Are there any Female others?

[Rickyhunt]

I was thinking about the original nights king who loved a woman who looks very similar to the others. We haven't seen any female others and we know from the show that children are turned into others. If there were female others then they wouldn't really need to physically change humans into others to reproduce. So the original woman from the nights king story was she an other? Did the women die out? What you think is going on here?

[mediterraneo]

Is being "turned" the only way to become an "other"?
Is turning people into an "other" a way to reproduce, or is it a modification to allow you to survive in a harsh environment, to be up to some kind of needed duty?
Who are the "Others"? And what do they want?

[Lointain]

Yes, but they are a bit frigid.
And that is the main reason of the Other Invasion: the men are looking for hot women.
:D

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

Of course.

 

All the white walkers are male though.

[Lady Barbrey]

We just don't know. Old Nan says wildling women lay with the Others and hybrids were the result. Perhaps the Nights Queen was a hybrid herself rather than an Other. I do suspect hybrids were seeded north of the Wall in that encounter, that Bael the Bard came from that line (as did Craster), and when he stole the Stark king's daughter and got her with child, something icy entered the Stark line. I don't think someone can be 'turned' like Craster's sons unless that 'otherness' is already there. But this is pure speculation until we get more info.

[falcotron]

There are already multiple threads on this. This one is the one I remember best, but there was another good one around the same time. I'd suggest reading the existing answers before repeating them all, unless you can do it more entertainingly than CodeNym.

Among the possibilities I remember:

• The Others have a hive-insect-like structure, with one queen and a bunch of male warriors.
• For all we know, they're an amazon race and all we've seen are females.
• Their descriptions seem pretty androgynous; maybe they don't have the same sexual dimorphism as humans, so the Wildlings and Watch just assume they're all male.
• They can have females, but damn Craster keeps only giving them boys, so they have a severe sex imbalance, which makes them even more dependent on Craster-baby-conversion rather than sex, so it just keeps getting worse, and now Heart of Always Winter Needs Women.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Conversely, but have we actually seen any male Others? Do they have something, do something that would allow us to identify them as males? Like, dunno, urinate standing up, or get lost and refuse to ask for directions? I know that human observers tend to use masculine pronouns, but it's not as if they actually know much about the Others.

[Scootaloo Stark]

You shouldn't forget that we've only seen their warriors. Maybe the females don't come to fight.

If they looked at the Night's Watch or some house's army, they could also conclude that there are no female humans.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I was thinking about the original nights king who loved a woman who looks very similar to the others. We haven't seen any female others and we know from the show that children are turned into others. If there were female others then they wouldn't really need to physically change humans into others to reproduce. So the original woman from the nights king story was she an other? Did the women die out? What you think is going on here?

We do not know that the Others we've seen have been male really.

 

GRRM very carefully used the word "it" instead of him or her, and "its" instead of his or hers in the Prologue to AGoT.

[Lady Barbrey]

We do not know that the Others we've seen have been male really.
 
GRRM very carefully used the word "it" instead of him or her, and "its" instead of his or hers in the Prologue to AGoT.

I think I read somewhere that GRRM said he doesn't like the idea of opponents in this clash having the same kind of magic. However, I don't think that precludes the idea the Others might be somewhat like dragons, able to become female or male in the right circumstances. They are turning only male babies of Craster's right now though, but that might also be because they want more 'Other-seeds' (as opposed to dragon seeds) so the girls are being reserved for reproduction.

[Ser Creighton]

We don't know what they are, I generally assume they are males, but for a couple primary reasons. Crasters sons, and the stories of them hunting maidens.

 

The night queen seems to point to the one single female Other if she in fact was one. Had a theory on her awhile back not sure if it meant anything but, the basic idea is that Martin mentions her for a reason, and the story of the Night King. One reason is the parallels with Stannis and Mel. But there may have been another obscure clue.

 

Sometimes understanding things in the series can be as simple as understanding perspective, and applying it. For me I follow cyclical nature which is a primary them in the series.

 

Yiggy once gave a great example of this, Jon told her he was from the north and she basically replied not from where she was standing or grew up.

