Who is the hooded man in Winterfell

[Curled Finger]

First time I read the book I thought, “Benjen has finally shown up” because he had been missing since the first book.

Then I read some of the ideas people had posted about the hooded man. Then re-read books a few times.

Once I thought he might be Robett Glover come to speak with Manderly. Someone pointed out to me that Glover is probably with Manderly forces. Waiting.

Another time I thought Alliser Thorne because I think he pulled a switch in the stable & didn’t go ranging. A poster kinda convinced me that Thorne was most likely at CB pulling the strings on Jon’s assassination attempt.

Blackfish, that one didn’t work out either. I couldn’t figure out how BF would be able to get into WF. His accent would be wrong, among other things.

I never bought into the Durden theory.

Now, I have settled on he was just a man put in place to muddy the waters about the killings going on in WF.  What I mean by that is back when Theon took WF and Ramsey was pretending to be Reek there were 3 killings in WF. In the chapter “A Ghost in WF” there are 4 killings with the 5^th one happening in Theon I.

Theon says:

I don’t think the man was Hallis, the one in charge of Eddard’s bones, because I think Eddard’s bones were put into the crypt between the time Ramsey burned WF and the Bolton’s returned for the wedding.

Whoever the man is, he knew Theon. He placed his hand on his dagger and said, “Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer” and accuses Theon of being false. To me that sounds like something Blackfish would say. I just can't come up with a rational explanation for BF to be in WF.

Anyhoo, I like reading about the hooded man topic.

 

 

I don't think I've ever heard Alistair Thorne as a possibility.   You get points for original reasoning on that one.   All your reasons for suspecting and rejecting are good.   Am I correct in surmising you think the HM is just some random Northman who has no real bearing on the story?  

 

Brienne doesn't know who Harwin is, but I would be shocked if he is not the northman in service to LSH at the end of AFFC.

AFFC Brienne VIII

Earlier in the chapter Thoros mentions Harwin when discussing Cat's revival.

The young northman also serves as LSH's interpreter during Brienne's "trial".

 

This quote thing rarely works for me anymore.    This is precisely why it's fun to rehash topics with the newer readers.    You get sides and angles you never could have caught without the other discerning eyes.    Thanks for ripping my favorite apart Nittanian--I can only respect an opinion so well laid out.    I am sticking with Harwin as my favorite.    I don't think your guy and Harwin are the same guy.    And I could be completely wrong on this, but I'm thinking Harwin was closer to Ned's age which can't really be considered young.   I'm noticing for the 1st time ever maybe via your quotes how curious it is that the adjective young comes about as a descriptor for this Northman.    Great now I have to go back and listen to all of the Harwin stuff again.    I have to ask you since you are obviously a student of this, who do you think the HM is?   

   

[Clegane'sPup]

Am I correct in surmising you think the HM is just some random Northman who has no real bearing on the story?  

Yep, because I think the chapter title is referencing the similarities that took place between killings at WF during the time that Theon was in charge and the time that Roose is in charge.

Hope that makes sense since I too am having difficulties with technology.

[Curled Finger]

Yep, because I think the chapter title is referencing the similarities that took place between killings at WF during the time that Theon was in charge and the time that Roose is in charge.

Hope that makes sense since I too am having difficulties with technology.

Thanks, it does make sense and we all seem to be having trouble with this new technology.   I hope it's either fixed or I just figure it out soon.  

[Nittanian]

This quote thing rarely works for me anymore.    This is precisely why it's fun to rehash topics with the newer readers.    You get sides and angles you never could have caught without the other discerning eyes.    Thanks for ripping my favorite apart Nittanian--I can only respect an opinion so well laid out.    I am sticking with Harwin as my favorite.    I don't think your guy and Harwin are the same guy.    And I could be completely wrong on this, but I'm thinking Harwin was closer to Ned's age which can't really be considered young.   I'm noticing for the 1st time ever maybe via your quotes how curious it is that the adjective young comes about as a descriptor for this Northman.    Great now I have to go back and listen to all of the Harwin stuff again.    I have to ask you since you are obviously a student of this, who do you think the HM is?   

I'm not sure; I go back and forth between the "Theon Durden" and random northman theories, but I wouldn't mind being surprised if he plays a role in ADOS as a disguised character.

I don't think Harwin's age has been specified, but in AGOT he is a member of Ned's household guard, competes in the Hand's tourney, and is the son of the still-working Hullen, master of horse. When Arya meets him in ASOS, she thinks,

Under the beard and the tangled hair was the face of Hullen's son, who used to lead her pony around the yard, ride at quintain with Jon and Robb, and drink too much on feast days. He was thinner, harder somehow, and at Winterfell he had never worn a beard, but it was him - her father's man.

Since Thoros states Harwin convinced Beric to revive Lady Stark, I think GRRM has Harwin remaining by LSH's side as the close servant and interpreter. 

[Jamie Lannister]

I always liked the theory that it's the unseen Miller; Theon fucked his wife and returned years later to murder her along with her children. If anyone in the North has a reason to hold a grudge and despise the guy on a personal level, it'd be him.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Old Nan, obviously.

