Dragonlords and Rhllorists

[RagnarokKing]

So something I have been wondering about for quite a while is how Rhllorists viewed the Dragonlords before the Doom.  I mean they worship this god of fire, light, and heat; and they are ruled to some extent, be it directly in Valyria or indirectly in one of the colonies, by these people who are masters of fire sorcery and ride around on dragons.  How could Rhllorists not consider the Dragonlords to be some kind of Chosen People, or something akin to demigods as children of Rhllor, etc.?  Was it simply because the Dragonlords had a "honor all gods equally" mentality, or they did view them as such but because of this mentality the Dragonlords had, the Rhllorists believed they had turn from the god who had made them great?  

I just wonder because if the Dragonlords did have a more skeptical attitude towards religion, why not recognize the one that could, or be twisted to, view them as just a step below that religion's God.  This would undoubtedly increase their power, as it would be like taking the Divine Right of Kings and increasing it ten-fold.  To obey the Dragonlords is to obey Rhllor, and vice-versa. It would be soldiers who would not just be inspired by having their army led by a Dragon-rider, but would also have the zealotry that only religions and ideologies can muster. And I'm sure there would be many more practical benefits of this.  But other than their own skepticism and the initial difficulties of enacting and enforcing this could they have had for not attempting this?  Because to me at least, a little lip-service and the initial cost seem worth the benefits.

[Lion of the West]

You are aware that R'hllor has one of the most demanding and intolerant doctrines we've seen in the series? The Faith were intolerant years ago but stopped with it, while the Red Priests have never stopped with theirs and actually have direct religious strife as a major part of their teachings? Unless you are ruling a territory where its mostly followers of R'hllor, general tolerance or local predominent gods would most likely have been preferable, not to mention that combining a priesthood with much influence over the population, with magical powers and then a doctrine of "us vs the evil ones/everyone else" makes for a very dangerous thing. Just look at how much issue the Faith Militant could cause without magic!

[RagnarokKing]

You are aware that R'hllor has one of the most demanding and intolerant doctrines we've seen in the series? The Faith were intolerant years ago but stopped with it, while the Red Priests have never stopped with theirs and actually have direct religious strife as a major part of their teachings? Unless you are ruling a territory where its mostly followers of R'hllor, general tolerance or local predominent gods would most likely have been preferable, not to mention that combining a priesthood with much influence over the population, with magical powers and then a doctrine of "us vs the evil ones/everyone else" makes for a very dangerous thing. Just look at how much issue the Faith Militant could cause without magic!

1. The Intolerance of Rhllorism:  Um exactly... If you're going to follow, or use, a religion with the intent of having it exalt you as the chosen people, demigods, etc. you don't want it to be tolerant.  You would want everyone, or just about everyone, to follow it, otherwise its pointless. Dragonlords: "We are the Children of Rhllor, to obey us is to obey Rhllor." Followers of any other religion: " Yeah well good for you we don't care."

2. General Tolerance best bet:  Well in a typical scenario where all you have to enforce your religion is your army and possible a secret police, then yeah this is sometimes true depending on the predominant religion in place, but this was successfully done in a number of places in real world history.  But the Dragonlords would not just have their army, but also their dragons and their powerful sorcery.  So yeah it might be a little bloody at first, and then take a few generation for Rhllorism to really have captured the majority's hearts and minds, but it would probably happen eventually.

3. Priesthood's Influence, Magic, Doctrine, Dangerous Thing: Once again, exactly.  Imagine a Rhllor "Faith Militant" or Fiery Hand as zealous and devoted to Rhllor and the Dragonlords as the Seven's Faith Militant is to the Seven and the High Sparrow.  In combination with their Dragons and sorcery, a religion which views them, and them alone, as their god's chosen people, they would essentially have ultimate power.

Btw, I want to make it clear that I am not advocating that this is what they should have done, not that it really matters because it's a fictional world.  But what I'm really trying to understand is why didn't they do this, because it just seems so obvious to me. As the old saying goes, "The foolish believe religion is true, the wise believe religion is foolish, and the powerful believe religion is useful."  Also I don't see it being some kind of moral high ground.  I mean mass slavery, incest, and the virtual destruction of the Rhoynar is a-okay, but religious manipulation and subsequent enforcement/persecution is crossing some sort of line?  I don't see it.

[Veloknight]

Valyria is in many ways a Roman analogue. The nature of the Roman Republic and subsequent Empire - a vast, culturally diverse place - required an official religion that accommodated and ideally assimilated local pantheons and religious traditions, smoothing over the differences between rulers and the ruled. Depending on their organization, big empires can actually be surprisingly tolerant of religious and cultural difference - it all depends on tolerance being a workable way to avoid conflict between your subjects.