 

So you take something like this "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" Now either the planet is going to spin backwards which I doubt, everyone would die. But this is actually a daily occurrence and just depends on your perspective. Essos is considered the east and Westeros is considered the west. So from that perspective when ever the sun is rising in westeros it is setting in Essos. Rising in the west and setting in the east.

 

So sometimes I look for the perspective in a prophecy. And yes this getting to the Night Queen I just wanted an example of perspective and prophecy.

 

"Looking into several rooms in a hallway in the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees several scenes, some which appear to be of the past, some of the present and some of the future. The first of this is a woman being savaged by four little rat-like men."

 

"The second is a room filled with savagely slaughtered corpses which appear to have been attending a feast. A dead man with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king might hold a sceptre, sits at a throne, his eyes looking at Dany with mute appeal."

 

"The third room shows her old home in Braavos and Ser Willem Darry."

 

"The fourth shows an old man on a barbed throne, saying to another man below him "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," and "Let him be king of ashes."

 

"The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."."

 

Now take a good look at those. It's very important, it's often said the first vision of the female and the little rat men, is Westeros and the rat men represent 4 of the 5 kings. I heavily disagree with this. My opinion is that everyone is looking at the visions the wrong way. I have found that if you cross reference prophecies, you will find connections, prophecies that help explain prophecies.

 

The reason it's wrong about Westeros, which really suddenly it's suppose to be a female figure and 4 of the Warlock rat like servants are ravaging it is because that is nothing more than an unexplained leap of faith. It's umm Mother earth and the rat guys are taking over? Really?

 

It's just being looked at the wrong, I mean that literally. Start with the last Vision they are in chronological order, the proper way to view these visions is to turn around. Which is exactly what Dany does. She is given instructions. Always take the the first door to your right (this will become a perspective lesson from the author, just like Yiggy gave Jon) And the Warlock tells her don't you ever do the opposite, "leaving and coming, it is the same."

 

So Dany takes and drinks the shade of the evening. Shade of the evening comes from the Shade of the evening tree, which is black and blue and the exact inverse parallel to the Weirwood tree, Red and White. The colors exist as polarities to each other within the series.

 

So if you follow Dany down the very long hall, some of the doors are open and you get those visions, all the doors are on the left. For what seems like hours she walks. Till she gets to the end of the hall. But there is no door on the right. All the doors are on the left, open or closed they are on the left. And what comes behind her, the Darkness, the Darkness is coming from behind her, the light is going out. The Darkness is coming it's behind her right?

 

I don't think so.

 

"the first door on the right, he said, always the first door on the right. The first door on the right..."

 

"It came to her suddenly... is the last door on the left!"

 

It's about perspective all you have to do is turn around. "To go forward you must go back." You are literally told by the author to turn around. If you do then the visions, come in a chronological order.

 

1. The birth of Aegon

2. The Mad King during Roberts Rebllion

3. Dany's home when she was a child

4. The Red wedding

5. The women.

 

Now remember what I said about the parallel between the Shade tree and the Weirwood. Well do you actually think there is a huge difference between Little rat people who bring you the blue magic elixir for visions, and the little squirrel people who bring you the red elixir for visions? I surmise that this first vision is actually the last vision, and it is the Night Queen. In this little journey with Dany, first was last, it all came down to perspective, which way she was standing, just like Yiggy did with Jon. Martin enforces this idea throughout the series. Perspective, perception, the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, the effect of inversion in fact Arthur and Ned both state this at Jon's birth place. And so it begins, no now it ends. If your a wheel the universal symbol of the a cycle, then your doing both at the same time. In fact the rotation of a wheel goes forward, backward, up and down all at the same time. 

[Joe Pesci]

I hope there are, or else they can't ever say that they are "brothers from another other"?

[mywintersong]

We don't know what they are, I generally assume they are males, but for a couple primary reasons. Crasters sons, and the stories of them hunting maidens.
 
The night queen seems to point to the one single female Other if she in fact was one. Had a theory on her awhile back not sure if it meant anything but, the basic idea is that Martin mentions her for a reason, and the story of the Night King. One reason is the parallels with Stannis and Mel. But there may have been another obscure clue.
 