Hidden knowledge and hidden powers, that one.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

I'm not sure; I go back and forth between the "Theon Durden" and random northman theories, but I wouldn't mind being surprised if he plays a role in ADOS as a disguised character.

I don't think Harwin's age has been specified, but in AGOT he is a member of Ned's household guard, competes in the Hand's tourney, and is the son of the still-working Hullen, master of horse. When Arya meets him in ASOS, she thinks,

Since Thoros states Harwin convinced Beric to revive Lady Stark, I think GRRM has Harwin remaining by LSH's side as the close servant and interpreter. 

Harwin tells Arya in ASOS that he heard rumours about Ned and Ashara and their romance at Harrenhal back when he was younger than she is.

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

Harrenhal occurred in 281, and Arya is 10 in ASOS. Which means that the earliest possible birth year for Harwin is 271, making him at most 29 years old. Personally though I'd say that he's like 22ish seeing as Arya says that he used to walk her and her pony when she was little and learning to ride, that he'd ride at quintain with Jon and Robb, and that he always got too drunk during feasts. Those activities all seem a little weird to me if he's around 29 instead of near his early 20's seeing as the last time Arya saw Harwin he'd have been 20 then in AGOT, and I'm just guesstimating that she probably learned to ride when she was around 5 which would make Harwin 15 when he walks her horse which seems normal enough for basically what would otherwise be an apprentice to the master of horse, at most 20 when he's jousting with Robb and Jon who are 14 but they also train with 19 year old Theon so that's fine, and at most 20 when he was getting too drunk during feasts which also sounds about right for someone under 20 lol.

And even if he is 29 instead of 22, he could still be described as young. Edmure Tully for instance is repeatedly called young by many people despite the fact that he's like 33 years old.

"Save your royal breath. You'd do as well talking to a chamberpot." Lord Walder shifted his gaze to the others. "Well, Lady Catelyn, I see you have returned to us. And young Ser Edmure, the victor of the Stone Mill. Lord Tully now, I'll need to remember that. You're the fifth Lord Tully I've known. I outlived the other four, heh. Your bride's about here somewhere. I suppose you want a look at her."

[joluoto2]

It's not Benjen. He is not going to go missing North of the Wall, just to suddenly appear South of the Wall in completely unrelated storyline.

[Butterfreak]

I've always liked the Theon Durden theory, but in the end I don't think the man's identity really matters.  It's just a random guy who confronts Theon and creates more internal conflict within his mind.

[bemused]

It's not Benjen. He is not going to go missing North of the Wall, just to suddenly appear South of the Wall in completely unrelated storyline.

Oh, you think it's unrelated, do you ?  I don't.

I have no idea if this link will work, but  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93982-benjen-is-a-leader-of-the-gnc-and-the-hooded-man/

 

[Makk]

I like the idea of Theon Durden, it seems a nice twist in the character development of Theon and him not being quite as broken by Ramsay as would otherwise be evident. Yet at the same time being even more insane.

I would also like it if it was Harwin or anyone else sent by LSH. The idea LSH has sent someone to infiltrate Winterfell would be an awesome plot development and Harwin would be the obvious choice.

So I am happy with either of those but don't really have a compelling argument or even a gut feeling of who it is.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I believe Theon is unreliable POV (like Sansa) after his torture. Maybe he hallucinates/sees things that do not exist/misremembers what he saw. I think the Hooded man was Theon or he doesn't exist at all.

[Curled Finger]

I always liked the theory that it's the unseen Miller; Theon fucked his wife and returned years later to murder her along with her children. If anyone in the North has a reason to hold a grudge and despise the guy on a personal level, it'd be him.

Don't think I've ever heard that one before. Oh heck yeah.   It's brilliant!  

 

Harwin tells Arya in ASOS that he heard rumours about Ned and Ashara and their romance at Harrenhal back when he was younger than she is.

Harrenhal occurred in 281, and Arya is 10 in ASOS. Which means that the earliest possible birth year for Harwin is 271, making him at most 29 years old. Personally though I'd say that he's like 22ish seeing as Arya says that he used to walk her and her pony when she was little and learning to ride, that he'd ride at quintain with Jon and Robb, and that he always got too drunk during feasts. Those activities all seem a little weird to me if he's around 29 instead of near his early 20's seeing as the last time Arya saw Harwin he'd have been 20 then in AGOT, and I'm just guesstimating that she probably learned to ride when she was around 5 which would make Harwin 15 when he walks her horse which seems normal enough for basically what would otherwise be an apprentice to the master of horse, at most 20 when he's jousting with Robb and Jon who are 14 but they also train with 19 year old Theon so that's fine, and at most 20 when he was getting too drunk during feasts which also sounds about right for someone under 20 lol.

And even if he is 29 instead of 22, he could still be described as young. Edmure Tully for instance is repeatedly called young by many people despite the fact that he's like 33 years old.

