On Tywin's death

[Lord Wraith]

Lol, thanks for the correction. I completely forgot about Joff's fearsome sword.

The credit goes to the radiowesteros and their analysis of Tywin here :-)

No problem. Heh fearsome sword 

Tyrion-Tywin conflict builds up for three books, and explodes at the end of Storm.A Tywin who was already a dead man when Tyrion walked into the privy wrecks that. Tyrion as Aerys's son wrecks it, too. What do people have against this story, anyway? It's one of the best things about the novels.

On top of that, there's no evidence.

Varys as poisoner: If Tywin is already poisoned, why did Varys send Tyrion to Tywin's room? Tyrion is wanted for killing the king, so it's not like this is the only way Varys can get him to leave the country. I could maybe buy it, if Varys wanted to stay on at King's Landing as the spymaster, and needed Tyrion as a cover. Varys is planning on leaving, too, so what would be the point?

 

 

Covering it up? Varys had to start removing the smart Lannister leadership. Poisoning Tywin was supposed to cause discord the Lannister siblings and the Tyells. Then when the opportunity the have Tyrion kill Tywin presented itself I am sure Varys was capable of setting things up for the Tyrion/Tywin privy scene.

Now instead of Cersei blaming Varys or someone else with Tywin's poisoning she blames Tyrion for his death and spends too much time in energy trying to hunt him down than ruling the realm.

[kimim]

Not really. He had know way of knowing, then or now. He killed his dad after a life full of abuse and a final rage over Tywin's hypocrisy and betrayal. In truth, he unknowingly did his dad a kindness by putting him out of his misery.

Yes, indeed, you can see his killing a man slowly dying of poison to be a kind of accidental mercy killing. Again, "I killed my father," is very different from this.

No problem. Heh fearsome sword 

Covering it up? Varys had to start removing the smart Lannister leadership. Poisoning Tywin was supposed to cause discord the Lannister siblings and the Tyells. Then when the opportunity the have Tyrion kill Tywin presented itself I am sure Varys was capable of setting things up for the Tyrion/Tywin privy scene.

Now instead of Cersei blaming Varys or someone else with Tywin's poisoning she blames Tyrion for his death and spends too much time in energy trying to hunt him down than ruling the realm.

If Varys has already poisoned Tywin, and if he and Tyrion are already leaving the country, why on earth would he send Tyrion off to kill Tywin??? Cersei is paranoid. She's already convinced that Tyrion killed her son; that's enough to keep her searching for him, without Varys adding Tywin to it.

[Lord Wraith]

Yes, indeed, you can see his killing a man slowly dying of poison to be a kind of accidental mercy killing. Again, "I killed my father," is very different from this.

If Varys has already poisoned Tywin, and if he and Tyrion are already leaving the country, why on earth would he send Tyrion off to kill Tywin??? Cersei is paranoid. She's already convinced that Tyrion killed her son; that's enough to keep her searching for him, without Varys adding Tywin to it.

Well I was talking hypothetically. Also think of the wedge it drives between Jaime and Tyrion.

I still think it was Oberyn.

[Mladen]

Question for several of you here: why do you believe that Tywin being poisoned would diminish an impact/importance of Tyrion killing Tywin? If Tywin was indeed posioned, Tyrion didn't know it, and still made an independent and conscious effort to kill Tywin (and succeeded). Murder's plot importance, as well as its importance for Tyrion's and Tywin's characters - remain exactly the same.

The first thing that murder plot could bring so little to the story now that Tywin is dead. Unless of course there is an element to that story that would play in the future. Second is that generally, I don't like Martin giving his characters a guilty-free card when they do something bad.If we would argue that "Tywin was already a dead man" than it sets an argumentation for exoneration for a deed Tyrion committed. From killing a man it would be killing already and possibly dead man. 

[Lord of Westeros]

I really, really, really want that Tyrion is Tywin's son and that he is the only culprit here. It makes story far more compelling.

