Tywins main excuse for never being married again?

[Wavey Sauce]

He is all about extending the family name, doing ones duty to the Lannister name, Like trying to force Cersei to wed Loras to extend Lannister ties to the reach. Yet with all the time that passed from his dead wife he never remarried once? Yes I know he loved her a lot, but way he treats everything else that doesnt and shouldnt matter.

 

Unless that whole theory about him not being fertile is true I dont see the reason

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why does he need an excuse? He has done his duty, he has produced heirs as have his brothers and sister. There are plenty of Lannister heirs.

 

Marrying Loras is a TV show invention. If it is the TV show you are interested in there is a separate forum for that. In the books he does try to broker another marriage for Cersei with Willas being one of the possibilities. It is just common sense as remarrying her and separating her from Jaime puts a lid on the rumours their affair.  She has no one but herself to blame for that.

[Lady Sharya]

Because he'd have to search too far below his holiness to find an agreeable house that wouldn't have the benifit having any heirs to CR but would risk the heredity of dwarfism?

[Beorn Snow]

He is all about extending the family name, doing ones duty to the Lannister name, Like trying to force Cersei to wed Loras to extend Lannister ties to the reach. Yet with all the time that passed from his dead wife he never remarried once? Yes I know he loved her a lot, but way he treats everything else that doesnt and shouldnt matter.

 

Unless that whole theory about him not being fertile is true I dont see the reason

 

Fertility does not really enter into it. A marriage secures an alliance, even if it is just to one of his bannerman´s daughters it will still make that bannerman more loyal and more likely to send more troops when asked for.

 

Why does he need an excuse? He has done his duty, he has produced heirs as have his brothers and sister. There are plenty of Lannister heirs.

 

Marrying Loras is a TV show invention. If it is the TV show you are interested in there is a separate forum for that. In the books he does try to broker another marriage for Cersei with Willas being one of the possibilities. It is just common sense as remarrying her and separating her from Jaime puts a lid on the rumours their affair.  She has no one but herself to blame for that.

 

Yes. Cersei has herself to blame for. As said before, it´s not so much about the heirs, it´s also about the alliances... although it is preferable not to pull a Walder Frey and have too many children to handle. However, a lord paramount such as Tywin could easily have a few more sons and still have decent positions for him to put them into.

 

And actually ... isn´t Tywin kind of in need of an heir? He doesn´t want Tyrion and is in a denial about Jaime and Cersei I think we can all agree would spell the ruin of the family.

 

So if he doesn´t want Kevan and his sons to inherit he should consider re-marrying. The only question is, who´d be a suitable match.

 

Ironically I´d think someone like Jeyne Westerling could have fit the bill if we think about it. But marrying someone in the Reach might be politically better ... the Tyrrels already have problems with their bannermen, the Baratheons did this with the Florents to undermine Tyrrel authority and were somewhat succesful.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin doesn't need more kids, and if he wants to make new alliances he can marry off his children/nieces/nephews. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And actually ... isn´t Tywin kind of in need of an heir? He doesn´t want Tyrion and is in a denial about Jaime and Cersei I think we can all agree would spell the ruin of the family.

 

Tyrion would still be ahead of any new sons and daughters.

 

The only time he gave up on Jaime being his heir was when he was captured by Robb. Before that and after that he always considered that he'd be able to influence Jaime to become his heir once again. Re-marrying would possibly be conceding defeat to that and allowing Aerys his victory.

 

Tywin had never disinherited Tyrion. At one point he was his heir.

 

"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a . . . bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left.

 

Unfortunately for Tyrion he screwed up. He threatened both of Tywins grandsons lives infront of witnesses, Tommen over the safety of a prostitute. For obvious reasons this pissed Tywin off.

 

 

So if he doesn´t want Kevan and his sons to inherit he should consider re-marrying. The only question is, who´d be a suitable match.

 

I see this repeated a lot and I don't see much evidence in the books for this. Had things turned out differently Tywin would be the nephew and cousin to the Lords of the Westerlands as his father had two older brothers. This is a family a few thousand years old, history does not care whether a son, nephew or cousin inherits. This is not an unusual occurrence in medieval times what with the regularity of death.

 

Tywin himself was the cupbearer for Aegon V and he sent two of his nephews to serve Robert in a similar manner. He would have known that there was a real possibility of one of them one day inheriting.

[Wavey Sauce]

Why does he need an excuse? He has done his duty, he has produced heirs as have his brothers and sister. There are plenty of Lannister heirs.

 

Marrying Loras is a TV show invention. If it is the TV show you are interested in there is a separate forum for that. In the books he does try to broker another marriage for Cersei with Willas being one of the possibilities. It is just common sense as remarrying her and separating her from Jaime puts a lid on the rumours their affair.  She has no one but herself to blame for that.

