get a little twisted dwarf (with 'a shadow as tall as a king's') because after all he's Aerys's son. Joke's on you, Tywin.

I don't know why it would matter in the end. And who would know or care? Just heightens the possibility Tyrion might ride a dragon. Anyway, I don't know if Tyrion is a Targ or not, this is just speculation and the King Arthur birth similarities could just be George playing with us, but aside from Cersei's new interest in wildfyre, I see nothing in either her or Jaime's stories to suggest they might be Aerys's.
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Cersei and Jaime's mother Joanna was a Lannister in her own right, and could have passed on the Lannister traits.

 

Tywin not suspecting Jaime and Cersei's parentage doesn't prove anything. The fact that he did suspect Tyrion's parentage kinda undercuts your second paragraph.

How so? Assuming it's true, that suspicion was part of what caused him to loathe Tyrion, probably more so than him being a dwarf. Call him an unloving father, but he did care about Jaime and Cersei. He didn't hold them in contempt while growing up.

 

In regards to their physical appearance, with how the genetic lottery seems to work in ASOIAF and Martin's methods of giving clues to someone's ancestry, there would probably be some hints in their looks. The fact that they look like "pure" Lannisters speaks against the likelihood of Targ ancestry. Tyrion's possible Targ ancestry is betrayed in his physical traits. 

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I've never seen a thread on the Tyrion evidence in one place so I would have to search it out. I've always had a small suspicion about him because George purposefully plays with the King Arthur birth saga. Casterly Rock is described like Tintagel where Arthur was born; Aerys's lust for Joanna is just like Uthor's for Igrainne. In the Arthur story, though, Merlin changes Uthor's appearance so everyone thinks he's Igrainne's husband and so does she. So Arthur is born. So to follow that story, Aerys would have to change his appearance to Tywin's to screw Joanna. Too bad there is no glamouring or face changing in the series. Oh wait, there is. Poor Tywin, he knows he wasn't in the castle that night, he knows he didn't screw his wife, but everyone including Joanna tells him that he was. So he can't prove the kid isn't his and even doubts his own senses. And instead of a King Arthur figure, we get a little twisted dwarf (with 'a shadow as tall as a king's') because after all he's Aerys's son. Joke's on you, Tywin.

I don't know why it would matter in the end. And who would know or care? Just heightens the possibility Tyrion might ride a dragon. Anyway, I don't know if Tyrion is a Targ or not, this is just speculation and the King Arthur birth similarities could just be George playing with us, but aside from Cersei's new interest in wildfyre, I see nothing in either her or Jaime's stories to suggest they might be Aerys's.

His hair that is white-blond rather than golden.

His obsession with dragons. I think he may have dreamed about them too but I'm not sure.

His love of burned meat.

His love of spicy food.

His deformity (a few Targ babies were deformed too).

Tywin's comments like "since I can't prove you're not mine."

The line about him standing "as tall as a king."

TWOIAF having--deliberately added by GRRM, mind you--that Joanna Lannister was at court for a celebration the year before Tyrion's birth.

 

There's probably more but that's all I remember at the moment.

 

Tyrion will ride a dragon.  That's set up from the beginning.  It's also been set up that the people in the story think that only Targs can ride dragons.  So it will matter quite a bit when Tyrion saddles up Viserion (or Rhaegal) and goes cruising.  It will change the way people think of him, treat him, speak of him.  It will make a huge difference to Dany in particular who thinks she has no family left.  And it will be of great importance for Tyrion himself.  He'll wonder if Tywin really had some right to hate him and treat him so badly, he'll wonder if he was the product of rape, he'll wonder if his mother even wanted him, he'll wonder if he's going to go mad like Aerys did...  So it will matter to the characters.  The beauty of it is that all of that can happen even with Tyrion being 100% Tywin's son.  

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How so? Assuming it's true, that suspicion was part of what caused him to loathe Tyrion, probably more so than him being a dwarf. Call him an unloving father, but he did care about Jaime and Cersei. He didn't hold them in contempt while growing up.