Sometimes understanding things in the series can be as simple as understanding perspective, and applying it. For me I follow cyclical nature which is a primary them in the series.
 
Yiggy once gave a great example of this, Jon told her he was from the north and she basically replied not from where she was standing or grew up.
 
So you take something like this "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" Now either the planet is going to spin backwards which I doubt, everyone would die. But this is actually a daily occurrence and just depends on your perspective. Essos is considered the east and Westeros is considered the west. So from that perspective when ever the sun is rising in westeros it is setting in Essos. Rising in the west and setting in the east.
 
So sometimes I look for the perspective in a prophecy. And yes this getting to the Night Queen I just wanted an example of perspective and prophecy.
 
"Looking into several rooms in a hallway in the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees several scenes, some which appear to be of the past, some of the present and some of the future. The first of this is a woman being savaged by four little rat-like men."
 
"The second is a room filled with savagely slaughtered corpses which appear to have been attending a feast. A dead man with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king might hold a sceptre, sits at a throne, his eyes looking at Dany with mute appeal."
 
"The third room shows her old home in Braavos and Ser Willem Darry."
 
"The fourth shows an old man on a barbed throne, saying to another man below him "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," and "Let him be king of ashes."
 
"The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."."
 
Now take a good look at those. It's very important, it's often said the first vision of the female and the little rat men, is Westeros and the rat men represent 4 of the 5 kings. I heavily disagree with this. My opinion is that everyone is looking at the visions the wrong way. I have found that if you cross reference prophecies, you will find connections, prophecies that help explain prophecies.
 
The reason it's wrong about Westeros, which really suddenly it's suppose to be a female figure and 4 of the Warlock rat like servants are ravaging it is because that is nothing more than an unexplained leap of faith. It's umm Mother earth and the rat guys are taking over? Really?
 
It's just being looked at the wrong, I mean that literally. Start with the last Vision they are in chronological order, the proper way to view these visions is to turn around. Which is exactly what Dany does. She is given instructions. Always take the the first door to your right (this will become a perspective lesson from the author, just like Yiggy gave Jon) And the Warlock tells her don't you ever do the opposite, "leaving and coming, it is the same."
 
So Dany takes and drinks the shade of the evening. Shade of the evening comes from the Shade of the evening tree, which is black and blue and the exact inverse parallel to the Weirwood tree, Red and White. The colors exist as polarities to each other within the series.
 
So if you follow Dany down the very long hall, some of the doors are open and you get those visions, all the doors are on the left. For what seems like hours she walks. Till she gets to the end of the hall. But there is no door on the right. All the doors are on the left, open or closed they are on the left. And what comes behind her, the Darkness, the Darkness is coming from behind her, the light is going out. The Darkness is coming it's behind her right?
 
I don't think so.
 
"the first door on the right, he said, always the first door on the right. The first door on the right..."
 
"It came to her suddenly... is the last door on the left!"
 
It's about perspective all you have to do is turn around. "To go forward you must go back." You are literally told by the author to turn around. If you do then the visions, come in a chronological order.
 
1. The birth of Aegon
2. The Mad King during Roberts Rebllion
3. Dany's home when she was a child
4. The Red wedding
5. The women.
 
Now remember what I said about the parallel between the Shade tree and the Weirwood. Well do you actually think there is a huge difference between Little rat people who bring you the blue magic elixir for visions, and the little squirrel people who bring you the red elixir for visions? I surmise that this first vision is actually the last vision, and it is the Night Queen. In this little journey with Dany, first was last, it all came down to perspective, which way she was standing, just like Yiggy did with Jon. Martin enforces this idea throughout the series. Perspective, perception, the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, the effect of inversion in fact Arthur and Ned both state this at Jon's birth place. And so it begins, no now it ends. If your a wheel the universal symbol of the a cycle, then your doing both at the same time. In fact the rotation of a wheel goes forward, backward, up and down all at the same time.

I like everything you've said about perspective here. It is so simple when explained in this way, I am certain you are right.

I'm not sure that I follow what you mean about the last (first) vision with the rats. Why can't the woman he Westeros? Four rats, four present kings. A lady it's a common depiction of a kingdom IRL. What woman would you think the rat-alternative-earth-singers would be worrying?

