On Tywin's death

[Ygrain]

It has been long speculated that Tywin was poisoned by widow's wail, hence why Tyrion found him in the privy and why the body smelled so foul even despite Pycelle's efforts. It has been speculated that Oberyn was the culprit and that Varys knew, which is why he mentioned the entrance to Tywin's chambers to Tyrion. I wondered, though: what if Varys was the poisoner, for the same reason he killed Kevan? With Tywin in charge, fAegon wouldn't stand a chance, so removing Tywin was crucial. Oberyn would then be the obvious fall guy - he says it himself that he would be the number one suspect in Joff's poisoning, if not for Tyrion's accusation. Having Oberyn accused and imprisoned or even executed would safely achieve what his death in the duel did, making Dorne fAegon's ally against the Lannisters. With Oberyn's unexpected demise, Tyrion's hatred served as a cover-up for the now redundant poisoning, which might have sent some people thinking - if Tywin died of poison long after Tyrion was imprisoned, who could have done it? Whereas, if Tywin dies by Tyrion's hand, no-one starts suspecting poison - perhaps except Pycelle, whose smashed head might well be resting on a book of poisons and their effects on the body after the death.

So, what do you think? Has this been done before?

[Mladen]

I really, really, really want that Tyrion is Tywin's son and that he is the only culprit here. It makes story far more compelling.

As for this, IDK... It is possible. But, again, I go back to Tyrion and all his chapters that would be tragically obsolete if he wasn't the guilty one for the death of his father.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I like I like the idea that Tyrion didn't have to kill Tywin, but did anyway...

 

not it that he could have known but still good irony, and a reason for Tyrion to turn on Varys later... 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I really, really, really want that Tyrion is Tywin's son and that he is the only culprit here. It makes story far more compelling.

As for this, IDK... It is possible. But, again, I go back to Tyrion and all his chapters that would be tragically obsolete if he wasn't the guilty one for the death of his father.

It may be more compelling to you, but for me Tyrion killing Jaime's father after Jaime killed Tyrion's father (both evil men) makes the story much better.

Plus, I have always found the reason GRRM's writing is so fascinating is that his stories are in 3D. The characters "off screen" have plans and schemes are acting them out unbeknownst to the reader as well as the POVs.

I firmly believe that Tywin was poison, and at first I leaned towards Oberyn. For two reasons, one the obvious reason is because you are told that he has experience with poisons and he wants Tywin dead.

But two, it could have been an insurance policy if Oberyn died facing the Mountain then Tywin would still get his due justice.

 

But the more I think about it the more Varys makes sense. Varys wants Tywin dead (weaker Throne/ Lannisters helps fAegon) and he is not object to kill people in his way. Plus he has two scapegoats to blame the death on, Oberyn and Tyrion (just found guilty of poisoning Joffery).

Varys taking Tyrion past the Tower right as Shae was there was no accident, he was hoping Tyrion would do exactly what he did, but probably planned a back up in case Tyrion didn't take the bait.

 

 

[Mladen]

It may be more compelling to you, but for me Tyrion killing Jaime's father after Jaime killed Tyrion's father (both evil men) makes the story much better.

It would be good Mexican soap opera, that is for sure.

Honestly, between all the theories who is whose parents, I start to believe that people have rather hilarious view on GRRM's prose.

I like I like the idea that Tyrion didn't have to kill Tywin, but did anyway...

Even this would make a good thing, but I honestly don't want Tyrion to be exonerated by some divine intervention. It is rather cheap. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

I have argued that Varys was the poisoner for a long time now.  I think the fact that Pycelle mentions that particular poison at Tyrions trial, and the reasons you listed suggested Tywin was poisoned.  I also think Tywin was way too smart to let Oberyn poison him, he would be on his guard 100%.  However as of Kevins epilogue we see that Varys has control of many of the castles cup bearers and as we already knew can sneak into any room he wants. 

[Lord Wraith]

"I have heard it said that poison is a woman's weapon."

Pycelle stroked his beard thoughtfully. "It is said. Women, cravens … and eunuchs." He cleared his throat and spat a thick glob of phlegm onto the rushes. Above them, a raven cawed loudly in the rookery. "The Lord Varys was born a slave in Lys, did you know? Put not your trust in spiders, my lord."

Could be foreshadowing of Varys poisoning someone. I certainly believe Tywin by poisoned. It makes sense for Oberyn. It makes sense for Varys to pin on Oberyn. Or they could have worked together. Who knows?

[mediterraneo]

I'm in on this, "Varys did it".

I add that after poisoning Tywin with Widow's Wail he also brough Shae there, drugged her, charged the crossbow and moved the box under it so Tyrion could catch it easily.

That permits me to think that the "Hand too careful about his honor to go to Chataya's openly" was Jon Arryn, and that Tywin was indeed sexually impotent, and not the father of his children - that's why he married a cousin, which was the King's lover, to have Lannister blooded children named after him, and the King's favor. He may have been even fond of her.

The thing about Tywin's impotence comes from the aggressively sexual way in which he punishes women. Tywin's father's paramour and Tysha: Tywin was the only man in that barrack NOT to rape her.
If this was true, it could be possible that both the twins and Tyrion are secret Targaryens, which would make Jeoffrey the nearest thing to a rightful king in Westeros, which would be fun.

Or maybe Varys didn't and all of this falls as a crackpotty castle of cards.

[Richard Writhen]

But Tyrion did have to kill him. He'd been bottling rage towards his father since the Isha incident or whatever ... and he and Jaime both committed fratricide.

