God Emperors in Westeros

[Lady Barbrey]

This theory is that the God Emperors of Yi Ti are actual parallels to Westerosi game players clothed in Asian/Yi Ti details.  GRRM, Elio and Linda have provided us with a series of easter eggs in this list that either wink at a few fan theories, confirm them, or do both at the same time.  I’ll go through each one, and please, if you think of something more likely, comment on it because there is at lease one character of the main seven I’m not sure about.

 

THE GOD-EMPERORS OF YI TI

To recount even the most important events of this long history would require more words than we have, yet we would be remiss if we did not at least mention a few of the more fabled of the god-emperors of Yi Ti:

 

HAR LOI, the first of the grey emperors (1), whose throne was said to be a saddle, for he spent his entire reign at war, riding from one battle to another.  This is Rob Stark, of the grey Stark banner, who spent his entire “reign” riding from one battle to another.

 

CHOQ CHOQ, the humpbacked, fifteenth and last of the indigo emperors (2), who kept a hundred wives and a thousand concubines and sired daughters beyond count but was never able to produce a son.

This is blue-eyed Robert Baratheon, last (and first) of the legitimate Baratheon kings, once described as a whale by his wife (and thus humpbacked), who had many bastard children – 19 or something - of both sexes but the Baratheon line proper is ending in one girl child, Shireen. This is sketchy.  I also thought Oberyn or Littlefinger candidates.

 

MENGO QUEN, the Glittering God, third of the jade-green emperors (3), who ruled from a palace where the floors and walls and columns were covered in gold leaf, and all the furnishings were made of gold, even to the chamber pots.  This is green-eyed Tywin Lannister, with a particular nod to how he died and how he “shit gold” by mention of the golden chamber pots. 

 

 

LO THO, called Lo Longspoon and Lo the Terrible, the twenty-second scarlet emperor (4), a reputed sorcerer and cannibal, who is said to have supped upon the living brains of his enemies with a long, pearl-handled spoon, after the tops of their skulls had been removed. This is Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, scarlet for Targaryan, a reputed sorcerer, suspected cannibal (a wink to Jojen paste), and a reader of minds and dreams.

 

 

LO DOQ, called Lo Lackwit, the thirty-fourth scarlet emperor, a seeming simpleton cursed with an affliction that made him jerk and stagger when he walked, and drool when he tried to speak, who nonetheless ruled wisely for more than thirty years (though some suggest that the true ruler was his wife, the formidable Empress Bathi Ma Lo).  This is Tyrion Lannister, also Targaryan scarlet like Bloodraven for some reason (a possible nod to the A+J=T theory).  I Claudius, the tv serial (I highly recommend it) is a stated basis for Game of Thrones by GRRM.  Claudius is who is being described above but George has been paralleling him with Tyrion throughout the series.  For a case in point, Claudius was famously killed by a dish of poisoned mushrooms; compare this to Tyrion’s unreasonable suspicions that Illyrio wanted to poison him with a dish of mushrooms.  Like Claudius, Tyrion is constantly underestimated because of a disability, but proves an excellent Hand.  I’m very sure of this one.

 

 

THE NINE EUNUCHS, the pearl-white emperors (5) who gave Yi Ti 130 years of peace and prosperity. As young men and princes, they lived as other men, taking wives and concubines and siring heirs, but upon their ascent each surrendered his manhood root and stem, so that he might devote himself entirely to the empire.  This is Varys, who was cut “root and stem” and whose stated purpose is to devote himself to the realm.  An interesting nod here to theories that Varys might have sired Aegon before getting cut (though that would make the history he relates to Tyrion at least partially a lie and God knows he would never do that). 

 

 

JAR HAR, and his sons Jar Joq and Jar Han, the sixth, seventh, and eighth of the sea-green emperors (6), under whose rule the empire reached the apex of its power. Jar Har conquered Leng, Jar Joq took Great Morag, Jar Han exacted tribute from Qarth, Old Ghis, Asshai, and other far-flung lands, and traded with Valyria.  These  are the Greyjoys I think, Balon, Asha and Theon, but this is the hardest one for me to pinpoint, maybe because the Greyjoys never interested me that much.  Ignore the placenames – this is a “sea”-green family who conquered a number of important locations.

