Sam is Never Getting Back to the Wall...in Person

[dembones10]

I have read theories that Sam will be killed by Faceless Pate, so if that's your stance - I suppose this discussion won't be that interesting.  

However, if you're like me and don't think that is Sam's fate, what is?

Sam was sent to the Citadel to forge a maester's chain so he can return to the Watch.  I have been searching for estimates on how long that normally takes (and would love for people to post below if they have more info), but all I have found scouring the books is in aFfC Prologue when Pate thinks:

"Alleras would make a maester.  He had only been at the Citadel for a year, yet he had already forged three links of his maester's chain."

It continues: 

"Pate, though...He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands."

So we see what seems to be the picture of two extremes on the pace of learning to become a maester.  Even if we assume that Sam is brilliant and may set chain-forging speed records, he would have six links in a year if he doubled Alleras' pace.  Sources state that one becomes a maester once the chain is long enough to wear around their neck.  The only evidence I've found (weak stuff) is pictures from the show and artwork of maesters and their various chains.  Realistically, it seems like one would need at least 10 links for a small, wearable chain.  I think you can see where I'm going with this.  

Our story may be long-concluded before Sam becomes a maester.  So do we reasonably expect him to make it back to the wall as Maester Sam?  Probably not. 

I can see Sam's POV linking into Arya's storyline through Faceless Pate, or the Dorne storyline through Sarella, or most importantly bringing the Hightowers into the fold, but I'm not convinced that's the whole reason his story moved to Oldtown.

I propose that Sam's main usefulness to Jon and the Watch through the glass candle.  Faceless Pate's has the master key and Sam has already proven to be remarkably special.  He would be able to advise Jon through dreams and to see what futures await (the newly resurrected) Lord Snow and the Watch.  He could see the Other's movements to help Jon prepare.  The glass candles have to come into play, and I really believe that this is how.

Thoughts?

[Ice Turtle]

Originally there was supposed to be 5 years gap between ASoS and TWoW. Though even 5 years maybe would not have been enough to make Sam a maester.

Sam is our only POV in Oldtown and a lot of things is happening there. What I expect is to things go bad, be it Ironborn, greyscale or dragons. I have a feeling there Sam will be forced to flee the city sooner or later and it might be he will go with Sarella to Dorne and maybe he learns something about Jon there.

[sarah.jenice]

Originally there was supposed to be 5 years gap between ASoS and TWoW. Though even 5 years maybe would not have been enough to make Sam a maester.

Sam is our only POV in Oldtown and a lot of things is happening there. What I expect is to things go bad, be it Ironborn, greyscale or dragons. I have a feeling there Sam will be forced to flee the city sooner or later and it might be he will go with Sarella to Dorne and maybe he learns something about Jon there.

Sam is definitely one of the characters that needed the five year gap. He needs to learn more about magic, fighting the Others, dragons and whatever the maesters and the Faceless men are really up to. I think Sam will find a lot of vital information while at the Citadel, but he doesn't necessarily have to make it all of the way back to the Wall to play a big role in helping fight the Others. 

I don't see Sam going back to the Wall if Jon is no longer the Lord Commander. He's going to want to serve Jon wherever he is, and I think they will meet back up during the wars to come. 

[Varyslostloveball]

Sam has a greater sense of urgency than other novices. Most of them are rejects, outcasts and the odd gender bender, while Sam is literally on a mission to save the world, plus his confidence in his own mental capabilities must surely have inflated some at the wall, so he should be able to dive right in and excel right from the start

[CJ McLannister]

He may return, but not as a Maester.  At least not within the time-frame of the books.  Sam visiting Jon in dreams would be awkward.  Whatever goes down in Oldtown might drastically change the position of the Citadel anyway.

[Curled Finger]

Welcome dembones, heck of a 1st thread.  In that I believe Sam is a true good guy and reluctant hero I love your alternate fate for him.  Your time references to the maester's chain links are reasonable but let's not discount Sam's above average intelligence.  Let's be honest there aren't many really smart really good people in ASOIAF.

With Marwan off to see the wizard er Dragon Queen, Sam and Sartella may be the only hope the Citadel has for preservation.  And I'm not sold on Pate being on a murder assignment...if the FM are behind the doom they need to amass all the fire magic knowledge possible presumably to either pull off another doom or threaten to do so.  I believe the Masters hold and have hidden much secret or lost magic knowledge.  Who better to locate that knowledge than Sam?  