As for this, IDK... It is possible. But, again, I go back to Tyrion and all his chapters that would be tragically obsolete if he wasn't the guilty one for the death of his father.

I am tired of Targ fanboys wanting all their favourite characters being secret Targs and wanting them to marry. I don't really mind the Oberyn theory but I just can't stand the Tyrion Targaryen theory. Tyrion is a Lannister through and through.

[RedShirt47]

I agree with the Tywin being poisoned idea.

For me the hints point more to Oberyn.
Jaime comments on the meal Tywin, Mace and Oberyn have. The only narrative purpose of this is to point out the fact that Oberyn had an opportunity to do the poisoning.
Oberyn was prepared to fight the Mountain, he had his special thickened poison ready. He had his weapons etc. I think he wanted to be on trial for the death of Tywin which he hoped would be a trial by combat with the Mountain.
Doran makes a comment about Oberyn doing to "take down those bigger than him in King's Landing"(paraphrasing).

But Varys doesn't make sense to me. Aegon is not invading at that moment, unlike when Kevan was killed. The kingdom is already quite disorganised by Cersei at that stage so it's the perfect time to remove Kevan who is beginning to sort it out. When Tywin dies the kingdom is in a much more stable situation.
Varys could have used any method to kill Tywin, he had access to his secret tunnel. He could have whisked Tywin away never to be seen again if he wished. Or stuck Tyrion's dagger in his chest while he slept. Why poison him?

Why keep it so secret if it's Varys? It would make more narrative sense to have more clues pointing to Varys if he did it. A comment while he killed Kevan saying, "I poisoned your brother, now I'm killing you."
With Oberyn it's more like an easter egg that if you find it it's amusing but doesn't change the story very much.

The only reason the Varys poisoning Tywin theory exists is due to the Oberyn poisoning Tywin theory. Nobody would ever said "What if Varys poisoned Tywin?" if it wasn't for the Oberyn theory which was led to by many clues which do not apply to Varys.

[Knight Of Winter]

The first thing that murder plot could bring so little to the story now that Tywin is dead. Unless of course there is an element to that story that would play in the future. Second is that generally, I don't like Martin giving his characters a guilty-free card when they do something bad.If we would argue that "Tywin was already a dead man" than it sets an argumentation for exoneration for a deed Tyrion committed. From killing a man it would be killing already and possibly dead man. 

First point I understand can can agree with to some point. But I don't think at all that the fact that Tywin was poisoned exonerates Tyrion in any way. If anything, there are two "unmixable" perspectives here: reader's one and Tyrion's one. Reader knows that Tywin could have been already poisoned by the time of his death. Tyrion, OTOH, doesn't know and doesn't care. He is furious at his lifetime of various humiliations and many other stuff at looks at the man who is the prime cause of it. He gets mocked one time too many, snaps and pulls the trigger. If you want to look at Tyrion's exoneration (or lack of it; it doesn't matter), look at these facts, look at Tywin's and Tyrion's relationship, look at Tyrion's story arc, look at many other relevant stuff. But don't look at poison that at no point during the murder scene comes into play.

If you heard of a terrorist who randomly selected a building and blew it to pieces causing 100 deaths, would you exonerate him after learning that the building he randomly selected was hospital for terminally ill people who had few months lo live at most? Or would you think: fuck this guy, he's the monster of a worst sort who wanted to kill as many people as he could.

"I killed my father" is different from "I thought that I killed my father, but it turns out Varys got there before me, and poisoned him."

Same as above, the bolded is a reader's perspective and is irrelevant to Tyrion. He killed his father consciously and of his own free will without knowing or caring about poison. Posion doesn't either give or take away to Tyrion's murder.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Count me in as well.