 

 

As for the poisoning, that's crackpot. Varys certainly poisons people at some point, but not in this case ...

[Ygrain]

I really, really, really want that Tyrion is Tywin's son and that he is the only culprit here. It makes story far more compelling.

As for this, IDK... It is possible. But, again, I go back to Tyrion and all his chapters that would be tragically obsolete if he wasn't the guilty one for the death of his father.

Not necessarily, if Tyrion never finds out. And even if he does... would it change a lifetime of bitterness towards his "father"? Remember Jon's "Lord Eddard will always be my father"? 

Furthermore, there would be very interesting parallels in Tyrion-Tywin and Jon-Ned relationship - or rather, parallels and stark contrasts (pun intended). Both men had to raise a child whose birth killed the woman they loved as their own, but one did with love and the other with hatred, and both created someone who is their father's son, as Genna aptly pointed out about Tyrion.

[Lord Wraith]

To the OP: the poison is Widow's Blood. Widow's Wail is what Joffrey names his sword.  I had to go double check the wiki.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I think it's pretty obvious that Tywin was poisoned before he was killed by Tyrion. Starting with the abnormally strong stench when he lost his bowels dying on the privy, to the absurdly noxious smells his corpse gives off during his funerary rites, to the way his face dried into an odd, unfamiliar, but oh so poetically just, smile. The last part, in my opinion, was absolutely done on purpose by his poisoner. 

 

As for who did it, I, at first, thought Oberyn, but after finishing the Epilogue of Dance, I now lean more towards Varys. 

[Knight Of Winter]

I was always inclined to various Tywin was posioned theories, for there were well elaborated amd made sense. I'm leaning towards Oberyn as the culprit, but Varys is indeed another likely suspect.

Furthermore, there would be very interesting parallels in Tyrion-Tywin and Jon-Ned relationship - or rather, parallels and stark contrasts (pun intended). Both men had to raise a child whose birth killed the woman they loved as their own, but one did with love and the other with hatred, and both created someone who is their father's son, as Genna aptly pointed out about Tyrion.

And the huge list of how Ned and Tywin are basically each other's foils just grew one entry longer. Well noted.

[Ygrain]

To the OP: the poison is Widow's Blood. Widow's Wail is what Joffrey names his sword.  I had to go double check the wiki.

Lol, thanks for the correction. I completely forgot about Joff's fearsome sword.

And the huge list of how Ned and Tywin are basically each other's foils just grew one entry longer. Well noted.

The credit goes to the radiowesteros and their analysis of Tywin here :-)

[Lion of the West]

I really, really, really want that Tyrion is Tywin's son and that he is the only culprit here. It makes story far more compelling.

As for this, IDK... It is possible. But, again, I go back to Tyrion and all his chapters that would be tragically obsolete if he wasn't the guilty one for the death of his father.

Count me in, because I feel pretty much the same.

[Protagoras]

I really, really, really want that Tyrion is Tywin's son and that he is the only culprit here. It makes story far more compelling.

As for this, IDK... It is possible. But, again, I go back to Tyrion and all his chapters that would be tragically obsolete if he wasn't the guilty one for the death of his father.

Count me in as well.

One of the cornerstones of Tyrions arc is his relation to his father whose shadow both impresses and scares Tyrion. Despite all his words Tyrion is having many similarities to his father as well, embracing him more and more through the books. The resemblance in some areas like vengeance are identical (Genna was clearly on the money about who was Tywins son). Will he become Tywin himself in the end or resist?

And slaying his own father - did he turn in to him then? Is the father reborn in the son? Ohhhh, the drama.

It would be very unsatisfying if Tyrion were not his son in the first place or if Tywin was already dying.

[kimim]

Tyrion-Tywin conflict builds up for three books, and explodes at the end of Storm.A Tywin who was already a dead man when Tyrion walked into the privy wrecks that. Tyrion as Aerys's son wrecks it, too. What do people have against this story, anyway? It's one of the best things about the novels.

On top of that, there's no evidence.

Varys as poisoner: If Tywin is already poisoned, why did Varys send Tyrion to Tywin's room? Tyrion is wanted for killing the king, so it's not like this is the only way Varys can get him to leave the country. I could maybe buy it, if Varys wanted to stay on at King's Landing as the spymaster, and needed Tyrion as a cover. Varys is planning on leaving, too, so what would be the point?

 

 

[Knight Of Winter]

Question for several of you here: why do you believe that Tywin being poisoned would diminish an impact/importance of Tyrion killing Tywin? If Tywin was indeed posioned, Tyrion didn't know it, and still made an independent and conscious effort to kill Tywin (and succeeded). Murder's plot importance, as well as its importance for Tyrion's and Tywin's characters - remain exactly the same.

[kimim]

Question for several of you here: why do you believe that Tywin being poisoned would diminish an impact/importance of Tyrion killing Tywin? If Tywin was indeed posioned, Tyrion didn't know it, and still made an independent and conscious effort to kill Tywin (and succeeded). Murder's plot importance, as well as its importance for Tyrion's and Tywin's characters - remain exactly the same.

"I killed my father" is different from "I thought that I killed my father, but it turns out Varys got there before me, and poisoned him."

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

"I killed my father" is different from "I thought that I killed my father, but it turns out Varys got there before me, and poisoned him."

Not really. He had know way of knowing, then or now. He killed his dad after a life full of abuse and a final rage over Tywin's hypocrisy and betrayal. In truth, he unknowingly did his dad a kindness by putting him out of his misery.