High Sparrow and Tyene

[Good Guy Garlan]

Tyene's more likely to earn a spot as one of Margaery's seven judges, in the position of the Maiden.

[Lord Wraith]

Tyene's more likely to earn a spot as one of Margaery's seven judges, in the position of the Maiden.

 

This is what I would like to see. Can a trial of seven be done in this manner or is it something else? I don't remember how the faith of seven courts used to work before Maegor.

[Good Guy Garlan]

This is what I would like to see. Can a trial of seven be done in this manner or is it something else? I don't remember how the faith of seven courts used to work before Maegor.

As I understand it, it's a regular trial (like Tyrion's, before he chose trial by battle) only with seven judges, each representing one of the Seven.

My guesses for the judges are:

Father - High Sparrow

Mother - Lady Bracken (super random, I know, but she's one of the few actual mothers who are pious and within travelling distance of KL)

Maiden - Tyene

Warrior - Theodan the True

Smith - Tobho Mott

Crone - any random old septa

Stranger - Ilyn Payne

[JaegrM]

As I understand it, it's a regular trial (like Tyrion's, before he chose trial by battle) only with seven judges, each representing one of the Seven.

My guesses for the judges are:

Father - High Sparrow

Mother - Lady Bracken (super random, I know, but she's one of the few actual mothers who are pious and within travelling distance of KL)

Maiden - Tyene

Warrior - Theodan the True

Smith - Tobho Mott

Crone - any random old septa

Stranger - Ilyn Payne

I've seen this kind of idea before, but I'm curious if there's any textual evidence that the seven judges are actually supposed to represent each of The Seven, or they're having 7 judges just because 7 is a holy number?

 

But I suspect regardless of the in universe logic behind the seven judges we'll still be able to place them as...avatars of each of the seven.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

This is what I would like to see. Can a trial of seven be done in this manner or is it something else? I don't remember how the faith of seven courts used to work before Maegor.

A "trial of seven" as far as I understand it is just a combat trial, only with seven combatants to a side. 

 

Why wasn't Tyrion tried by the faith?  Don't they hold that regicide is a sin? Or is it just that the High Septon at the time wasn't willing to stick his neck out and get involved?

 

I don't see why Margaery's trial for treason against her king is particularly different than Tyrion's alleged crime of homicide against his king.  Adultery is treason and sinful, and killing the king is treason and sinful.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

She's there to be Doran's eyes and ears. She has swore on her father's grave she will obey Doran's order. The three of them have, even Obara. And they took that vow seriously, otherwise, she hadn't reacted badly at having to do it. They won't go rogue in KL and do as they please.

[falcotron]

Why wasn't Tyrion tried by the faith?  Don't they hold that regicide is a sin? Or is it just that the High Septon at the time wasn't willing to stick his neck out and get involved?

Regicide is clearly a civil crime, whether or not it's also an ecclesiastical crime,¹ and a sovereign would have to be incredibly weak to let the Faith claim jurisdiction over a crime like that. And, from what we've seen, since the time of Maegor, the crown pretty much has whatever jurisdiction they want.

Of course Cersei completely threw that away, reopening the question of overlapping authority. Going by European history (which only goes so far as a parallel,² but it definitely seems to work here), what you'd expect is: (1) the Faith will try to see how much they can get away with expanding their jurisdiction, and (2) if the Faith really wants to try someone badly enough, they'll find a way to define the crime in terms that are more obviously ecclesiastical in nature.³

And that's exactly what we see. In fact, they go for the gold, trying to claim jurisdiction over the Queen Consort and the Queen Mother/Regent, with one charge that pretty easily falls under their jurisdiction (adultery), so the trial is hard to just dismiss as a sham, and one charge that probably doesn't fall under their jurisdiction but would really expand their power if they can get away with it (treason).
 

I don't see why Margaery's trial for treason against her king is particularly different than Tyrion's alleged crime of homicide against his king.  Adultery is treason and sinful, and killing the king is treason and sinful.

The biggest difference is that, at the time of Tyrion's trial, Cersei hadn't yet restored the authority of the Faith.

