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Do you consider these characters villains?


INCBlackbird

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There are a lot of Grey characters in asoiaf, it's one of the things I love about it. and I think it'd be interesting to know how many people consider certain (or all) of these grey characters villains. i've made a list with characters that I've seen debates about on the subject. I'm leaving out obvious characters (goodguys and badguys) but if you have a controversial opinion on one feel free to mention them and explain why. i'm also sure that i've missed some one this list so feel free to add anyone you think fits. So here we go, do you consider these characters villains and why? also, it would be handy to add your personal definition of what a villain is, because I've noticed that it depends from person to person, which values you hold highest and so on.

Jaime Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Theon Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Aeron Greyjoy
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Stannis Baratheon
Daenerys Targaryan

note: please refrain from personal attacks, I know this is a subject that could get out of hand as people tend to take it personal when others say negativve things about their favs (myself included) but let's try to have a civil discussion about this.
 

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Ah the only one that really leans toward villain for me is Baelish, and that is because, from what we've learned about him, he is willing to do anything - screw anyone over, kill anyone and climb over their bodies - to get what he wants. And all he seems to want is power or something else equally selfish or he just likes to sow misery. I just don't see any redeeming motivations for the lives lost in the conflict he started. 

The other characters on the list have all done bad things, but some of their motivations are justifiable and understandable. The ends justifies the means type approach that Twyin employs can be reprehensible, but I did think he was sincere in his comments about how crazy it is that killing less people at dinner is better than killing more in an going war. 

Sorry to not be able to add anything more, but it's the last day of my short work week and my ability to think is waning quickly.  

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There are a lot of Grey characters in asoiaf, it's one of the things I love about it. and I think it'd be interesting to know how many people consider certain (or all) of these grey characters villains. i've made a list with characters that I've seen debates about on the subject. I'm leaving out obvious characters (goodguys and badguys) but if you have a controversial opinion on one feel free to mention them and explain why. i'm also sure that i've missed some one this list so feel free to add anyone you think fits. So here we go, do you consider these characters villains and why? also, it would be handy to add your personal definition of what a villain is, because I've noticed that it depends from person to person, which values you hold highest and so on.

Jaime Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Theon Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Aeron Greyjoy
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Stannis Baratheon
Daenerys Targaryan

note: please refrain from personal attacks, I know this is a subject that could get out of hand as people tend to take it personal when others say negativve things about their favs (myself included) but let's try to have a civil discussion about this.
 

 

I bolded the couple I would think as exact bad guys. No matter where Theon is at now he is a dirt bag and deserves it, Victarion has the IQ of a 3 year old. So wont bold him. Little Finger is an all around prick, who started every bad chaos driven event that has happened in the series. Starting with Arryn. I cant even say Cersei is out right bad, may be on her period 24/7 but always loved her kids and looked out for what she believed was best for her families interest (for the most part, she could honestly go either way, she has done plenty of evil shit so to each is their own)

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Jaime Lannister - reformed villain - attempted murder of a child, but to save the life of his own three children, which makes it somewhat justifiable.  Otherwise, has done nothing wrong.


Tywin Lannister - villain - has done no good to justify all the evil stuff he has done.  Has gone above and beyond the level of pragmatic scheming that is normal for most nobles.

Tyrion Lannister - Villain.  Ordered the murder of an innocent to keep a secret instead of, you know, moving his whore out of the city.  Raped slaves, broke guest right.

Cersei Lannister - villain - explained but not excused by her insanity due to being exposed to prophecy as a child and being an abused wife.


Petyr Baelish - villain - has had innocents killed to support his schemes.  Intentionally cruel to an insane woman who loved him immediately before killing her.


Varys - Probable villain - if he is requesting children with their torns torn out to do his work, he is definitely a villain.  I have a theory that the "little birds" story is misdirection to hide his true sources, though - whenever we see something happen that Varys finds out about, there is an anonymous servant mentioned being in the scene.


Theon Greyjoy - villain.  Child murderer and rapist.  Murdered multiple people who trusted him to keep his dark secret, which happened because he didn't want to appear "weak".  Among the lowest of the low.


Victarion Greyjoy - villain.  Killed his own wife, killed multiple slaves for disgusting reasons.


Aeron Greyjoy - Not a villain - so far has not done anything particularly evil.


Bran Stark - gray area - not a villain, but guilty of an evil act - slightly excused by his being a child.


