The Gaps of Westeros(Geographically and Lore wise)

[Jacques the Japer]

There's something that continually bugs me about some of the figures and geographical distances GRRM alludes to in the books.

 

 

Maybe ive spent too much time in the social sciences, maybe im just not imaginative enough

 

 

When I first began reading ASOIAF my first conception of Westeros was the size of an England on steroids

 

 

Then a joined-at-the-hip western Europe

 

 

And now im told its about the size of South America.

 

But by the seven how? How does a continent that size stay politically unified with the type of technology they have,how has a continent that size remained ethnically homogenous and with a mutually intelligible language after so many thousands and thousands of years? how come such a huge continent has so few towns and urban areas, after such long period of agrarian settlement,? How can such a society support the armies bordering on Napoleonic size? (Im looking at you Highgarden) 

 

Or am I forgetting its just fantasy? :blushing:

[lewiswarburton]

China has  been a huge and relatively homogeneous civilisation, with a mutually intelligible  (written) language for much of its history. For the Targareyans the magic technology which enabled them to keep it all together was dragons, and magic. The Egyptian civilization lasted for a very long time without being very urban. Essos seems to have a city-state urban culture, but Westeros has territorial states, with kings having to travel the country from castle to castle. Castles definitely seem more important to how the territory is governed.

 

When it comes down to it though, I think you have to remember it's fantasy. Which is not to say that 'anything goes', just that it has a different sociocultural evolution. In our world technology is a major factor in keeping large territories together and homogeneous, in Martin's world it is perhaps dragons and magic that play that role.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

There's something that continually bugs me about some of the figures and geographical distances GRRM alludes to in the books.

 

 

Maybe ive spent too much time in the social sciences, maybe im just not imaginative enough

 

 

When I first began reading ASOIAF my first conception of Westeros was the size of an England on steroids

 

 

Then a joined-at-the-hip western Europe

 

 

And now im told its about the size of South America.

 

But by the seven how? How does a continent that size stay politically unified with the type of technology they have,how has a continent that size remained ethnically homogenous and with a mutually intelligible language after so many thousands and thousands of years? how come such a huge continent has so few towns and urban areas, after such long period of agrarian settlement,? How can such a society support the armies bordering on Napoleonic size? (Im looking at you Highgarden) 

 

Or am I forgetting its just fantasy? :blushing:

It's not just you. I think you just have to accept that there's only so much real world complexity a fantasy author can import into their setting. Martin isn't the worst offender by any means.

 

In Martin's defence, the Incas show how with basically early Bronze Age technology and a limited range of domesticated animals (dogs, llamas, guinea pigs - no horses or cattle), a culture can politically unify a huge expanse of territory across numerous altitudes and latitudes. I don't think the Incan polity would have lasted indefinitely (they were already arguably overstretched by the time the Spanish arrived), but we don't know how unified and homogeneous Andean society might have become given time. 

 

As for Highgarden's troop numbers, they're large, but comparable to what France could raise in the Hundred Years' War (also see the size of the English armies at Towton).

[The scourge of westeros]

Well I guess being as though the doom of valyria happened on a scale and timeframe similar to Atlantis, I guess there went what could have been a large refugee influx inside of westeros.
I mean really, for an advanced civilization of only 300 years ago, valyrians are on the border of extinction.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Yeah it annoys me too, but it's fantasy. Army sizes shouldn't be a problem unless they're astronomical sizes. I worry more about impossible timing where one character obviously has a private jet.

[SerCaf]

In what way do you think Westeros is homogenous?

First men

Andals

Northern mountain clans

Vale mountain clans

Ironborn

Targ/Valeryon etc (Valyrian influence)

Stone, salty, sandy dornishmen

Orphans of the greenblood.

Cranogmen

Skagos clans

Im sure i have forgotten some.

But my point is that Westeros is far from homogeneous. Dont forgett that the continent is fairly low populated in relation to the real world, there is not enough people too have more cultures.

[HouseHarrison]

It's barely united, politically or culturally. That's a big point of Westeros. Culture/religion/lack of natural barriers keeps the southern kingdoms in check, but the North, Dorne, and Iron Islands are different matters and barely under control.

 

It's actually less centralized and united than historically massive states like China.

[Maester of Valyria]

In what way do you think Westeros is homogenous?

First men

Andals

Northern mountain clans

Vale mountain clans

Ironborn

Targ/Valeryon etc (Valyrian influence)

Stone, salty, sandy dornishmen

Orphans of the greenblood.

Cranogmen

Skagos clans

Im sure i have forgotten some.

But my point is that Westeros is far from homogeneous. Dont forgett that the continent is fairly low populated in relation to the real world, there is not enough people too have more cultures.

Also all the various groups of Wildlings, the Sistermen, elder races, and all the foreign traders and merchants who set up shop in the cities and ports.

 

As for the main post, one of the things we have learned not to question too much are the distances and figures: the uncertainty is a better representation of medieval life. I don't think it's strange that society has remained at the feudal level for so long, as the periodic years-long winters will have hampered social and technological development. Westeros (and to an extent the entire Known World) is based on specific regions in our own world (Westerlands=England, Iron Islands=Scandinavia, etc), but all scaled up to the size of, as you point out, South America.

As previous posters have mentioned, China is a good real-world example of a feudal society that stayed together for long periods of time, with medieval technology, while maintaining a universal language (by the way, GRRM has stated that in reality there would be several languages, but that he wanted to keep things simple).

[Nezi0]

On 12/10/2015 at 8:13 PM, Maester of Valyria said:

As for the main post, one of the things we have learned not to question too much are the distances and figures: the uncertainty is a better representation of medieval life. I don't think it's strange that society has remained at the feudal level for so long, as the periodic years-long winters will have hampered social and technological development. Westeros (and to an extent the entire Known World) is based on specific regions in our own world (Westerlands=England, Iron Islands=Scandinavia, etc), but all scaled up to the size of, as you point out, South America.

 

not necessarily. Westeros is the length of South America. this include the land beyond the wall which according to GRR makes us a big chunk of Westeros and is the size of Canada. 

keeping that in mind this might not be such an outlandish comparison after all. 

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/iceandfire/images/0/09/Westeroseurocompar.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110702125911