 

CHAI DUQ, the fourth yellow emperor (7), who took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria and kept a dragon at his court.  This is yellow-bearded Illyrio, who took a Lys pleasure house girl (with Valyrian colouring – the blood of Old Valyria is said to run strong in Lys) and kept a dragon – Dany – at his house.  

 

So I’m very sure of 5 of the 7, pretty sure of a 6th, but you might want to throw your weight behind other candidates for Jar Har and sons in particular.

 

This list proper is over but there are other emperors mentioned next that are highly evocative of Westerosi characters or houses too.  I do have some speculation based on them but thought I would post this first.  If you're interested, you might want to make a few guesses yourself!

[Julia H.]

Very interesting and convincing OP. I look forward to reading about more discoveries here.

 

I'd love to contribute to a future discussion,too,  but the beginning of a busy week is not the best time to find a thread that makes me want to do some intensive reread, like this thread.  :)

[LmL]

Awesome, glad you posted this Lady Babs. I loved it when you whipped it out in the other thread, definitely deserving of its own. I was particularly impressed because I had looked pretty hard at these emperors and just could not figure what the puzzle was, but you've definitely nailed it. I actually thinks the Greyjoys as the three green Emperors is pretty strong, because ALL of the places they exacted tribute from were reached by sea, with the possible exception of Qarth - you could get there by land, but by sea would be far easier. Leng, Moraq, Asshai, Old Ghis, Valyria - all reached by boat. So yeah, Greyjoys. There's isn't an exact correlation to specific Greyjoys for lack of info, but the implication is there.

As far as I am concerned, A+J=T is a closed case after this. ;)

Have you figured any other ramifications for these correlations? What is Martintrying to say here, do you think, beyond just being clever?

[Lady Dyanna]

Great OP! :cheers: I'll be back when I have the chance to put some more thought into it and take a peak back at my WB. Some great ideas so far!

[Lady Barbrey]

Awesome, glad you posted this Lady Babs. I loved it when you whipped it out in the other thread, definitely deserving of its own. I was particularly impressed because I had looked pretty hard at these emperors and just could not figure what the puzzle was, but you've definitely nailed it. I actually thinks the Greyjoys as the three green Emperors is pretty strong, because ALL of the places they exacted tribute from were reached by sea, with the possible exception of Qarth - you could get there by land, but by sea would be far easier. Leng, Moraq, Asshai, Old Ghis, Valyria - all reached by boat. So yeah, Greyjoys. There's isn't an exact correlation to specific Greyjoys for lack of info, but the implication is there.

As far as I am concerned, A+J=T is a closed case after this. ;)

Have you figured any other ramifications for these correlations? What is Martintrying to say here, do you think, beyond just being clever?

 

I

I do have to look at it more.  As I said before on the other thread, it is like he is mirroring the approach to the Heart of Winter with this approach to the Heart of Summer, both of which have been corrupted.  If you take a look at Leng, for instance, and strip it of its more Asian qualities, the rumours about it mirror many of the same things on Skagos.  And as you know, we have a gray waste and a five forts mirroring wildling areas and the Wall.  We hear of lizard-men but that's like hearing about wargs - skinchanging.  I'm still trying to figure out how to pull quotes but might give up and just re-type passages for comparison.

 

If you just go on in the God-Emperor section, though, there are a few evocative things that struck me.  But everything is so based on colour symbolism, and the colours could refer to house colours, eye colours, etc., that I find it much harder to make out.  Here's something though: there are three god-emperors competing for supremacy in Yi Ti right now.  One of them is another yellow emperor, like Illyrio is in the first post.  This yellow emperor makes his home in Carcosa.  If you have ever read Lovecraft or Bierce, you would know that Carcosa is the home of the King in Yellow, a personage so evil that even to read about him will corrupt you.  The connection of Illyrio to the King in Yellow makes me wonder if he's far more evil than we know, and if his agenda maybe is a carry over from the Bloodstone Emperor.  But you see how the above post worked - readers might get one or two of them but not usually more, and in and of themselves they don't mean much..  It's only when you get six of them, like I did, that you know there's a definite pattern and some conclusions might be based on it.  So I need  to figure out the other clues in the same section as the King in Yellow part to find out if  the Illyrio-King in Yellow theory holds up.  I think it likely will.  I could sure use the help of someone who knows these texts like the back of their hands, though!  Like you maybe? ;)