Arya Stark - not so much a villain, but a broken and dangerous person responsible for the deaths of multiple innocents.  If she was an adult, she'd firmly be in the villain camp, but she has the same excuses child soldiers have for their atrocities.


Stannis Baratheon - villain - hypocritical betrayer, kinslayer, has people burned alive to serve a god he may not even believe in.  Refused to help his brother when he needed his counsel, and then murdered his other brother for trying to usurp the same throne.


Daenerys Targaryan - villain - had an innocent man's daughter tortured in front of him.  Crucified 160+ people admittedly not knowing whether or not the ones she killed were responsible for or speaking against the atrocity that she was getting revenge for.  Idolizes and loves a monster.


 

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At this point, I would argue that Cersei, Littlefinger and possibly Varys are villains. They have their good points (Cersei loves her children, Varys seems to really want to do the best for the realm itself, Baelish won't stand for anyone dishonoring Sansa), but that doesn't change the fact they are villains. I think Theon Greyjoy was going down that path (whether intentionally or not), but his Reekification curbed that. I also think Stannis and Daenerys might go down that road in the end, and possibly Bran and Arya as well.

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Jaime Lannister - reformed villain - attempted murder of a child, but to save the life of his own three children, which makes it somewhat justifiable.  Otherwise, has done nothing wrong.


Tywin Lannister - villain - has done no good to justify all the evil stuff he has done.  Has gone above and beyond the level of pragmatic scheming that is normal for most nobles.

Tyrion Lannister - Villain.  Ordered the murder of an innocent to keep a secret instead of, you know, moving his whore out of the city.  Raped slaves, broke guest right.

Cersei Lannister - villain - explained but not excused by her insanity due to being exposed to prophecy as a child and being an abused wife.


Petyr Baelish - villain - has had innocents killed to support his schemes.  Intentionally cruel to an insane woman who loved him immediately before killing her.


Varys - Probable villain - if he is requesting children with their torns torn out to do his work, he is definitely a villain.  I have a theory that the "little birds" story is misdirection to hide his true sources, though - whenever we see something happen that Varys finds out about, there is an anonymous servant mentioned being in the scene.


Theon Greyjoy - villain.  Child murderer and rapist.  Murdered multiple people who trusted him to keep his dark secret, which happened because he didn't want to appear "weak".  Among the lowest of the low.


Victarion Greyjoy - villain.  Killed his own wife, killed multiple slaves for disgusting reasons.


Aeron Greyjoy - Not a villain - so far has not done anything particularly evil.


Bran Stark - gray area - not a villain, but guilty of an evil act - slightly excused by his being a child.


Arya Stark - not so much a villain, but a broken and dangerous person responsible for the deaths of multiple innocents.  If she was an adult, she'd firmly be in the villain camp, but she has the same excuses child soldiers have for their atrocities.


Stannis Baratheon - villain - hypocritical betrayer, kinslayer, has people burned alive to serve a god he may not even believe in.  Refused to help his brother when he needed his counsel, and then murdered his other brother for trying to usurp the same throne.


Daenerys Targaryan - villain - had an innocent man's daughter tortured in front of him.  Crucified 160+ people admittedly not knowing whether or not the ones she killed were responsible for or speaking against the atrocity that she was getting revenge for.  Idolizes and loves a monster.


 

All you just did is pick out every flaw that every character has or what bad things they have done opposed to the good. In your line of thinking there must only be 1 or 2 "good guys" left in the whole story

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Jaime Lannister - villain, throw Bran out the tower and fooled around with the king's wife.
Tywin Lannister - villain, responsible for the deaths of Ellia, Rhaenys, and the Tarbecks.
Tyrion Lannister - grey, has done good things but not enough to wash out the bad.
Cersei Lannister - villain
Petyr Baelish - villain
Varys - hero, good guy, wants to right a wrong and restore the right rulers
Theon Greyjoy - villain
Victarion Greyjoy - villain
Aeron Greyjoy - grey
Bran Stark - grey
Arya Stark -villain
Stannis Baratheon - grey, it's not proven that he burns **** in the novels, if he does he goes black/villain.
Daenerys Targaryan - hero, gave freedom to millions of slaves, the most good anyone has ever done in the world of ice and fire

Brienne - hero, sticks to her promises

Barristan - hero

Jorah - grey

Samwell - grey, he broke his vows, laid with Gillie

Maester Aemon - hero

Jon Snow - grey, betrayed his duties and his comrades for a little girl, selfish.

