Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 What were Littlefingers intentions after murdering Jon Arryn?My interest comes from the sheer amount of luck he has had throughout the series, which can not of all been intended in his initial plot. I know he is somewhat of a genius and takes advantage of the current situation for his own intentions. As the show puts it 'Chaos is a ladder', so I can understand the intention of creating chaos in order to profit from any situation as it arises, but surely this is above and beyond what he thought to achieve.A look at his achievements in brief: Successfully murders Jon Arryn, creating suspicion over the Lannisters,Successfully Imp-lements Tyrion with his lie about the dagger (and the chance meeting and imprisonment from Cat that creates the war)Betrays Ned over the Gold Cloaks (fortunately Ned dispersed his guard and failed to recruit any lords and their retainers, especially Really's men)[Convinces Joff to kill Ned, potentially]Is delegated the task of brokering an alliance with the Tyrells, allowing him to scheme to kill Joff,Kills Joff (again implementing Tyrion, the one person who is clever enough to catch him out?),Kidnaps a willing Sansa ('the key to the north'),Is awarded Harrenhal,Weds Lysa,Takes control of the Vale,Embezzled money from the crown [and something to do with the Antler men?],I just feel he's been too successful. I can see him foreseeing Ned becoming Hand, finding the truth about Joff and potentially getting caught in a treasonous plot, but did he know King Robert was going to be murdered? If he knew about King Bob then Renly and Marg marrying and creating civil war between the Baratheons could be foreseen. But could he of known about the potential for a Lannister Tyrell alliance, before Renly was even dead? He couldn't be sure on a Northern rebellion or Sansa looking like Cat and being the last Stark and in his clutches. He couldn't of expected Harrenhal and therefore the prestige to wed Lysa or control the Vale.So from the off, what do you think he expected from all his scheming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Two definite goals were to cause a rift between Stark and Lannister, and to hold back the power of the Vale until the rest of the 7 Kingdoms exhausted themselves, I think. Everything else he takes in strideLF, like Varys, or any other adept play of the Game must be able to change plans due to circumstance. LF does it very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Two definite goals were to cause a rift between Stark and Tully, and to hold back the power of the Vale until the rest of the 7 Kingdoms exhausted themselves, I think. Everything else he takes in strideLF, like Varys, or any other adept play of the Game must be able to change plans due to circumstance. LF does it very well.What does he do to create a feud between Stark and Tully? Other than sending Ned to kings landing and leaving Cat behind in Winterfell? I understand he has adapted to the situation to take advantage, which i guess could be what he was aiming for. Killing Jon was just the first roll of the dice, but I just wander if even Littlefinger is surprised by how fortunate he's been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 What does he do to create a feud between Stark and Tully? Other than sending Ned to kings landing and leaving Cat behind in Winterfell? I understand he has adapted to the situation to take advantage, which i guess could be what he was aiming for. Killing Jon was just the first roll of the dice, but I just wander if even Littlefinger is surprised by how fortunate he's beenI'm dumb. I meant Lannister lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'm dumb. I meant Lannister lol. Understandable.But if he wanted to create a potential civil war, what did he think he could profit out of it, other than a potential rivals death? I'm assuming that he had to have an initial plan and everything hasn't been a combination of luck and initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jampot Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 LF is well connected to the faceless men! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I think he just really wanted to fuck up Catelyn's happily ever after and burn the family that she picked over him to the ground. Step 1: Kill Jon Arryn to get Ned Stark to King's Landing as Hand of the King Step 2: Get Lysa to write a letter blaming the Lannisters to stir up the already negative Stark feeling against LannistersStep 3: Put Stark on trail of Baratheon bastardsStep 4: Tell Cersei Stark is on trail of bastards making her take steps to kill RobertStep 5: Manipulate Stark into committing public treasonDie Stark, die.After that, I think Littlefinger really just rolls with what happened. The Tyrion thing was just too good to pass up, and once Ned is dead and the War of the Five Kings gets under way, I think he just uses his wits to make the best of it he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 LF is well connected to the faceless men!Or the force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 