I'm at work right now but had to check in.  It's nice to see a piece that doesn't hate Sam and values him within the tale.  Be back tonight to discuss those glass candles.  Excellent thread dembones.  Thanks!

[aryagonnakill#2]

I expect Sam to surpass Alleras, as he should be able to earn several links immediately.  Ravenry for example, as he has been tending to Maester Aemons for a while.  Math and perhaps warfare should be easy for him as well.  He might not like fighting but he would have the academic knowledge. 

 

However the idea of Sam using a glass candle with Alleras is very interesting.  Marwyn will likely take 1 of the candles, that leaves 2.  Alleras has been apprenticing with Marwyn and has likely picked up a few things and I suspect will try to continue watching events unfold.  I could definitely see Sam trying to contact Jon via glass candle, otherwise why does the Citadel have more than 1?

[Dorian Martell]

I can see sam excelling at being a Maester novice and moving up the ranks quickly, especially with the help of Alleras. He may not have his full chain but I could see him discovering his confidence working very hard 

[SevasTra82]

I don't think there will be a Nights Watch for Sam to return to in all honesty.  I don't know what the fallout of Jon's stabbing will be, but I guarantee the Nights Watch is going to be shaken up somehow.

I think Sam is going to be the "info dump" character...we're going to learn a lot about The Others, The Citadel, Glass Candles, Faceless Men, etc etc through him.

[Bironic]

Yeah he was one of the characters who needed the 5 years gap. But I think he will be faster than Alleras. First, he needs and wants to become a Maester, for Alleras it's more a game. I doubt that she actually wants to become a Maester, nor is there any need for her to do it.
Second, Sam has already knowledge from Maester Aemon and from his love of books he has trained himself since childhood to become a Maester.

There is also the possibility that by the time Sam thinks he can return to the Wall, that there is no NW anymore and maybe no Wall.

I think he will be Maester by the end of the books.

[WolfgangII]

My personal ASOIAF epilogue with Sam's fate on it:

A young novice venture into de forbidden section of the Citadel library. There, he found a book, not too old, but clearly mistreated with some pages burn or tore apart. He has been doubting of his masters and teachers. He is certain there is a lot of things Grand Master Joffrey is not telling. He have read the sanctioned books about the old Realm, who extended from the southern coast of Dorne all the way up to North, about the curse city of King's Landing and its famed Iron Throne. He has read about the Mad Targaryen kings, who burned all the Realm with wildfire and considered themselves dragons. It was logical that they didn't last long. He has read about civil warfares, brothers against brothers, sometimes they were dragons, sometimes they were stags; about all the Blackfyre pretenders, from Daemon to Aegon. This and more he has learned in his three years on the Citadel, but lately, he has some doubts. Everything started when he found an old book from Master Marwyn. In it, he learned about lost books and misterious lands, he learned about Ashaii-by-the-Shadow, Old Valyria and how the mighty Iron Bank of Bravos had ended, once and for all, the tyranny of the slavers and their Silver Queen, last of her kind. He knew Essos has a lot of secrets beyond the Maester's grip, but what he heard last night was more frightening and close to home. "Sailor's tales", he thought at first. But when they talked about a dead things, cold and vengefull, of people who rised from the death to kill, then he remembered the bedtime story his old nan use to tell him about Lady Stoneheart, the shadow of the forest. He never thought such tales, rooted deep at the Green Fork, could reach Bravoosi ears. But they did, somehow. Or maybe there was some truth on that. Everyone has hear about the myths of old age. About the giants and direwolves, dragons and ice spiders, weird children running in the forest and people who could change their skin, crows a top of wall and bloodmagic. Everyone thinks those are just stories to scare children, like the Imp or the Young Wolf. But, what if there are no tales? What if there is some truth behind? What if the great battle of the dawn, did actually happen, so many years ago. For the seven hells, what if the maesters know about these? That's why he is searching in the forbidden section, to learn about what the maester hide. That's why he took the book of the shelve, blew the dust of the cover and read its title: A Song of Ice and Fire, by Maester Samwell.

[khal drogon]

Sam is definitely going to meet Team Daenerys at some point. I think he will go back to the wall with her.

[CJ McLannister]

Sam is definitely going to meet Team Daenerys at some point. I think he will go back to the wall with her.

Hopefully as her lover.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Hopefully as her lover.

/thread 

[Luddagain]

Sam is one of the early characters introduced. he has a big role.

he has the Horn,and he is stepfather to Mance/s son.