 

If she'd made that proclamation a few months earlier, it's not impossible that they would have tried to insist that they had jurisdiction over Tyrion's case, and used the same maneuver of finding both clearly religious charges (to validate their authority) and charges that were really pushing it (to see what they could get away with, and set a precedent). But Tywin probably would have challenged that, and might not have been reticent to use Lannister forces and the gold cloaks to get his way, so they might not have gotten away with it anyway...

¹ I suppose technically we don't actually know that regicide is a sin, given that the Faith doesn't seem to have the same kind of "divine right of kings" idea as the Catholic Church. But I think your assumption that it's a sin is pretty reasonable.

² Beyond the obvious differences: The Church had the option of excommunicating people they weren't allowed to try, which affected both what they were willing to give up on, and how they conducted the struggle against monarchs. The Church was also (at least until the very late middle ages) a major organ of diplomacy and arbitration between rival sovereigns. And so on. The Faith doesn't seem to have any of these avenues of indirect power.

³ You also might expect to see both sides start trying to fob off jurisdiction over unpopular or expensive-to-enforce laws, but that's not relevant here.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Okay.  Thanks.

 

I did find this in the wiki:

 

 

 

 The trial of seven is a form of trial by combat an offended party can demand during trial. It is linked to the Faith of the Seven and Andal tradition.

 

Of course a criminal trial conducted by the Faith could have seven judges, they just wouldn't call it a "trial of seven."  Maybe a trial by seven?

[falcotron]

Of course a criminal trial conducted by the Faith could have seven judges, they just wouldn't call it a "trial of seven."  Maybe a trial by seven?

I don't think we learned the wording, or the details of how it works, just that Margy asked to be tried by "judges". But it doesn't seem at all implausible that a Faith trial by judges would involve seven of them, or that it would have a name like "trial by seven".

(Not that it means very much, but how did Cersei's preliminary trial work on the show? Between the WoS and the big Jon, Shireen, Brienne, Arya, Myrcella, and Varys drama, it doesn't exactly stand out in my memory, but I vaguely remember the High Sparrow being flanked by some other nameless Faith types who nodded at all his questions but didn't say anything. Were there six of them?)

[RomKat]

 

I think she will ingratiate herself with the High Sparrow to use as a tool to manipulate events in KL, in the interest of Dorne. In the end she may kill him if she can frame the Lannisters or the Tyrells, but thats about it.

 

I agree. She grew up with a religious mom did she not, who read to her about the Seven, and she loves to dress "pure" and "innocent". I think she'd make a great "devout" follower to get close to HS win him over and influence him. Unless HS = HR and then he just might be "girl, cut it out, I'm doing some Northern Conspiracy revenge shit."

[Nights Kings Queen]

I've seen this kind of idea before, but I'm curious if there's any textual evidence that the seven judges are actually supposed to represent each of The Seven, or they're having 7 judges just because 7 is a holy number?
 
But I suspect regardless of the in universe logic behind the seven judges we'll still be able to place them as...avatars of each of the seven.

"Yet who is truly fit to judge a queen, save the Seven Above and the godsworn below? A sacred court of seven judges shall sit upon this case. Three shall of your female sex. A maiden, a mother and a crone. Who could be more suited to judge the wickedness of women?"

[Caspoi]

Why would she?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Why wasn't Tyrion tried by the faith?  Don't they hold that regicide is a sin? Or is it just that the High Septon at the time wasn't willing to stick his neck out and get involved?

 

I imagine that, had the then High Septon approached the Crown with the idea of handling Tyrion's trial, Lord Tywin would've simply ordered him to fornicate off (and the HS would've had no choice but to obey). The entire "tried by the Faith" thing is brand new, made possible by several factors: the High Septon is not a mere pawn, but for a change a playa, the Crown has enough enemies, and enough trouble on its hands (do crowns have hands? nvm) already, and subjugating the - now armed - Faith can't be done without massive bloodshed in the capital.

 

Tarly openly snarks at the status quo nevertheless.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

T​yene job is a spy and to nudge the High Sparrow  in the right direction through flattery rather than seduction .