Mance - villain

Renly - villain

Robert - grey

Robb Stark - grey

 

 

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"Villain" is a very subjective term, and it's especially subjective in a world full of shades of grey and three-dimensional characters and redemptive arcs. On your list, I'd describe only Cersei and Littlefinger as villains. Rest are too complex.

Cersei: Martin gives her no redeeming qualities. She's cruel to her subjects, friends and family. She's vicious to Tommen. Her "love" for Jaime is selfish and destructive and evidence of narcissism.  I don't believe that Cersei does a single good thing anywhere in the novels. There is nothing there but "mememe" and "I'm better than you, and I'll poke your eyes out/send you to the mad doctor for vivisection if you don't agree."

Littlefinger: Selfish, chaotic evil. Like Cersei, he has no redeeming qualities. Unlike Cersei, he does have a brain, which makes him fun to read, but in no way does this make him less a villain. Where Cersei is deadly because her stupidity compounds her evil, LF is deadly because his brilliance compounds his evil. 

 

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Ah the only one that really leans toward villain for me is Baelish, and that is because, from what we've learned about him, he is willing to do anything - screw anyone over, kill anyone and climb over their bodies - to get what he wants. And all he seems to want is power or something else equally selfish or he just likes to sow misery. I just don't see any redeeming motivations for the lives lost in the conflict he started. 

The other characters on the list have all done bad things, but some of their motivations are justifiable and understandable. The ends justifies the means type approach that Twyin employs can be reprehensible, but I did think he was sincere in his comments about how crazy it is that killing less people at dinner is better than killing more in an going war. 

Sorry to not be able to add anything more, but it's the last day of my short work week and my ability to think is waning quickly.  

I agree with this completely. Although I also consider Cersei a villain on this list. I think both of them are psychopaths, though Baelish is pragmatic while Cersei is a complete emotional mess with no self control whatsoever. What strikes me about Petyr though is his backstory. I get the idea that as a young boy he was a romantic who thought that the good guy always gets the girl in the end. But if that was the case he's turned around completely. I think he has the attitude off "whatever I can get, I'm entitled too no matter how many lives I have to sacrifice in the process" He serves no one but himself and he's good at it.

When it comes to Tywin, He's right in the middle for me. I can never decide whether or not I consider him a villain, he's definitly close but maybe not completely there. Mainly because while I don't at all agree with his idea that the ends justify the means, I do think that HE believes he's doing the right thing for his family, while with Baelish I think he knows he's doing something wrong but simply doesn't care.

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I bolded the couple I would think as exact bad guys. No matter where Theon is at now he is a dirt bag and deserves it, Victarion has the IQ of a 3 year old. So wont bold him. Little Finger is an all around prick, who started every bad chaos driven event that has happened in the series. Starting with Arryn. I cant even say Cersei is out right bad, may be on her period 24/7 but always loved her kids and looked out for what she believed was best for her families interest (for the most part, she could honestly go either way, she has done plenty of evil shit so to each is their own)

why exactly is Theon "a dirt bag"? What sets him appart from people like Jaime, Tyrion...? I would argue that Theon is very similar to Cersei actually, in the sense that they're both an emotional mess who lack any kind of self control. The only difference is that Theon actually feels guilty and Cersei doesn't, Cersei only displays self pity. So yeah, why is Theon a villain according to you and not Cersei (and many of the others).

I agree about littlefinger though, I really like the character but he caused the death of millions of people without any kind of remorse.

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I agree with this completely. Although I also consider Cersei a villain on this list. I think both of them are psychopaths, though Baelish is pragmatic while Cersei is a complete emotional mess with no self control whatsoever. What strikes me about Petyr though is his backstory. I get the idea that as a young boy he was a romantic who thought that the good guy always gets the girl in the end. But if that was the case he's turned around completely. I think he has the attitude off "whatever I can get, I'm entitled too no matter how many lives I have to sacrifice in the process" He serves no one but himself and he's good at it.
When it comes to Tywin, He's right in the middle for me. I can never decide whether or not I consider him a villain, he's definitly close but maybe not completely there. Mainly because while I don't at all agree with his idea that the ends justify the means, I do think that HE believes he's doing the right thing for his family, while with Baelish I think he knows he's doing something wrong but simply doesn't care.

Cersei's love for her kids gives her positive points, but she has descended down a path of crazy that there might be no coming back from. I think her ultimate tragedy would be totally losing her shit and killing Tommen herself like she was going to do in GoT's Blackwater. 