Let's see, I think Ned was 17 - 18 during the rebellion.  Current day is 14-15 years later.  Ned's no more than 35 - 36 and isn't commonly considered a young man.   I think Harwin would have to be at the lower end of your time line at 22 to be considered young but it works.   Thanks for the math on that KOTNS.   Harwin is STILL my favorite.  Double down time..especially if he is the young North man with LSH.   You guys keep this up and I'm going to have to start defending Harwin with a more semantic approach to the statement.   

In that GRRM hasn't revealed the Hooded Man this guy could be anyone.  I don't think we can just say the HM isn't a psychotic break or Harwin or Benjen (the miller, Hallis, Maester or anyone) out of hand.   The debate and supporting evidence are a lot more fun than the reveal this time.   

[joluoto2]

Oh, you think it's unrelated, do you ?  I don't.

I have no idea if this link will work, but  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93982-benjen-is-a-leader-of-the-gnc-and-the-hooded-man/

 

Why would Benjen, a brother of the Night's Watch turn up conspiring South of the Wall after disappearing on a ranging North of the Wall. Wouldn't he much more likely just arrive a  the Wall and report his findings to the Watch. Not buying it for a second.

[desire]

Caitlyn Jenner

[Lord of Westeros]

Yep, because I think the chapter title is referencing the similarities that took place between killings at WF during the time that Theon was in charge and the time that Roose is in charge.

Hope that makes sense since I too am having difficulties with technology.

ASOIAF isn't like other books which have chapters with names that describe the chapter, the chapter names are either the person's name or a descriptive title of the person who is the POV character of that chapter. Examples: The Watcher, The Drowned Man, The King's Prize, The Kraken's Daughter. All these are chapter names that describe the person and not the chapter. By that logic, the ghost of Winterfell is Theon. And since the only person who can be classified a ghost is the hooded man. So Theon is the hooded man.

[Clegane'sPup]

ASOIAF isn't like other books which have chapters with names that describe the chapter, the chapter names are either the person's name or a descriptive title of the person who is the POV character of that chapter. Examples: The Watcher, The Drowned Man, The King's Prize, The Kraken's Daughter. All these are chapter names that describe the person and not the chapter. By that logic, the ghost of Winterfell is Theon. And since the only person who can be classified a ghost is the hooded man. So Theon is the hooded man.

I agree with part of what you say, but not all.  Theon referes to ghost/ghosts in WF many times. He even refers to himself as a ghost [of his former self] in The Turncloak, but that does not mean that he is only person he classifies as a ghost.

 

Ice crunched beneath his boots, and a sudden gust pushed back his hood, as if a ghost had plucked at him with frozen fingers, hungry to gaze upon his face. Winterfell was full of ghosts for Theon Greyjoy. Prince of WF

He had always heard that the iron in the sword kept the spirits of the dead locked within their tombs. If a sword was missing … There are ghosts in Winterfell. And I am one of them. Turncloak

He was trapped here, with the ghosts. The old ghosts from the crypts and the younger ones that he had made himself, Mikken and Farlen, Gynir Rednose, Aggar, Gelmarr the Grim, the miller's wife from Acorn Water and her two young sons, and all the rest. My work. My ghosts. A Ghost in WF

Do that, Theon thought. Ride out into the snow and die. Leave Winterfell to me and the ghosts.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him?

"The ghosts," he blurted. "They whisper to me. They … they know my name." A Ghost in WF

Theon wondered if he would ever see the Drowned God's watery halls, or if his ghost would linger here at Winterfell. Dead is dead. Better dead than Reek. Theon I

 

He knows the story about the crypts, he acknowledges responsibility of his part in the deaths of other people, sees Bran’s face in the tree and he would rather be dead than be Reek. So, nope, I don’t think Theon is the “man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him.”

 

 

[AerionBrightflameII]

ASOIAF isn't like other books which have chapters with names that describe the chapter, the chapter names are either the person's name or a descriptive title of the person who is the POV character of that chapter. Examples: The Watcher, The Drowned Man, The King's Prize, The Kraken's Daughter. All these are chapter names that describe the person and not the chapter. By that logic, the ghost of Winterfell is Theon. And since the only person who can be classified a ghost is the hooded man. So Theon is the hooded man.

Nailed it.

---------------------------------

It is not future Theon. He laughed when he saw Theons fingers, if you came back from the future and saw yourself a maimed crippled wretch of a human you wouldn't think: "Haha i remember those days." I can think of any plausible way he came back from the future either.

 

It wasn't the Blackfish, Theon served Brynden Tully as one of his outriders and scouts, he had ridden with him so he would have recognized him.

 

I Think Benjen is dead so it can't be him, also Theon has seen him too..It wasn't Mance either

 

Im leaning toward Howland Reed but he wasn't depicted as small ....IIRC.

[Northern_Star]

I'm tending towards Jamie Lannister. I think any of Robbs followers or Notherners would have simply cut Theons throat.

The Hooded man has no pity for Theon IMO, he actually mocks him when Theon refers to his amputations and his replies are filed with sarcasm.

 

[John Suburbs]

My vote goes for Hallis Mollen. Somebody closed the crypt door after Bran & Co. left it open at the end of Clash, and Hallis is the only one who had any reason to go down there.