[Delight]

The Night's Queen could of been one. Then again, I believe she is referred as a wight in the myth. 

[Lady Barbrey]

We don't know what they are, I generally assume they are males, but for a couple primary reasons. Crasters sons, and the stories of them hunting maidens.
 
The night queen seems to point to the one single female Other if she in fact was one. Had a theory on her awhile back not sure if it meant anything but, the basic idea is that Martin mentions her for a reason, and the story of the Night King. One reason is the parallels with Stannis and Mel. But there may have been another obscure clue.
 
Sometimes understanding things in the series can be as simple as understanding perspective, and applying it. For me I follow cyclical nature which is a primary them in the series.
 
Yiggy once gave a great example of this, Jon told her he was from the north and she basically replied not from where she was standing or grew up.
 
So you take something like this "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" Now either the planet is going to spin backwards which I doubt, everyone would die. But this is actually a daily occurrence and just depends on your perspective. Essos is considered the east and Westeros is considered the west. So from that perspective when ever the sun is rising in westeros it is setting in Essos. Rising in the west and setting in the east.
 
So sometimes I look for the perspective in a prophecy. And yes this getting to the Night Queen I just wanted an example of perspective and prophecy.
 
"Looking into several rooms in a hallway in the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees several scenes, some which appear to be of the past, some of the present and some of the future. The first of this is a woman being savaged by four little rat-like men."
 
"The second is a room filled with savagely slaughtered corpses which appear to have been attending a feast. A dead man with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king might hold a sceptre, sits at a throne, his eyes looking at Dany with mute appeal."
 
"The third room shows her old home in Braavos and Ser Willem Darry."
 
"The fourth shows an old man on a barbed throne, saying to another man below him "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," and "Let him be king of ashes."
 
"The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."."
 
Now take a good look at those. It's very important, it's often said the first vision of the female and the little rat men, is Westeros and the rat men represent 4 of the 5 kings. I heavily disagree with this. My opinion is that everyone is looking at the visions the wrong way. I have found that if you cross reference prophecies, you will find connections, prophecies that help explain prophecies.
 
The reason it's wrong about Westeros, which really suddenly it's suppose to be a female figure and 4 of the Warlock rat like servants are ravaging it is because that is nothing more than an unexplained leap of faith. It's umm Mother earth and the rat guys are taking over? Really?
 
It's just being looked at the wrong, I mean that literally. Start with the last Vision they are in chronological order, the proper way to view these visions is to turn around. Which is exactly what Dany does. She is given instructions. Always take the the first door to your right (this will become a perspective lesson from the author, just like Yiggy gave Jon) And the Warlock tells her don't you ever do the opposite, "leaving and coming, it is the same."
 
So Dany takes and drinks the shade of the evening. Shade of the evening comes from the Shade of the evening tree, which is black and blue and the exact inverse parallel to the Weirwood tree, Red and White. The colors exist as polarities to each other within the series.
 
So if you follow Dany down the very long hall, some of the doors are open and you get those visions, all the doors are on the left. For what seems like hours she walks. Till she gets to the end of the hall. But there is no door on the right. All the doors are on the left, open or closed they are on the left. And what comes behind her, the Darkness, the Darkness is coming from behind her, the light is going out. The Darkness is coming it's behind her right?
 
I don't think so.
 
"the first door on the right, he said, always the first door on the right. The first door on the right..."
 
"It came to her suddenly... is the last door on the left!"
 
It's about perspective all you have to do is turn around. "To go forward you must go back." You are literally told by the author to turn around. If you do then the visions, come in a chronological order.
 
1. The birth of Aegon
2. The Mad King during Roberts Rebllion
3. Dany's home when she was a child
4. The Red wedding
5. The women.
 