[Cagey Bee]

I like this idea about Illyrio.. I think the whole (f)Aegon thing is a smokescreen, and his true intentions are something more like this.. Now.. I like me some Lovecraft.. I'll be looking both these stories over, and give it some scrutiny, for what it's worth. Love this.

Exit: I rushed the yi ti part time in the world book in favor of the Gemstone stuff.. need to go back..

[Lady Barbrey]

Very interesting and convincing OP. I look forward to reading about more discoveries here.

 

I'd love to contribute to a future discussion,too,  but the beginning of a busy week is not the best time to find a thread that makes me want to do some intensive reread, like this thread.  :)

Thanks Julia H!  If you get time to read the world book, let me know what you think.  I'm trying to discover if the writers are purposefully mirroring the approach to the Heart of Winter with these kinds of similarities to the the approach to the Heart of Summer but finding it difficult to get through some of the colour symbolism.  Yi Ti, Leng, the Jogos Nai, the Five Forts (the Wall), the Gray Waste, the Shadow- strip them of summer and Asian references and you get very similar places to the 7 Kingdoms, Beyond the Wall, the Wall, Skagos and the horrid Heart of Always Winter.  I don't think I would have noticed it much except for these God-Emperor references.

[Lady Barbrey]

Great OP! :cheers: I'll be back when I have the chance to put some more thought into it and take a peak back at my WB. Some great ideas so far!

Thanks Lady Dyanna!  I could use some help going on with the other sections!  I like puzzles a lot but I'm not detail-conscious, themes are more my thing.  

[LmL]

I do have to look at it more.  As I said before on the other thread, it is like he is mirroring the approach to the Heart of Winter with this approach to the Heart of Summer, both of which have been corrupted.  If you take a look at Leng, for instance, and strip it of its more Asian qualities, the rumours about it mirror many of the same things on Skagos.  And as you know, we have a gray waste and a five forts mirroring wildling areas and the Wall.  We hear of lizard-men but that's like hearing about wargs - skinchanging.  I'm still trying to figure out how to pull quotes but might give up and just re-type passages for comparison.
 
If you just go on in the God-Emperor section, though, there are a few evocative things that struck me.  But everything is so based on colour symbolism, and the colours could refer to house colours, eye colours, etc., that I find it much harder to make out.  Here's something though: there are three god-emperors competing for supremacy in Yi Ti right now.  One of them is another yellow emperor, like Illyrio is in the first post.  This yellow emperor makes his home in Carcosa.  If you have ever read Lovecraft or Bierce, you would know that Carcosa is the home of the King in Yellow, a personage so evil that even to read about him will corrupt you.  The connection of Illyrio to the King in Yellow makes me wonder if he's far more evil than we know, and if his agenda maybe is a carry over from the Bloodstone Emperor.  But you see how the above post worked - readers might get one or two of them but not usually more, and in and of themselves they don't mean much..  It's only when you get six of them, like I did, that you know there's a definite pattern and some conclusions might be based on it.  So I need  to figure out the other clues in the same section as the King in Yellow part to find out if  the Illyrio-King in Yellow theory holds up.  I think it likely will.  I could sure use the help of someone who knows these texts like the back of their hands, though!  Like you maybe? ;)

Illyrios rings contains 6 of the 8 emperors gemstones. Check out this thread:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129074-illyrios-fingers/

[Lady Barbrey]

You sent me to it before after I asked if you thought Illyrio's rings could be connected to the Great Emperors!  I did read the OP.  Excellent!  I'm having trouble figuring out which ring gems he has and the GE's don't and vice versa. Back to the book.  It might be significant he's missing topaz, the yellow one!