I think he just really wanted to fuck up Catelyn's happily ever after and burn the family that she picked over him to the ground. Step 1: Kill Jon Arryn to get Ned Stark to King's Landing as Hand of the King Step 2: Get Lysa to write a letter blaming the Lannisters to stir up the already negative Stark feeling against LannistersStep 3: Put Stark on trail of Baratheon bastardsStep 4: Tell Cersei Stark is on trail of bastards making her take steps to kill RobertStep 5: Manipulate Stark into committing public treasonDie Stark, die.After that, I think Littlefinger really just rolls with what happened. The Tyrion thing was just too good to pass up, and once Ned is dead and the War of the Five Kings gets under way, I think he just uses his wits to make the best of it he can. The guy is crazy jealous to do all that just to see Ned die though. Not exactly a huge pay off for taking such a risk as to kill the hand of the King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Another think that irks me is Lysa Tullys trial of Tryrion. Why did she accuse him of conspiring to murder Jon Arryn, when she was well aware that she did it herself. If she believed in the Gods or justice she should never of allowed a trial, knowing there was no evidence of his guilt. I assume she was relying on her idiot son to condemn him with his desire to see him fly. But that will only let all the Vale lords know how cruel and weak Robin is as a ruler and that there is no longer any justice in the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Another think that irks me is Lysa Tullys trial of Tryrion. Why did she accuse him of conspiring to murder Jon Arryn, when she was well aware that she did it herself. If she believed in the Gods or justice she should never of allowed a trial, knowing there was no evidence of his guilt. I assume she was relying on her idiot son to condemn him with his desire to see him fly. But that will only let all the Vale lords know how cruel and weak Robin is as a ruler and that there is no longer any justice in the Vale. To put any attention of blame (if there even was any) off of herself. And also, she's a crazy b*tch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Unpopular opinion, but I think his short term goal was relatively modest: kill Jon Arryn, blame it on the Lannisters, marry Lysa, become Lord Protector of the Vale. And that was it, at least for the moment.But then something happened: Ned told Cersei he knew about the incest, Cersei had Robert killed, and - this is the kicker- Ned was adamant that he wanted Stannis to seat the throne. That would've ruined everything for LF: bye bye Small Council, back to the crappy Fingers, good luck marrying Lysa then. So LF had to switch sides and join the Lannisters, at least to defeat the enemy they had in common in Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Unpopular opinion, but I think his short term goal was relatively modest: kill Jon Arryn, blame it on the Lannisters, marry Lysa, become Lord Protector of the Vale. And that was it, at least for the moment.But then something happened: Ned told Cersei he knew about the incest, Cersei had Robert killed, and - this is the kicker- Ned was adamant that he wanted Stannis to seat the throne. That would've ruined everything for LF: bye bye Small Council, back to the crappy Fingers, good luck marrying Lysa then. So LF had to switch sides and join the Lannisters, at least to defeat the enemy they had in common in Stannis. I believe something similar. I believe he had the plan to wed Lysa and become Lord Protector of the Vale, but that he knew he had to start some chaos in order for him to gain a lordship great enough for Lysa to marry him. He saw all the titles handed out when Robert took the throne and knew it would happen again. He couldn't have predicted Harrenhall specifically, but he could have predicted getting something. However he also had Lysa hold back the Vale troops, and then stole Sansa away and killed Joffrey, causing chaos where peace would have left him as Lord of Harrenhall & Liege lord of the Riverlands, as well as Lord Paramount of the Vale. For him to give all of that up, he has to have his sites set on something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Unpopular opinion, but I think his short term goal was relatively modest: kill Jon Arryn, blame it on the Lannisters, marry Lysa, become Lord Protector of the Vale. And that was it, at least for the moment.But then something happened: Ned told Cersei he knew about the incest, Cersei had Robert killed, and - this is the kicker- Ned was adamant that he wanted Stannis to seat the throne. That would've ruined everything for LF: bye bye Small Council, back to the crappy Fingers, good luck marrying Lysa then. So LF had to switch sides and join the Lannisters, at least to defeat the enemy they had in common in Stannis. I believe something similar. I believe he had the plan to wed Lysa and become Lord Protector of the Vale, but that he knew he had to start some chaos in order for him to gain a lordship great enough for Lysa to marry him. He saw all the titles handed