Baelish did have some hardships, but they were nothing compared to what the Stark kids have been through, and I don't see any of them using and disposing of someone who truly loved them like he did to Lysa. He thinks he loved Catelyn, but love and lust are two very, very different things. The idea of Catelyn, he wanted, but who knows how much he would have liked the real her. 

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I agree with this completely. Although I also consider Cersei a villain on this list. I think both of them are psychopaths, though Baelish is pragmatic while Cersei is a complete emotional mess with no self control whatsoever. What strikes me about Petyr though is his backstory. I get the idea that as a young boy he was a romantic who thought that the good guy always gets the girl in the end. But if that was the case he's turned around completely. I think he has the attitude off "whatever I can get, I'm entitled too no matter how many lives I have to sacrifice in the process" He serves no one but himself and he's good at it.
When it comes to Tywin, He's right in the middle for me. I can never decide whether or not I consider him a villain, he's definitly close but maybe not completely there. Mainly because while I don't at all agree with his idea that the ends justify the means, I do think that HE believes he's doing the right thing for his family, while with Baelish I think he knows he's doing something wrong but simply doesn't care.

This is a good point. I mean...yeah, you put psychopaths who harm others away so that they won't continue doing that, but can you hold them responsible, if whatever disease is affecting their brain takes away their free will?

I guess to be a villain, you need free will. I'm not sure if Cersei does, which would make her perfect for an institution, but possibly not for villain status. LF is trickier. I think he did love Cat, in a way that (imo) Cersei couldn't love Jaime or her kids. That makes him more culpable.

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Jaime Lannister - anti-hero
Tywin Lannister - anti-hero
Tyrion Lannister - anti-hero
Cersei Lannister - villain
Petyr Baelish - villain
Varys - villain
Theon Greyjoy - to complex
Victarion Greyjoy - to dumb
Aeron Greyjoy - to mad
Bran Stark - to boring
Arya Stark - to stereotype
Stannis Baratheon - anti-villain
Daenerys Targaryan - anti-villain

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"Villain" is a very subjective term, and it's especially subjective in a world full of shades of grey and three-dimensional characters and redemptive arcs. tbh, On your list, I'd describe only Cersei and Littlefinger as villains. Rest are too complex.

Cersei: Martin gives her no redeeming qualities. She's cruel to her subjects, friends and family. She's vicious to Tommen. Her "love" for Jaime is selfish and destructive and evidence of narcissism.  I don't believe that Cersei does a single good thing anywhere in the novels. There is nothing there but "mememe" and "I'm better than you, and I'll poke your eyes out/send you to the mad doctor for vivisection if you don't agree."

Littlefinger: Selfish, chaotic evil. Like Cersei, he has no redeeming qualities. Unlike Cersei, he does have a brain, which makes him fun to read, but in no way does this make him less a villain. Where Cersei is deadly because of her stupidity compounds her evil, LF is deadly because his brilliance compounds his evil. 

 

I completely agree with this actually. and yeah I think it's very much a subjective term, that's why I asked int he OP to define what it means to you because I think it very much depends on your own values, also how harsh you are with giving someone that label in general. Because a lot of people will say that when one of these characters has done a bad thing they're immediatly a villain. Personally, I only consider characters villains when they mean to do evil things. When they lack empathy and will throw anyone to the wolves to further their own agenda or if they, like Ramsay even enjoy torturing/killing people. So for me from this list it's also Littlefinger and Cersei who are the villains.

exactly! Cersei is a narcissist who lacks empathy in my opinion. I don't even consider her love for her children real love because she only loves them as an extension of herself, just like with Jaime. I think she doesn't even grasp the idea of other people having emotions just like her. She considers them cardboard characters who's only person is to serve her goals. I think the narcissism is shown especially when she's present while Qyburn tortures the blue bard. she feels like turning away because she doesn't like the sight of blood. but not one second does she feel bad or at all sorry for the blue bard, in fact, she feels sorry for herself that she has to witness it because she's a lioness!

Nothing to add about Baelish, he's extremely capable if you ask me. I enjoy him, though I actually enjoy Cersei even more than him, I tend to like emotionally unstable characters who constantly lie to themselves.

For me

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All you just did is pick out every flaw that every character has or what bad things they have done opposed to the good. In your line of thinking there must only be 1 or 2 "good guys" left in the whole story

Well, the OP did ask for explanations as to why we thought the characters were villainous, what do you expect?  In my opinion, some evil acts cannot be compensated for by doing other nice things or for feeling Really Bad About It.  Which of the bad things that I listed do you not consider villainous?  Every one of them that I listed as a villain has murdered innocents for non-self preservation reasons.