[LmL]

Ah, that's right, I forgot about that. I just wanted to say that I like the yellow emperor connection with Illyrio, and I do think he is some kind of "Geodawnian Revivalist" :)

[Lady Barbrey]

Ah, that's right, I forgot about that. I just wanted to say that I like the yellow emperor connection with Illyrio, and I do think he is some kind of "Geodawnian Revivalist" :)

For sure is.  I read the section again and definitely have more information.  If I'm reading it correctly, Westeros was first populated by maroons (escaped slaves and shipwrecked sailors), and then ruled by the purple rulers in the Western Hills (the Daynes), then the scarlet emperors (the Targaryans) and that brings us to the the first game of thrones book where it was ruled at the same time by the grey, indigo and pearl white-emperors - Starks (Rob as King in the North), Baratheons and Varys (as if we didn't know)!  Aside from the maroons, which would have been a loose collection of people under a leader at the southern points of Dorne, that means the last kings of Westeros who ruled the entire country were in fact the Daynes.  Kings of the First Men!  Then the country breaks up into separate kingdoms and the Andals come, but there never is a high king again until the Targaryans (and they're descended from the Kings of the First Men themselves if they returned to Essos from Westeros).  And we get the escaped slave connection again.  This is really exciting for me because of that post I put up that was speculative about most of the First Men being escaped slaves from the BS Empire and the purple-eyed people (the Daynes) became their leaders and saviours.  Purple sails, baby!

 

As well, the three current lines contending they're the emperors of Yi Ti,  which I am reading as the major threats to Westeros right now, come from the azure faction (the Others), the yellow faction (Illyrio, and with a definite evil twist), and the orange faction (Doran).  I seem to have underestimated Doran.  He's playing for the whole thing. I'll have to take a look at that Dornish Master Plan theory again.

 

The Greyjoys, if thats who the sea-green emperors are, and I agree they're most likely, are playing a part too but don't seem to be a real threat.

 

Because Varys is counted as a separate faction from Illyrio, I think he really is doing what he does for the good of the realm, and has been played by Illyrio, who definitely isn't.

 

The Jhogos Nai can be identified strongly with the Dornish right down to the wars between them and the Targaryans. You don't really start to see it until you're about half-way in reading the part about the Jhogos Nai.  And I think, but I have to read it again with the Targ information at hand,  that they might be hinting that the Targaryans stopped being the legitimate line after one of those Targ dudes (can't remember which one) was defeated badly by the Dornish.  Like I said, must read again, I might be wrong.

 

There's just a touch more information on the Game of Thrones wiki, but guess who they expand upon - the scarlet emperors!  And they correlate with Targaryans for sure with other events and characters.  I will swear now, and I was never more than 20% pro before, that I am 100% sure Tyrion is a Targaryan!

[LmL]

Fantastic, Lady B. :bowdown: It's when the metaphorical interpretations spit out something that matches with the story that one becomes excited. :) It's also great when they confirm hunches you had instinctively.

That's all really swell, but there's one missing person.

Garth the Green! Find me Garth, and I'm sold. :)

[LmL]

Oh and I sent you a PM :)

[Lady Barbrey]

Fantastic, Lady B. :bowdown: It's when the metaphorical interpretations spit out something that matches with the story that one becomes excited. :) It's also great when they confirm hunches you had instinctively.

That's all really swell, but there's one missing person.

Garth the Green! Find me Garth, and I'm sold. :)

No Garth so far I'm afraid.  More importantly no Littlefinger.  That's got me quite perplexed.  

 

ETA: I'm starting to wonder if the sea-green emperors are not Littlefinger, and I was thrown off by the island conquering and two sons thing.  After all, Varys is from 9 Eunuchs but it only means him.  Oh gosh, I'm starting to see it now, just a glimmer.

[LmL]

Of course, Azor Ahai is (theory) a horned lord himself, so it's possible part of the Garth legend grows from him, as weird as that sounds. Still, Garth the Green must be found. He's the one who established the green skin horned men on the Isle of Faces, so he's pretty freaking important. He must be on there somewhere.