One of the cornerstones of Tyrions arc is his relation to his father whose shadow both impresses and scares Tyrion. Despite all his words Tyrion is having many similarities to his father as well, embracing him more and more through the books. The resemblance in some areas like vengeance are identical (Genna was clearly on the money about who was Tywins son). Will he become Tywin himself in the end or resist?

And slaying his own father - did he turn in to him then? Is the father reborn in the son? Ohhhh, the drama.

It would be very unsatisfying if Tyrion were not his son in the first place or if Tywin was already dying.

Tywin would still be his adoptive father just like Ned is Jon's adoptive father.

Of course he picks up Tywin's traits, he raised him.

As far as Tywin already dying before Tyrion shot him, it makes no difference. 1: We are all already dying, it just a matter of when. 2: He still loosed an arrow into Tywin's gut, that does not change no matter how much time Tywin had left.

And about Tywin not being Tyrion's father, Tyrion still killed his adoptive father and the father of his brother Jaime (who killed Tyrion's father)

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

The first thing that murder plot could bring so little to the story now that Tywin is dead. Unless of course there is an element to that story that would play in the future. Second is that generally, I don't like Martin giving his characters a guilty-free card when they do something bad.If we would argue that "Tywin was already a dead man" than it sets an argumentation for exoneration for a deed Tyrion committed. From killing a man it would be killing already and possibly dead man. 

It is the the opposite, it makes the story real.

People who are not in the reader "View" are still living their lives, make their plots and carrying out their schemes. It makes it so that the characters actions are not just "set ups" for the story but actions that may or may not change the story because other wheels were turning at the same time.

 

And Tyrion killing Tywin even if he was poisoned does not guilty free, he still shot his adoptive father in the stomach and chocked his former lover to death. How long Tywin had to live changes none of that.

[aryagonnakill#2]

 

The only reason the Varys poisoning Tywin theory exists is due to the Oberyn poisoning Tywin theory. Nobody would ever said "What if Varys poisoned Tywin?" if it wasn't for the Oberyn theory which was led to by many clues which do not apply to Varys.

What clues?  There are none.  Whether it was Oberyns intention or not is irrelevant, that Oberyn once at a meal with Tywin does not make it more likely he could poison Tywin than a man who has access to every room and seemingly most of the cup bearers. 

The clues point to Tywin being poisoned, and the Oberyn theory did come about first, but that does not make it the best theory.  Haven't you ever talked something out with someone, when you bounce ideas off each other you ultimately come up with the best idea.  The Oberyn idea opened the door, but Varys is so much more likely.

[Ygrain]

The only reason the Varys poisoning Tywin theory exists is due to the Oberyn poisoning Tywin theory. Nobody would ever said "What if Varys poisoned Tywin?" if it wasn't for the Oberyn theory which was led to by many clues which do not apply to Varys.

The thing is, I don't see clues pointing specifically to Oberyn. I've come to accept the hints at poisoning (though am not 100% convinced), and Oberyn had both the means as well as the motive, but that still doesn't make him guilty.

As for Varys' motivation, if fAegon's invasion was ever to succeed, Tywin had to be removed from the picture and the realm left to Cersei's inept rule long enough to plunge into chaos, so there needed to be a delay between Tywin's death and the invasion.

First point I understand can can agree with to some point. But I don't think at all that the fact that Tywin was poisoned exonerates Tyrion in any way. If anything, there are two "unmixable" perspectives here: reader's one and Tyrion's one. Reader knows that Tywin could have been already poisoned by the time of his death. Tyrion, OTOH, doesn't know and doesn't care. He is furious at his lifetime of various humiliations and many other stuff at looks at the man who is the prime cause of it. He gets mocked one time too many, snaps and pulls the trigger. If you want to look at Tyrion's exoneration (or lack of it; it doesn't matter), look at these facts, look at Tywin's and Tyrion's relationship, look at Tyrion's story arc, look at many other relevant stuff. But don't look at poison that at no point during the murder scene comes into play.