 

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This is a good point. I mean...yeah, you put psychopaths who harm others away so that they won't continue doing that, but can you hold them responsible, if whatever disease is affecting their brain takes away their free will?

I guess to be a villain, you need free will. I'm not sure if Cersei does, which would make her perfect for an institution, but possibly not for villain status. LF is trickier. I think he did love Cat, in a way that (imo) Cersei couldn't love Jaime or her kids. That makes him more culpable.

I think it's complicated because if you get into the whole discussion about whether or not someone is responsible for their own actions due to the fact that they have a personality disorder you can go very far. in the end we're all a product of society, we all have problems that make us do things that we shouldn't (of course for most of us that includes spending too much money and other rather arbitrary things) I suffer from an anxiety disorder that makes certain things very hard for me and from my perspective i think that I both deserve sympathy and understanding from the people around me for that but I am also still just as much responsible for my own actions and should be called out on those. having this anxiety disorder doesn't give me a free pass. and I extend that to all personality disorders including antisocial personality disorder. They're still responsible for their own actions no matter what made them that way, but I can also be sympathetic to what happened to them that made them that way (even when it's rather small things because I consider what happened to petyr rather small compared to what other characters had to endure, but I still feel sympathy that he had to go through that, same with Cersei) And you can do both. it's not so black and white that you have to say "this person was not at all responsible" or "this person was completely responsible" it's way more complex than that if you ask me.

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Arya Stark has killed innocent people just randomly run down and assaulted strangers with no provocation?  Never put her life on the line to save the Innocent?

 

Jaime Lannister - anti-hero-attempted to kill a child to hide war starting infildelity.
Tywin Lannister - anti-hero- gang rapest and actual child murderer on multiple occasions
Tyrion Lannister - anti-hero probably the only anti hero who is very anti on the hero part.
Cersei Lannister - villain has actually ordered the death of babies directly.

 

It's comparisons like these that make threads like this troll bait.

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Well, the OP did ask for explanations as to why we thought the characters were villainous, what do you expect?  In my opinion, some evil acts cannot be compensated for by doing other nice things or for feeling Really Bad About It.  Which of the bad things that I listed do you not consider villainous?  Every one of them that I listed as a villain has murdered innocents for non-self preservation reasons.

 

Do you take circemstances into acount or not at all? just wondering. Because personally with a lot of the characters you mentioned I think the situation is way more complex than that they killed someone for non self preservation reasons. But that's just me. you do seem to be consistent.

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Arya Stark has killed innocent people just randomly run down and assaulted strangers with no provocation?  Never put her life on the line to save the Innocent?

 

Jaime Lannister - anti-hero-attempted to kill a child to hide war starting infildelity.
Tywin Lannister - anti-hero- gang rapest and actual child murderer on multiple occasions
Tyrion Lannister - anti-hero probably the only anti hero who is very anti on the hero part.
Cersei Lannister - villain has actually ordered the death of babies directly.

 

It's comparisons like these that make threads like this troll bait.

It's not about making comparisons. there's certain characters in that list that I would not at all put on the same line as certain other characters. I merely picked out the characters that I have seen controversy about regarding this topic.

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 Jaime- Peacefully captured Riverrun and it's neighbors. Fights outlaws but not directly for Cersei. A hero of the realm.

Tywin- Raped his son (or at least caused him to become one, depends how you look at it). Villain 

Tyrion- A true hero. Not worried about honor like Halfhand. He saved the realm once and is planning on it again

Cersei- Collects heads of dwarvs and children. Villain.

Petyr- I wouldn't call him a villain. He's a far cry from a hero though. (He did save Sansa) Grey. (Ned forced his hand)

Varys- Same as Petyr, he's grimey but saved Tyrion. Grey

Theon- Saved Jeyne, hero of the realm

Victarian- rapes and murders, but no kinslayer, otherwise he wouldn't be a villain. Grey

Aeron- Dudes nuts and an ass, but no villain. I suppose he's a hero to his people.

Bran. Uh, maybe villain? He forces himself in Hodor. Eats human. And chills with skeletons and stuff. Chances are he's a hero though.

Arya- Crazy murderer, but I wouldn't say villain. Grey.

Stannis- Burns weirwood and people alike. He fights villains, but that doesn't make him not one. Grey (somehow)

Dany- Breaker of chains. The Silver Queen is as heroic as they come

 

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