 

Cersei produced as many kids as Tywin has..................why does she need to keep going

 

 

edit- I forgot the tv show is the loras part, but he still was looking for possible suitor for her in the books and she wasnt having it

[Fat Mac]

Because Tywin loved Joanna, and probably didn't want to call another woman his wife. He had three heirs, a brother with four of his own, a sister with 4 as well and on and on. The Lannister name was not in trouble so Tywin was not going to marry for political reasons.

[The Wolves]

Tywin doesn't need more kids, and if he wants to make new alliances he can marry off his children/nieces/nephews. 

Tywin did horribly at making alliances it's very telling how the Lannisters don't have many marriages outside of the Westerlands.

[Fat Mac]

Tywin did horribly at making alliances it's very telling how the Lannisters don't have many marriages outside of the Westerlands.

Well that one Lannister married a Baratheon, who became a King, so Tywins doing better than most

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm curious what would have happened if Tyrion had never been arrested/accused of regicide but Tywin had still kicked the bucket. Tyron had never been publicly disowned, so what if he pressed his claim? Cersei would obviously protest but Jaime would probably be supportive. What would Kevan think?

 

 

 

I see this repeated a lot and I don't see much evidence in the books for this. Had things turned out differently Tywin would be the nephew and cousin to the Lords of the Westerlands as his father had two older brothers. This is a family a few thousand years old, history does not care whether a son, nephew or cousin inherits. This is not an unusual occurrence in medieval times what with the regularity of death.

 

Tywin himself was the cupbearer for Aegon V and he sent two of his nephews to serve Robert in a similar manner. He would have known that there was a real possibility of one of them one day inheriting.

 

I think Tywin was a bit more set on Jaime inheriting than you let on here. He clearly was holding out hope that Jaime would choose Casterly Rock over the white cloak even after their angry exchange in ASOS. Otherwise he would have named a new heir rather than leave the question open (a mistake in retrospect, since it allowed Cersei to grab the Rock)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Cersei produced as many kids as Tywin has..................why does she need to keep going

 

 

Did you not read my post?

 

There are rumours about the legitimacy of the king, Prince and Princess. This was done to quell them.

 

"You will marry and you will breed. Every child you birth makes Stannis more a liar."

 

That was just one of the reasons, obviously he could not share the other one with Cersei but he wanted her away from the young King(s) as we later learn from Kevan.

 

"I am the regent," she reminded him.

"You were. Tywin did not intend that you continue in that role. He told me of his plans to send you back to the Rock and find a new husband for you."

Cersei could feel her anger rising. "He spoke of such, yes. And I told him it was not my wish to wed again."

Her uncle was unmoved. "If you are resolved against another marriage, I will not force it on you. As to the other, though . . . you are the Lady of Casterly Rock now. Your place is there."

How dare you? she wanted to scream. Instead, she said, "I am also the Queen Regent. My place is with my son."

"Your father thought not."

"My father is dead."

"To my grief, and the woe of all the realm. Open your eyes and look about you, Cersei. The kingdom is in ruins. Tywin might have been able to set matters aright, but . . ."

"I shall set matters aright!" Cersei softened her tone. "With your help, Uncle. If you will serve me as faithfully as you served my father - "

"You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir."

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin did horribly at making alliances it's very telling how the Lannisters don't have many marriages outside of the Westerlands.

 

 

Well that one Lannister married a Baratheon, who became a King, so Tywins doing better than most

 

It's bizarre how people just ignore this. Tywin made the best marriage alliance possible in Westeros.

 

And while he didn't propose the Joffrey-Margery marriage, he worked with Mace to arrange her marriage to Tommen. 

[ManderlysPies]

Tywin did horribly at making alliances it's very telling how the Lannisters don't have many marriages outside of the Westerlands.

Well, he manage to make his daughter Queen, Lancel got to become Lord of Darry through marriage and Joy is being married into a noble house. Although it wasn't his idea, Genna is the Lady of Riverrun.

Tywin was pretty good at marriages.

[falcotron]

So if he doesn´t want Kevan and his sons to inherit he should consider re-marrying. The only question is, who´d be a suitable match.

Remarrying and producing more heirs actually makes his problems worse, not better.

It would make it much harder to convince Jaime to give up his position on the KG, marry, and take over Casterly Rock. It's already hard enough to argue, "Look, it's either you, a woman, or a dwarf who no one wants to marry, so do your duty to the family". Imagine trying to argue, "Look, it's either you, a woman, a dwarf who no one wants to marry, or one of these two fine boys who've spent their entire lives at the Rock and understand the West even better than you who have a stack of marriage proposals as high as your head".

It would also force the question of disinheriting Tyrion. He's only managed to avoid that through delusion and self-deception: if Jaime is going to be his heir, it doesn't matter if Tyrion is disinherited. But if Tyrion's younger brother is important, then Tyrion has to be taken out of the succession definitively.