Now remember what I said about the parallel between the Shade tree and the Weirwood. Well do you actually think there is a huge difference between Little rat people who bring you the blue magic elixir for visions, and the little squirrel people who bring you the red elixir for visions? I surmise that this first vision is actually the last vision, and it is the Night Queen. In this little journey with Dany, first was last, it all came down to perspective, which way she was standing, just like Yiggy did with Jon. Martin enforces this idea throughout the series. Perspective, perception, the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, the effect of inversion in fact Arthur and Ned both state this at Jon's birth place. And so it begins, no now it ends. If your a wheel the universal symbol of the a cycle, then your doing both at the same time. In fact the rotation of a wheel goes forward, backward, up and down all at the same time. 

I REALLY like your analysis of her turning around and so the visions are in chronological order. Well done!

I also love your emphasis on perspective. This just came home to me on re-read, with Ygritte in Clash telling the story of Bael the Bard as if it were a love story, but in Bran's visions we see presumably the pregnant Stark victim of Bael praying for a son to avenge her. Not only a parallel to the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation (it's in one perspective whether a love story or a abduction/rape story), but an emphasis on perspective in general.

What I'm not quite following is the vision as the Night's Queen. Could you explain a little more fully? Also the Darkness following her? When she turns around isn't she walking towards it rather than away?

Kudos on a great post!

[Blazfemur]

I was thinking about the original nights king who loved a woman who looks very similar to the others. We haven't seen any female others and we know from the show that children are turned into others. If there were female others then they wouldn't really need to physically change humans into others to reproduce. So the original woman from the nights king story was she an other? Did the women die out? What you think is going on here?

 

Considering everything we've seen thus far, the determination of the existence of female Other is still a mystery. The show depicts all males, and the book doesnt mention sex. However, Others take only males, to turn. Considering The Night's King would've never broken a watch stipulation if not for the woman in his lore, it seems redundant for him to have forsake his vows for a woman at this point and *still* take craster's/wildling kids, fathering none, taking only the boys, so no females to wife/marry, and holding no lands (undesignated unnamed lands beyond the wall, remaining nomadic).

 

That the watch accuses him of falling for a female without evidence of any, striking his name, and destroying his records still seems fishy to me.

 

"The Night's Queen" was the Barrow King's daughter, awarded to brandon the breaker when he lost the war against the starks, and not an Other at all. Id theorize the night's king was originally sent TO the wall, because brandon caught him and her together, and didnt want to be named kinslayer. This is, of course, all theory. They did say that the ranks of the barrow king, appeared sickly and corpselike. Of course, if this was the reason he was sent tot he wall to begin with, it would mean his sleeping and falling for her was before he took his vows. It could also hint the entire Stark line, may have been descended from TNK/Barrow king's daughter, if the cards played out right. Further, Id theorize she was a Dustin, and thus why the lady dustin of present times, was so interested int he stark crypts in theon's pov. Lady Dustin post-shadows the original dustin lady, saying she fell from a brandon stark, much like the events of old.

 

For now, it's impossible to debate with the little information we have. Trust me, Lady Blizzardborn & I have been warring for what, a year/year and a half now on this? Im in the camp that there's no such thing as a female Other, and TNK never did forsake his oath when he was under vow, and still serves it to this day, since Others are "alive," and it does not end until his death. It's way too fishy that his records were destroyed, name struck from everything else, and only males are taken/converted.

 

 

We do not know that the Others we've seen have been male really.

 

GRRM very carefully used the word "it" instead of him or her, and "its" instead of his or hers in the Prologue to AGoT.

 

and damn you for beating me to this thread. if i wasnt on phones all day ;)

 

For the time being, they are "it." To me it's just a technicality until confirmation, but a technicality still warrants debate

 

 

 

 

 

 

OP, I get into this whole thing in the the thread in my signature. It may interest you. While a lot is theory, it also utilizes all the lore we're given hints about.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think I read somewhere that GRRM said he doesn't like the idea of opponents in this clash having the same kind of magic. However, I don't think that precludes the idea the Others might be somewhat like dragons, able to become female or male in the right circumstances. They are turning only male babies of Craster's right now though, but that might also be because they want more 'Other-seeds' (as opposed to dragon seeds) so the girls are being reserved for reproduction.

Point 1.  We do not have confirmation in the books of what happens to Craster's boys, or that humans can be turned into Others at all.