 

In regards to their physical appearance, with how the genetic lottery seems to work in ASOIAF and Martin's methods of giving clues to someone's ancestry, there would probably be some hints in their looks. The fact that they look like "pure" Lannisters speaks against the likelihood of Targ ancestry. Tyrion's possible Targ ancestry is betrayed in his physical traits. 

Like all those Targ traits Jon inherited?

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No, because it's rather silly to say that it would somehow ruin the dynamic between them and the tragedy of their situation. Or that it would make Tywin's treatment of Tyrion justified, which is another one that gets thrown out sometimes.

 

In my opinion it would just make Tyrion and Tywin's relationship a bit more complex by adding a layer.  It changes the dynamic, but it doesn't ruin, cheapen, or lessen it in any way.  I have this crazy thing where I trust the author to be able to write any twist in a way that works and adds to the story.  Odd, I know, but I've always been quirky. ;)

 

I'll go with conditional trust in the author for now.

 

I trusted him well enough for the first 4 books.  After that, to me it appears that he either took a leave from his senses or had no idea whatsoever as to how to end his own story.

 

What do you think about that ?

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I'll go with conditional trust in the author for now.

 

I trusted him well enough for the first 4 books.  After that, to me it appears that he either took a leave from his senses or had no idea whatsoever as to how to end his own story.

 

What do you think about that ?

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Meereen was tricky and I think he was trying to find the best way to cover what was going on without giving away all the things that Dany and Barristan wouldn't know about.

 

Also, as my dad thinks, it is possible that the story got away from GRRM for a while.

 

Speaking for myself the middle is usually a lot harder than the end.  I know where the story is going, it's getting there that can be difficult.

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It kinda explains why despite being siblings they are so attracted to each other. I've always considered the Targaryens to have very messed up minds if they genuinely find their siblings attractive to the point of wanting to do the nasty with them. It seems no other family has such brother/sister intimacy besides the dragons.

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It kinda explains why despite being siblings they are so attracted to each other. I've always considered the Targaryens to have very messed up minds if they genuinely find their siblings attractive to the point of wanting to do the nasty with them. It seems no other family has such brother/sister intimacy besides the dragons.

 

Incest prohibitions are a learned thing, Kaibaman.

 

Do you think for one second that a male puppy will not mount his littermate female sibling if given the opportunity ?

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Cersei's fascination with wildfyre and her sexual arousal when she burned the tower of the hand. Aerys also got sexual arousal from burning people. I think Cersei and Jaime are more likely than Tyrion.
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Incest prohibitions are a learned thing, Kaibaman.

Not really. There are natural defenses from close relatives falling in love with each other. Although, as the nature does not recognize whether two people are closely related, the defense mechanisms apply to people who grew up together, covering vast majority of siblings.

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Not really.  He still thought Tywin was his father when he pulled the trigger, or whatever it is crossbows have.  And he's still a blood relative so the kinslayer thing still applies, just to a slightly lesser degree.

 

And it also would have the added irony of Tyrion killing Jaime's father while Jaime killed Tyrion's.

But the "lesser degree" means everything to this conversation. It takes everything away from Tyrion killing Tywin, and to say otherwise is just plain wrong. You yourself indirectly admit that this takes away from the death. Yes at the time, Tyrion thinks he's killing his own father, but it lets him completely off the hook from the aftermath of the situation.

 

And if anything, if Jaime is the Mad King's son, it adds some things to Jaime killing him. It adds the irony that both Tyrion and Jaime kill their own fathers (much more so than the other way around), and Jaime actually obeys the Mad King's final order to him. It also confirms Tywin's blindness to his children and adds irony that his only son was the one he brutally mistreated. I don't think Cersei and Jaime being Aerys children would destroy their relationship with Tywin, but Tyrion it would.

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His hair that is white-blond rather than golden.

His obsession with dragons. I think he may have dreamed about them too but I'm not sure.

His love of burned meat.

His love of spicy food.