out when Robert took the throne and knew it would happen again. He couldn't have predicted Harrenhall specifically, but he could have predicted getting something. However he also had Lysa hold back the Vale troops, and then stole Sansa away and killed Joffrey, causing chaos where peace would have left him as Lord of Harrenhall & Liege lord of the Riverlands, as well as Lord Paramount of the Vale. For him to give all of that up, he has to have his sites set on something else.I agree he knew he could wed Lysa, given he had a great enough title, but the chances that Robert would of rewarded a slime like him are slim, as Robert would favour strength. So if it was his intention to gain a title, he must of been complicit in the conspiracy to kill the king. Either knowing that Cersei was planning on killing him and allowing it to happen, or would of schemed to kill him himself if he hadn't of lucked out with Cersei doing the work for him. I know circumstances change as the books go on. I'm trust trying to feel out his intentions on day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Unpopular opinion, but I think his short term goal was relatively modest: kill Jon Arryn, blame it on the Lannisters, marry Lysa, become Lord Protector of the Vale. And that was it, at least for the moment.But then something happened: Ned told Cersei he knew about the incest, Cersei had Robert killed, and - this is the kicker- Ned was adamant that he wanted Stannis to seat the throne. That would've ruined everything for LF: bye bye Small Council, back to the crappy Fingers, good luck marrying Lysa then. So LF had to switch sides and join the Lannisters, at least to defeat the enemy they had in common in Stannis. Pretty much what I'm thinking.It also could simply be an example of GRRM's story growing. What you said in the first paragraph very well may have been GRRM's original thoughts/plotline for LF when it was a trilogy. But since the story expanded, so did LF's role in everything. So the excuse that LF "switched tactics" based on what happened (as you indicated in the 2nd paragraph) is a convenient way/excuse for LF's story to expand without it being too obvious to the reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Maybe he wanted to kill jon, get Ned to KL, get rid of Ned in KL, then he can somehow marry a widowed cat just like he married lysa laterBut Tywin was too powerful so red wedding happened. Then his plan was changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jampot Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Or the force?Yeah he's probably connected to the force too! he's a sneaky one though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I agree he knew he could wed Lysa, given he had a great enough title, but the chances that Robert would of rewarded a slime like him are slim, as Robert would favour strength. So if it was his intention to gain a title, he must of been complicit in the conspiracy to kill the king. Either knowing that Cersei was planning on killing him and allowing it to happen, or would of schemed to kill him himself if he hadn't of lucked out with Cersei doing the work for him. I know circumstances change as the books go on. I'm trust trying to feel out his intentions on day one. Robert made LF Master of coin, forgave Balon Greyjoy, turned a blind eye to Cersei, Joffrey, and made Slynt, commander of the city watch and ignored his corruption. He was not above rewarding slime at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Pink Eye Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Robert made LF Master of coin, forgave Balon Greyjoy, turned a blind eye to Cersei, Joffrey, and made Slynt, commander of the city watch and ignored his corruption. He was not above rewarding slime at all. Jon Arryn named Littlefinger Master of Coin. Balon was a fool, but brave. He also didn't go unpunished with the loss of his sonsBeing a lousy husband or father isn't the same.I can't see Robert naming Slynt, more likely the appointment was made by his councillors and he allowed it to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Jon Arryn named Littlefinger Master of Coin. Balon was a fool, but brave. He also didn't go unpunished with the loss of his sonsBeing a lousy husband or father isn't the same.I can't see Robert naming Slynt, more likely the appointment was made by his councillors and he allowed it to happen Jon Aryn made the recommendation, the position was Roberts to fill, tho it is probably as you said for Slynt. The point is Robert went along with all of it and is famously generous. He had Lysa keep back her forces in TWO5k, if Robert was still alive during a civil war he could have done the same then told Robert he could get her forces on his side, or vice versa. I see no reason to believe that Robert remaining King would prevent LF from climbing higher, it just makes chaos less likely. Varys knew Cersei was going after Robert so LF probably did too, but whether successful or not LF was going to cause his civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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