 

Point 2. They're only taking male babies, because Craster's only offering male babies.  We don't know that they wouldn't do the same with female babies if someone was sacrificing them.  What we need is a wider sample of baby offering scum north of the Wall.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The Night's Queen could of been one. Then again, I believe she is referred as a wight in the myth. 

The legend doesn't actually state what she was.  

 

 

<snip

 

For now, it's impossible to debate with the little information we have. Trust me, Lady Blizzardborn & I have been warring for what, a year/year and a half now on this? Im in the camp that there's no such thing as a female Other, and TNK never did forsake his oath when he was under vow, and still serves it to this day, since Others are "alive," and it does not end until his death. It's way too fishy that his records were destroyed, name struck from everything else, and only males are taken/converted.

 

 

 

and damn you for beating me to this thread. if i wasnt on phones all day ;)

 

For the time being, they are "it." To me it's just a technicality until confirmation, but a technicality still warrants debate

 

<snip

 

OP, I get into this whole thing in the the thread in my signature. It may interest you. While a lot is theory, it also utilizes all the lore we're given hints about.

I think warring is a strong term.  We have somewhat of an informal bet going that if either of us is right the one who is wrong will publicly (meaning on this forum) acknowledge such.  And I do believe there's a great deal of mutual respect involved.

 

I still say it's sexist of us to assume that the Others we've seen must be male just because they have swords.  Why do we automatically equate icy warrior demons with men and not women?  Social conditioning?  The evils of advertising?  Surely there must be someone to blame for this! ;)

 

See my above comment to the other Lady B. 

 

OP, do check out Blaz's theories.  They're cool.  No pun intended. :D

[DaenerysWinsEverything]

We don't know what they are, I generally assume they are males, but for a couple primary reasons. Crasters sons, and the stories of them hunting maidens.
 
The night queen seems to point to the one single female Other if she in fact was one. Had a theory on her awhile back not sure if it meant anything but, the basic idea is that Martin mentions her for a reason, and the story of the Night King. One reason is the parallels with Stannis and Mel. But there may have been another obscure clue.
 
Sometimes understanding things in the series can be as simple as understanding perspective, and applying it. For me I follow cyclical nature which is a primary them in the series.
 
Yiggy once gave a great example of this, Jon told her he was from the north and she basically replied not from where she was standing or grew up.
 
So you take something like this "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" Now either the planet is going to spin backwards which I doubt, everyone would die. But this is actually a daily occurrence and just depends on your perspective. Essos is considered the east and Westeros is considered the west. So from that perspective when ever the sun is rising in westeros it is setting in Essos. Rising in the west and setting in the east.
 
So sometimes I look for the perspective in a prophecy. And yes this getting to the Night Queen I just wanted an example of perspective and prophecy.
 
"Looking into several rooms in a hallway in the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees several scenes, some which appear to be of the past, some of the present and some of the future. The first of this is a woman being savaged by four little rat-like men."
 
"The second is a room filled with savagely slaughtered corpses which appear to have been attending a feast. A dead man with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king might hold a sceptre, sits at a throne, his eyes looking at Dany with mute appeal."
 
"The third room shows her old home in Braavos and Ser Willem Darry."
 
"The fourth shows an old man on a barbed throne, saying to another man below him "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," and "Let him be king of ashes."
 
"The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."."
 
Now take a good look at those. It's very important, it's often said the first vision of the female and the little rat men, is Westeros and the rat men represent 4 of the 5 kings. I heavily disagree with this. My opinion is that everyone is looking at the visions the wrong way. I have found that if you cross reference prophecies, you will find connections, prophecies that help explain prophecies.
 
The reason it's wrong about Westeros, which really suddenly it's suppose to be a female figure and 4 of the Warlock rat like servants are ravaging it is because that is nothing more than an unexplained leap of faith. It's umm Mother earth and the rat guys are taking over? Really?
 
It's just being looked at the wrong, I mean that literally. Start with the last Vision they are in chronological order, the proper way to view these visions is to turn around. Which is exactly what Dany does. She is given instructions. Always take the the first door to your right (this will become a perspective lesson from the author, just like Yiggy gave Jon) And the Warlock tells her don't you ever do the opposite, "leaving and coming, it is the same."
 