[hiemal]

Kudos on some great ideas and a great post! LML pointed it out, and I must say it's right up my ally.

It's been a long time since I read any of the King in Yellow, but from what I remember it was the work as a whole that drove people mad- the mood itself (of the few fragments that were ever made available for non-fictional readers) was more wistful and decadent. If your exciting theory holds true, I would expect Illyrio to be doomed, but true to his own moral compass.

He is the King in Yellow, he hasn't read it, in other words.

[Sly Wren]

For sure is.  I read the section again and definitely have more information.  If I'm reading it correctly, Westeros was first populated by maroons (escaped slaves and shipwrecked sailors), and then ruled by the purple rulers in the Western Hills (the Daynes), then the scarlet emperors (the Targaryans) and that brings us to the the first game of thrones book where it was ruled at the same time by the grey, indigo and pearl white-emperors - Starks (Rob as King in the North), Baratheons and Varys (as if we didn't know)!  Aside from the maroons, which would have been a loose collection of people under a leader at the southern points of Dorne, that means the last kings of Westeros who ruled the entire country were in fact the Daynes.  Kings of the First Men!  Then the country breaks up into separate kingdoms and the Andals come, but there never is a high king again until the Targaryans (and they're descended from the Kings of the First Men themselves if they returned to Essos from Westeros).  And we get the escaped slave connection again.  This is really exciting for me because of that post I put up that was speculative about most of the First Men being escaped slaves from the BS Empire and the purple-eyed people (the Daynes) became their leaders and saviours.  Purple sails, baby!

 

As well, the three current lines contending they're the emperors of Yi Ti,  which I am reading as the major threats to Westeros right now, come from the azure faction (the Others), the yellow faction (Illyrio, and with a definite evil twist), and the orange faction (Doran).  I seem to have underestimated Doran.  He's playing for the whole thing. I'll have to take a look at that Dornish Master Plan theory again.

Okay--this is just spectacular. Now I need to find time for a re-read of the World Book.

 

If these metaphors hold (which seems very likely), it's going to be interesting to figure out why the Daynes are not mentioned as key rulers. If I'm remembering right (always an iffy prospect), the stony Dornish are mentioned as ancient first men and former rulers--but not too much focus. As you said elsewhere--they seem hidden. Am now wondering why. Braavos and its purple sails (again--good catch!) stayed somewhat hidden--is there a correlation, I wonder?

 

The entire OP is fabulous, too. Congrats!  :cheers:  

[Lady Barbrey]

Of course, Azor Ahai is (theory) a horned lord himself, so it's possible part of the Garth legend grows from him, as weird as that sounds. Still, Garth the Green must be found. He's the one who established the green skin horned men on the Isle of Faces, so he's pretty freaking important. He must be on there somewhere.

Perhaps he's in a different part?  I've just been concentrating on the Yi Ti to Asshai parts.  Ha!  This is from the GOT WIki.  George is saying that Yi Ti is an Asian place, and says "You will want to get The World of Ice and Fire when it comes out ... in the "Other Places" section you will find a lot of material about Yi Ti, the Island of Leng and the Plains of the Jogos Nhai, which you may find of interest."  Yes, it's an Asian place!  But these are the specific places I'm finding echoes of - in fact sometimes specific parallels to - Westeros. He's a sly dude.

[LmL]

Perhaps he's in a different part?  I've just been concentrating on the Yi Ti to Asshai parts.  Ha!  This is from the GOT WIki.  George is saying that Yi Ti is an Asian place, and says "You will want to get The World of Ice and Fire when it comes out ... in the "Other Places" section you will find a lot of material about Yi Ti, the Island of Leng and the Plains of the Jogos Nhai, which you may find of interest."  Yes, it's an Asian place!  But these are the specific places I'm finding echoes of - in fact sometimes specific parallels to - Westeros. He's a sly dude.

 

Very, very sneaky. His SSM's are almost worthless, more damage than help, really. He enjoys toying with us and playing the innocent. "Oh you know, I don't outline anything, I just make shit up as I go." RIGHT. Sure, uh huh. WHATEVER, George.