If you heard of a terrorist who randomly selected a building and blew it to pieces causing 100 deaths, would you exonerate him after learning that the building he randomly selected was hospital for terminally ill people who had few months lo live at most? Or would you think: fuck this guy, he's the monster of a worst sort who wanted to kill as many people as he could.

Same as above, the bolded is a reader's perspective and is irrelevant to Tyrion. He killed his father consciously and of his own free will without knowing or caring about poison. Posion doesn't either give or take away to Tyrion's murder.

Tywin being poisoned doesn't exonerate Tyrion of anything. Murdering a dying man is a murder nonetheless.

[kimim]

...

As for Varys' motivation, if fAegon's invasion was ever to succeed, Tywin had to be removed from the picture and the realm left to Cersei's inept rule long enough to plunge into chaos, so there needed to be a delay between Tywin's death and the invasion.

Tywin being poisoned doesn't exonerate Tyrion of anything. Murdering a dying man is a murder nonetheless.

OK, so Varys poisoned Tywin, though there's zero evidence that Tywin was poisoned. Problem: It doesn't explain why Varys would send Tyrion off to Tywin's room to kill him. Varys says "oh dear don't do it," to Tyrion, but then he gives him exact instructions, complete with number of steps, etc. It really looks like Jaime's unexpected confession is a lightbulb moment for Varys: Tyrion's furious to the point of murder. Let's take advantage of that, shall we? But if Varys has already poisoned Tywin, why would he bother? He wants Tyrion in Essos, as he hopes to use him as adviser to Aegon. This killing just adds risk, where none is needed...so long as Varys poisoned Tywin, of course.

If Varys didn't poison Tywin, then it all falls into place, as Tywin, dead, is more important than Tyrion as adviser. 

Re Tywin's poisoning not being an exoneration: Again I disagree. In fact, it's the worst kind of exoneration; it shows the author wants to have his cake and eat it, too: Of course Tyrion killed Tywin, cuz he thought he did, but wink wink, he didn't, not really, cuz Varys (or Oberyn, or whoever) did the real deed.

Ah, whatever. We'll see.

 

EDIT: Also, that exoneration is the only reason why we'd find out three books after the fact that Varys or someone else poisoned Tywin. Tywin's dead and gone. There was no mystery about his murder. The only purpose behind such a disclosure would be to take the brunt of the murder off Tyrion; otherwise, it's pointless.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

The only purpose behind such a disclosure would be to take the brunt of the murder off Tyrion; otherwise, it's pointless.

No, it would show that Varys (GRRM) has been working on his fAegon plan since the beginning of the series and the reader just didn't have all of the information till after fAegon's reveal and the death's of Kevan and Pycelle.

Varys (although sneaky) is seen as a good guy until you see that he working on installing a fake on the Throne and has no real interest in what is truly best for Westeros.

GRRM letting the reader know that Varys poisoned Tywin would not make sense at the time, and tip his hand to much.

[aryagonnakill#2]

OK, so Varys poisoned Tywin, though there's zero evidence that Tywin was poisoned.

 

Evidence is not the same thing as proof, there is no proof Tywin was poisoned, there is plenty of evidence.  Pycelle specifically mentions the poison at Tyrions trial, Tywins body smells incredibly foul even after being stuffed full of scented flowers, and was on the toilet long enough that Shae had fallen asleep.  Last, even though he had been on the toilet long enough for Shae to fall asleep, his bowels were still full and did not empty until he died.

[kimim]

No, it would show that Varys (GRRM) has been working on his fAegon plan since the beginning of the series and the reader just didn't have all of the information till after fAegon's reveal and the death's of Kevan and Pycelle.

Varys (although sneaky) is seen as a good guy until you see that he working on installing a fake on the Throne and has no real interest in what is truly best for Westeros.

GRRM letting the reader know that Varys poisoned Tywin would not make sense at the time, and tip his hand to much.