So Dany takes and drinks the shade of the evening. Shade of the evening comes from the Shade of the evening tree, which is black and blue and the exact inverse parallel to the Weirwood tree, Red and White. The colors exist as polarities to each other within the series.
 
So if you follow Dany down the very long hall, some of the doors are open and you get those visions, all the doors are on the left. For what seems like hours she walks. Till she gets to the end of the hall. But there is no door on the right. All the doors are on the left, open or closed they are on the left. And what comes behind her, the Darkness, the Darkness is coming from behind her, the light is going out. The Darkness is coming it's behind her right?
 
I don't think so.
 
"the first door on the right, he said, always the first door on the right. The first door on the right..."
 
"It came to her suddenly... is the last door on the left!"
 
It's about perspective all you have to do is turn around. "To go forward you must go back." You are literally told by the author to turn around. If you do then the visions, come in a chronological order.
 
1. The birth of Aegon
2. The Mad King during Roberts Rebllion
3. Dany's home when she was a child
4. The Red wedding
5. The women.
 
Now remember what I said about the parallel between the Shade tree and the Weirwood. Well do you actually think there is a huge difference between Little rat people who bring you the blue magic elixir for visions, and the little squirrel people who bring you the red elixir for visions? I surmise that this first vision is actually the last vision, and it is the Night Queen. In this little journey with Dany, first was last, it all came down to perspective, which way she was standing, just like Yiggy did with Jon. Martin enforces this idea throughout the series. Perspective, perception, the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, the effect of inversion in fact Arthur and Ned both state this at Jon's birth place. And so it begins, no now it ends. If your a wheel the universal symbol of the a cycle, then your doing both at the same time. In fact the rotation of a wheel goes forward, backward, up and down all at the same time.

This seems correct to me. But what then do you make of the differences in detail between the vision and what really happened in the Red Wedding? Do you think that vision could be future too?

[Ser Creighton]

I like everything you've said about perspective here. It is so simple when explained in this way, I am certain you are right.

I'm not sure that I follow what you mean about the last (first) vision with the rats. Why can't the woman he Westeros? Four rats, four present kings. A lady it's a common depiction of a kingdom IRL. What woman would you think the rat-alternative-earth-singers would be worrying?

Okay, lets see if I can simplify it a little more. Last is first and first is last. The end is the beginning and the beginning is the end. Simply put it is cyclical nature, think a rotating wheel, if you walk in a circle the complete revolution is the point where you began, it's also the end of your journey.

 

So even though it is a line think of it like a circle. The first door is the woman and the last is Rhaegar. But when you walk all the way down that hallway and you turn around Rhaegar is now the first door and she is the last door. The chronological order suggests that is the right direction. So whatever is going on with everything probably started there and will end there. Now what is important too note as the two main symbols we see are male and female aka binary opposition, natural opposites. So on one end I have Rhaegar, Prince that was promised and fire he is a Targaryen. It stands to reason that the opposite end would be the opposite, after all that is where the Darkness is coming from.

 

Take it a step further, there is a theory called the unity of opposition, yes I started it a long time ago and I don't mean to promote. It's called the Sun and the Moon, naturally occurring opposites, Light and night, male and female symbolism, hot and cold. Now you can flip the sex around it does not matter but they should be opposites. When it is all one or the other you get imbalance. So Martin employs this theme a lot, in the aforementioned sun and moon, that story, Moon and the son. In the story of the maiden made of light and the lion of night, in Rhaegar and Lyanna, Dany and Drogo (The moon of his life and her sun and stars), Azor and Nissa, though I don't have any elements for them other than male and female. In all these cases you get the same end result, something special. Dragons, Lightbringer, the Pearl Emperor, etc... So you get that same dynamic this scene.  

 

What got the Others going again? What started this? Don't know but I won't be surprised if it goes back to her.