And finally, having to find positions to give to extra sons means having fewer positions to give to his brothers and nephews. He needs to keep them loyal, because they're the only real threat to him in the West. Westerosi history seems to have far fewer rebellions by younger brothers than any medieval European country's history, but surely it's still a problem people think about. Walder Frey's problems with his descendants aren't qualitatively different than anyone else's, just a little more extreme.

Cersei produced as many kids as Tywin has..................why does she need to keep going

Because she's a woman, not a man.

Let's say Cersei marries Willas. That ties the Lannisters and Tyrells together equally. If they then have a kid, Willas's heir is bound to the Lannisters, because he's half-Lannister, without the opposite being true. And that heir is no threat to any Lannister succession.

Let's say Tywin marries Margy. That ties the Lannisters and Tyrells together equally. If they have a kid, he's is bound to the Tyrells, because he's half Tyrell, without the opposite being true. And he's a threat to inherit over Jaime.

This is why, once you've got a solid heir and maybe a backup, daughters are much more valuable than sons.

Or, put another way: you sell daughters; you pay for daughters-in-law.

[The Wolves]

Well that one Lannister married a Baratheon, who became a King, so Tywins doing better than most

Jon Arryn's dumb ass proposed that matched for some dumb reason and than Lyanna died and voila!! A Lannister/Bartheon match that has ruined the realm and possibly the world.

But beyond that House Lannister has no good relationships with any house except their bannermen at the beginning of AGOT.

Besides the Lannister/Baratheon marriage the Lannisters have no other alliances beyond the Westerlands.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Besides the Lannister/Baratheon marriage the Lannisters have no other alliances beyond the Westerlands.

 

Would you say the same about the Tyrells and Martells? They were in the same position in AGOT (and now they are bound to the Lannisters through marriage)

[Fat Mac]

Jon Arryn's dumb ass proposed that matched for some dumb reason and than Lyanna died and voila!! A Lannister/Bartheon match that has ruined the realm and possibly the world.

But beyond that House Lannister has no good relationships with any house except their bannermen at the beginning of AGOT.

Besides the Lannister/Baratheon marriage the Lannisters have no other alliances beyond the Westerlands.

And besides the Stark/Tully marriage the Starks don't have one outside the North. Until Margaery married Renly the Tyrells didn't have any outside the Reach. The Martell don't have any outside Dorne.

It's important to connect to your bannermen, and more often than not a Great family will marry within their region. Tywin connected his house very well tbh. He got the first Lannister queen the united 7k had ever seen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I think Tywin was a bit more set on Jaime inheriting than you let on here. He clearly was holding out hope that Jaime would choose Casterly Rock over the white cloak even after their angry exchange in ASOS. Otherwise he would have named a new heir rather than leave the question open (a mistake in retrospect, since it allowed Cersei to grab the Rock)

I agree with that, but he's not a simpleton. All three of his uncles died before their time on the battlefield and two of his brothers are (apparently) dead.As is his wife. The possibility that Jaime would die before him, considering his warrior status, is something that Tywin would have considered.

Jaime, while they both lived, was always his heir. Tyrion was always an outsider, had he married, produced healthy children and only used whores for recreational purposes rather than romantic he may have had a better shot. Then there would be Tommen or his nephews.

I don't think he put all his eggs in one Jaime shaped basket though that was by far his primary choice.

 

Besides the Lannister/Baratheon marriage the Lannisters have no other alliances beyond the Westerlands.

Genna is married to a Frey. Tyrek to Lady Hayford. Margot Lannister to Lord Peake. Cleos to a Darry.

 

Daven was arranged to marry the only daughter of Lord Redwyne before the Red Wedding and we have unknown matches for Davens siblings, aunts and cousins.

[The Wolves]

And besides the Stark/Tully marriage the Starks don't have one outside the North. Until Margaery married Renly the Tyrells didn't have any outside the Reach. The Martell don't have any outside Dorne.

It's important to connect to your bannermen, and more often than not a Great family will marry within their region. Tywin connected his house very well tbh. He got the first Lannister queen the united 7k had ever seen.

Actually no the Starks have some alliances in the Vale from old marriages that they remembered and Ned making friends while being fostered.

And the difference between the Lannisters, Martells, and Tyrells and that people actually tried making alliances with house Martell and Tyrell outside of their regions its always Tywin trying to make alliances and getting shut down. Notice Tywin getting shit down with offering Tyrion up and Cersei to Willas also I don't think Mace would have let Maegery marry Jaime a cripple and a oathbreaker.

And Tywin made an alliance with the King not house Baratheon you see how the Stormlanders are quick to jump to Renly and Stannis before Robert's "heirs"

Tywin does marriages he doesn't have any alliances.