It's unnecessary, as we already know that Varys is implicated in Tywin's death: See the way Varys leads Tyrion step by step, foot by foot, to Tywin's room. Tyrion was the weapon, Varys the person who wielded the weapon.

Adding a poisoning on top of it doesn't tell us that Varys is implicated, as we already know he is.

The only point of adding the poisoning would be to exculpate Tyrion.

[Ygrain]

 Problem: It doesn't explain why Varys would send Tyrion off to Tywin's room to kill him. 

I believe I explained in the OP, but I will reiterate: 

If Tywin died of poison, someone might figure out and then there would be a hunt for the poisoner. Oberyn would have been a perfect scapegoat, but Oberyn died. Having Tywin die by Tyrion's hand completely removes any suspicion about poison. In the OP, I speculated that Pycelle was killed because he might have figured out why the body stank so much.

 

[kimim]

I believe I explained in the OP, but I will reiterate: 

If Tywin died of poison, someone might figure out and then there would be a hunt for the poisoner. Oberyn would have been a perfect scapegoat, but Oberyn died. Having Tywin die by Tyrion's hand completely removes any suspicion about poison. In the OP, I speculated that Pycelle was killed because he might have figured out why the body stank so much.

 

You could make this argument if Varys had stayed on as the spymaster. Since he disappears after Tywin's death, the argument doesn't work.

[The King In Yellow]

With Oberyn it's more like an easter egg that if you find it it's amusing but doesn't change the story very much.

I totally agree. Oberyn had the opportunity while bothe Mace and Oberyn were comparing wines with Tywin. Mace would never try Oberyns wine, and Oberyn would have an anitidote handy. 

The fact that Tywin is dead is the event both scenarios lead to (with Oberyn or Tyrion as the killer), you can believe the easy story (Tyrion) or the slightly more complex story (Oberyn, followed by Tyrion). The Oberyn opportunity is just another layer that puts a smile on my face and is what makes GRRM's writing so intriguing.

Varys on the other hand... He has some motive and there may even be some hints. I find that scenario less interesting. 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

It's unnecessary, as we already know that Varys is implicated in Tywin's death: See the way Varys leads Tyrion step by step, foot by foot, to Tywin's room. Tyrion was the weapon, Varys the person who wielded the weapon.

Adding a poisoning on top of it doesn't tell us that Varys is implicated, as we already know he is.

The only point of adding the poisoning would be to exculpate Tyrion.

That is if you assume that Varys was the poisoner. It could very well be Oberyn.

It would also be "Dues Ex Machina" for Varys to set all of it up for Tyrion to kill Tywin. Maybe he hopes it will happen. Maybe he did lead him by the Tower to see if Tyrion would take the bait, but there is no way that Varys could be sure 1: That Tyrion would kill his father and 2: That Tyrion wouldn't be caught and rat him out as the one who freed him.

[kimim]

That is if you assume that Varys was the poisoner. It could very well be Oberyn.

It would also be "Dues Ex Machina" for Varys to set all of it up for Tyrion to kill Tywin. Maybe he hopes it will happen. Maybe he did lead him by the Tower to see if Tyrion would take the bait, but there is no way that Varys could be sure 1: That Tyrion would kill his father and 2: That Tyrion wouldn't be caught and rat him out as the one who freed him.

 

GRRM has been setting up Tyrion vs Tywin for three books. Finding out that his father and brother lied to him about Tysha is the straw that breaks Tyrion's sanity, and finding Shae in Tywin's bed forces him beyond that point. It fits, thematically, and with the characters of both father and son. There is no need for extra murderers or poisoners, though I will agree that if you MUST have a poisoner, then Oberyn makes more sense than Varys.

Though I gotta ask, why? Why would we find out three books after the fact that Oberyn killed Tywin? Considering all the plots that are still ongoing while getting more and more complicated, isn't it nice to know that GRRM can bring something to a satisfying conclusion?