His deformity (a few Targ babies were deformed too).

Tywin's comments like "since I can't prove you're not mine."

The line about him standing "as tall as a king."

TWOIAF having--deliberately added by GRRM, mind you--that Joanna Lannister was at court for a celebration the year before Tyrion's birth.

Here's the smoking gun though: these aren't remotely character traits. They're just simply what Tyrion looks like and a few things a bunch of other people besides Targaryens prefer. If you make Tyrion a Targayen, then you shit all over his character traits, and thus character. Aside from liking dragons (which are just cool), he doesn't have a single Targaryen character trait.

 

While I don't think Jaime and Cersei are Aerys children, they actually do have Targaryen traits in their characters. Both like to think that they're perfect Lannisters, but every person who knows them knows they aren't true Lannisters in the same way Tyrion is.

 

I mean, shit, Arya too is obsessed with dragons, but I haven't seen any theory saying she's a Targaryen. It's simple why dragons would appeal to Tyrion (as you seem to agree): He was short and always shat upon, but he knew from his youth if he had a dragon, no one would look down on him again. It's really as simple as that.

 

It's also been set up that the people in the story think that only Targs can ride dragons. 

 

No this hasn't been set up. It's just that Targaryens have had an monopoly on dragons. No one had the opportunity in the past to do it. I think Tyrion will ride as well, but if you gave me the choice between him riding a dragon and not being Tywin's son; and him not riding a dragon and being Tywin's son, then it's a simple choice: he doesn't ride the dragon.

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His hair that is white-blond rather than golden.
His obsession with dragons. I think he may have dreamed about them too but I'm not sure.
His love of burned meat.
His love of spicy food.
His deformity (a few Targ babies were deformed too).
Tywin's comments like "since I can't prove you're not mine."
The line about him standing "as tall as a king."
TWOIAF having--deliberately added by GRRM, mind you--that Joanna Lannister was at court for a celebration the year before Tyrion's birth.
 
There's probably more but that's all I remember at the moment.
 
Tyrion will ride a dragon.  That's set up from the beginning.  It's also been set up that the people in the story think that only Targs can ride dragons.  So it will matter quite a bit when Tyrion saddles up Viserion (or Rhaegal) and goes cruising.  It will change the way people think of him, treat him, speak of him.  It will make a huge difference to Dany in particular who thinks she has no family left.  And it will be of great importance for Tyrion himself.  He'll wonder if Tywin really had some right to hate him and treat him so badly, he'll wonder if he was the product of rape, he'll wonder if his mother even wanted him, he'll wonder if he's going to go mad like Aerys did...  So it will matter to the characters.  The beauty of it is that all of that can happen even with Tyrion being 100% Tywin's son.


I do like the way you think, Lady B.
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Here's the smoking gun though: these aren't remotely character traits. They're just simply what Tyrion looks like and a few things a bunch of other people besides Targaryens prefer. If you make Tyrion a Targayen, then you shit all over his character traits, and thus character. Aside from liking dragons (which are just cool), he doesn't have a single Targaryen character trait.

I myself don't think that Tyrion is Aerys' son but you don't have to have any of your character traits to be similar to you parents' to be their son. Lacking Targaryen character traits means nothing to Tyrion's true parentage, as well as having similar character traits means nothing to who's child a person is.

And if anything, if Jaime is the Mad King's son, it adds some things to Jaime killing him. It adds the irony that both Tyrion and Jaime kill their own fathers (much more so than the other way around), and Jaime actually obeys the Mad King's final order to him. 

It also takes away some things from Jaime killing him. A huge, probably even the main part of Jaime's arc is about what constitutes honor and how it's impossible to keep all the vows you give. Jaime killing the king he swore to protect is one of the main character conflicts of Jaime's arc and is part of a big theme about honor of the whole ASOIAF. Aerys being Jaime's father diverts the attention from this theme, Jaime being the kingslayer would give place to him being his father's killer. Jaime's main source of conflict would suddenly be of second importance for no reason whatsoever.

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