 

As for a women being symbolic of Mother earth, or just plain mother, well of course. But generally it is symbolic of a goddess and the goddess is symbolic of the place. So take a closer look at the history of Westeros and the House of the Undying. There are a lot of parallels here. I mentioned the trees, the sap, and the little people. But I will take it a little further. If the vision lets say the little people are basically one and the same and they actually represent the Children. So in the house of the Undying what happens to Dany? What do they want, and pay attention to the themes and symbolism. What do you see when you see the undying? Start with the name. Are the Undying that different from some of the Undead you have come to know? Rotting corpses, cold, everything is blue, and of course a giant floating heart. The door to their room is a Yin Yang the ultimate symbol of binary opposition, the unity of opposition and the cycles. The giant floating blue heart, is a parallel to the heart of winter, the blue light is a typical color associated with the Wights, Darkness, the Wall (Yes you see the wall), the Cold, the dead, and what do they want? They want Dany, they want the fire, the life. They are trying to come back, and they seem to need her to do it.

 

Well lets say Dany is a inverse Parallel to the Night Queen, fire and light, Ice and Night. You know before man came to Westeros it was the land of the Giants, of the Children. The children are going away. They are in their twilight, they tell us this, which is the moment between light and dark. Maybe they want to use her for something similar to the way the Undying wanted to us Dany. Dany the Mother, and Maybe the Night Queen is a mother too. Dany's roots are in Essos that is where here people are from, she is a Valyrian the land of fire, where is the Night Queen from? Essos the land of the rising sun or Westeros the land of the setting sun. Westeros the home of the land of always winter. Who is to say that is not her home, her land? You know the end of that hallway was still lit, the other end in Darkness, you see the symbolism again.

 

Remember something about the Childrens cave, it is creepy. Now some people will tell you that Martin is just inverting tropes. I say BS, every horror story from the series was creepy and bone chilling from the beginning to the end.

 

 

This seems correct to me. But what then do you make of the differences in detail between the vision and what really happened in the Red Wedding? Do you think that vision could be future too?

Red wedding had not occurred yet, that was the future. When you look at the way Martin writes visions, the past is usually like a memory much more literal, we see this with Bran, with Dany here, and so on. The future are generally very vague and symbolic in nature and I will give you an example and at the same time show you how Martin shares symbolism between visions even if the people are different. It's not really related to the night queen but if it helps explain visions, I don't mind doing it. Again it's based off a theory I wrote, sorry, these are just the things I know best and generally write about. I am not the only person to write about this stuff, and I don't want to take credit for inventing the wheel. But these are actually pretty tight.

 

So a future vision from Jojen.

 

"It is the sea that comes."
"The sea?"
"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw the black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

 

So we know it is repetitive and we know the sea was symbolic of the Iron Born, now watch how Martin may being sharing that symbolism.

 

This next one is Mel vision from Dance, it's many visions but I am going to focus on one part of it.

 

"Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky."

 

Skulls that turn to mist are easy enough to associate with the Others. The Dragons are there as well, two people that are probably very important are there, locked in lust. And we get a place towers by a sea crumbling. Were could you find this place? Well the Iron Born built Harrenhal didn't they and it's not the first time we see them represented as the sea in a vision, and the towers of Harrenhall are crumbling and melted.

 

Now in this same vision we get this:

 

"A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment . . . but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolfs face threw back his head and howled."

 

So very clearly Bloodraven and Bran, note that Bran has the head of a Wolf, much like Robb does in Dany's vision. So as you can see he does in fact share symbolism in visions even if different people are having the visions, Dany, Mel, Jojen, doesn't matter, you get it with Qauithe as well, she tells of the coming of a Kraken, and Moqorro also sees a Kraken. They don't give you a name, they tell you what they saw and what they saw was symbolic of what was coming.

 

I know I missed one post I will get to it in the morning  I am just to tired right now. Anyway I personally hope people consider these ideas, I think it will help in the readings and understanding the series better. It's not a lock but the Sun and Moon theory has a decent following and it's core idea is used pretty regularly these days, you can even see it at work in the show.But you kind of got to know to look for it. Show related [spoiler] Like a little clue, Oliver and Olly, and Jon and Loras. You know both Jon and Loras are roses right? And you know on the show Loras has a birthmark of the place Jon was born. Why do you think Loras has a birthmark of Dorne and they made sure to point it out? [/spoiler]