Sam has spent 3 years with one of the greatest maesters of all, so in a sense has already served 2 years as a novice. from childhood he was interested in books and music. Sam can almost immediately on arrival forge the following links:

Ravens - at least the first level  - possibly the second

History - he has been studying since childhood and spent months at the wall reading old texts - probably two levels or even more

Healing- He learned a lot from Maester Aemon - perhaps not quite enough for a link, but still a lot. He showd Ser Jeor he had a natural aptitude for it. However he knows it is an essential skill at the wall so will put the effort in.

Music - he had loved it as a child - close to a link

War strategy - unlike most novices Sam arrives with this already. He has been taught by the very best in the land. First his father - even though he was later ignored, Sam must have lerned a great deal from Randyll, the best war commander in Westeros. He worked beside/with Jon who brought the learning of Ned Stark, perhaps the second greatest war strategist in the land and he watched Stannis probably the third.

Maths - he knew a lot and worked with Aemon, so probably a link

Magic - this is his special inerest. He will become one of a handful who forge this link.

So I can see Sam forging 9 links within his first 6 months.  He is older than most novices, so he already had some learning and also has a natural aptitude.

[Pancakes1800]

Given that AFFC both starts and ends in Oldtown/The Citadel I think Sam's story is incredibly important.  I agree with others that Sam needed a 5 year gap, but unfortunately it wouldn't have worked for other characters.  I wonder what Sam is going to do when he hears about Jon.  I reckon that the story of Jon dying and coming back to life will eventually be like the game telephone where the story twists and changes by the time Sam hears it.  Of course it depends on how long Jon is out and stuff.  I think Sam could learn a lot by studying and reading books, maybe learn a lot about magic.  Maybe we see Highgarden through his eyes.  Sam's story/Oldtown along with the North are the 2 storylines I am most excited about in TWOW. 

[BalerionTheCat]

I don't think Sam will have time to become a master now. Possibly later. His purpose is, I think, to learn things about the Others and the previous Long Night. Probably to convince the south of the seriousness of the situation. Maybe something to do with the Daynes. To become quickly a maester would be, IMO, unrealistic. Unless the things take time, but that seems unrealistic too.

[Light a wight tonight]

But will there be a Wall for Sam to get back to, or will it have been destroyed?

[Rippounet]

Lots of good ideas.

I agree that Sam will prove a genius apprentice. He'll likely impress pretty much anyone he meets in the Citadel  -even though the archmaesters are likely to hinder his progress and prevent him from actually becoming a maester.

I'd say he'll discover that he doesn't need to become a maester to be useful. He'll get whatever information and skills helpful to him (including archery mayhaps) before trying to return north. If he's too late (if the Watch has already been wiped out), he may be the one to rebuild it at the end of the series (if it's not Jon).

But most importantly, I think he will find information about the Maesters' conspiracy. The glass candle may prove useful, but what will matter to us (the readers) will be discovering that the maesters have been trying to extinguish the Targaryens by manipulating politics. My pet theory is that Robert's Rebellion was a creation of shadow players acting indepedently toward the same goal (Varys, the maesters, the Faith), and that Sam will somehow discover this (through secret books, and/or by discovering the traces of the maesters' experiments on dragon-killing). He could also learn more about prophecy, about the Others, or about dragons.
If he uncovers a conspiracy, he may find himself a key player to warn other characters of the danger (Jon and Dany). He may even find himself working with (or against) the FM.

If he doesn't become LC, he may be instrumental in bringing about the fall of the current conclave and become archmaester (for magic) or even Grand Maester. But I think he's more likely to become LC, because Jon won't be able to.
He's very likely to have his own chain at the end of the series either way.

[Curled Finger]

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"  

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

Sam 5 AFFC

Correct me if inaccurate, but wasn't Marwyn watching Dany with the Glass Candle?    Didn't he seem not to know about the Others awakening or whatever it is they are doing?   Now Marwyn is the legendary rogue Maester or at least that's how he appeared to me.   Why go to Dany after he gets this dynamite from Sam?   Is he trying to help or what?    Marwyn tells Sam how the candles work in the 1st paragraph--Sam CAN enter Jon's dreams (if Jon has a consciousness).   Now we need Jon to get his own candle so they can talk.   I digress, I see no reason this candle Sam's told to watch can't get Sam all the information he needs about Jon, the Wall and the Others.    Further, considering Quaithe's influence over Dany via these candles isn't it conceivable for Sam to have some effect on Jon's consciousness?   See I like the idea of Jon coming around some way other than Mel.