Despite the Churchly nature of the Faith of the Seven, it's the Lord of Light who best resembles monotheistic religions. The intolerance is more recently a feature of Abrahamic religions, but I think the LoL better resembles Manichean theology. Either way, monotheist or bitheistic religions are an existential threat to an empire like Rome or Valyria, because the public order is maintained via official polytheism as the state religion. The minute one of your subject groups starts saying, "Here's OUR God, and he's not only way better than your God(s), but also their enemy and will slay them", it makes your nice, orderly empire a giant powderkeg of religious violence and social upheaval. Monotheism and State Polytheism are essentially allergic to each other, as the magnitude of conflict between the Roman Empire and their Jewish and Christian subjects attests.

The R'hllorist faith also shares some of the traits of early Christianity - it's heavily a slave religion, preaching a singular savior God locked in conflict with the omnipresent forces of Evil, which is probably more appealing to the downtrodden than a faith like the Seven, who pretty much embody the existing social order. Because it rejects all other faiths, loudly seeks to acquire more followers, and speaks to the downtrodden with a message of power and struggle, the religion of R'hllor as currently preached is inherently subversive to pretty much any non-R'hllor worshiping realm - now imagine how much worse it'd be to an empire that practiced widespread slavery over a huge and incredibly diverse set of cultures and religions, and which didn't seem to be the most politically stable arrangement to begin with. I don't know what the followers of the Lord of Light actually think about Valyria, but it's no surprise to me that the Valyrians didn't seem fond of them.

[Shierak Qiya]

The Valyrians had their own gods.  Balerion was named after a Valyrian god. 

[The scourge of westeros]

The valyrians did have their own gods, but what really interests me is the common denominator being blood sacrifice throughout the ancient religions. They religions had to have started from a common god/ancestor or at least the knowledge that blood sacrifice holds the key to magic. Asoiaf religion makes my head hurt 

[RagnarokKing]

Valyria is in many ways a Roman analogue. The nature of the Roman Republic and subsequent Empire - a vast, culturally diverse place - required an official religion that accommodated and ideally assimilated local pantheons and religious traditions, smoothing over the differences between rulers and the ruled. Depending on their organization, big empires can actually be surprisingly tolerant of religious and cultural difference - it all depends on tolerance being a workable way to avoid conflict between your subjects.

Despite the Churchly nature of the Faith of the Seven, it's the Lord of Light who best resembles monotheistic religions. The intolerance is more recently a feature of Abrahamic religions, but I think the LoL better resembles Manichean theology. Either way, monotheist or bitheistic religions are an existential threat to an empire like Rome or Valyria, because the public order is maintained via official polytheism as the state religion. The minute one of your subject groups starts saying, "Here's OUR God, and he's not only way better than your God(s), but also their enemy and will slay them", it makes your nice, orderly empire a giant powderkeg of religious violence and social upheaval. Monotheism and State Polytheism are essentially allergic to each other, as the magnitude of conflict between the Roman Empire and their Jewish and Christian subjects attests.

The R'hllorist faith also shares some of the traits of early Christianity - it's heavily a slave religion, preaching a singular savior God locked in conflict with the omnipresent forces of Evil, which is probably more appealing to the downtrodden than a faith like the Seven, who pretty much embody the existing social order. Because it rejects all other faiths, loudly seeks to acquire more followers, and speaks to the downtrodden with a message of power and struggle, the religion of R'hllor as currently preached is inherently subversive to pretty much any non-R'hllor worshiping realm - now imagine how much worse it'd be to an empire that practiced widespread slavery over a huge and incredibly diverse set of cultures and religions, and which didn't seem to be the most politically stable arrangement to begin with. I don't know what the followers of the Lord of Light actually think about Valyria, but it's no surprise to me that the Valyrians didn't seem fond of them.

You make some good points about the Romans and that R'hllorism seems to be adhered by many slaves, but it would still seem to be a prominent religion among the free and powerful, such as Illyrio, who would appeared to be at least nominally R'hllorist.  Now back to the Romans, yes, the Romans did seem to prefer to follow the route of religious tolerance through a large part of its history.  However the Romans didn't enjoy some of the advantages that the Valyrians did, namely dragons and sorcery. So the powder-keg of religious violence and social upheaval would have been so large as it would have been for the Romans.  And once the dust settles they are even more powerful than they were before.

The Valyrians had their own gods.  Balerion was named after a Valyrian god. 

Great argument, because it not like any people-group or society has ever converted/switch religions.  Especially not because of manipulation from their rulers for the purpose of political power.  COUGH... Roman Empire... COUGH... Constatine ... COUGH ... Theodosius ... COUGH.  Please excuse me, seemed to have had some phelgm.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

IIRC, Valyrians didn't enforce their religion as the State Religion and instead encouraged polytheism for political reasons, so the masses wouldn't be united against the central power, and so they avoided large scale slave revolts (then again, they had dragons.)

As example of their religious tolerance there's Qohor, Norvos and Lorath, founded by dissidents in remote locations of the Freehold fleeing the religious policy (of tolerance) of the Valyrians.

[Magnar of Skagos]

It'd be nice if Melissandre could mention Valyria so we'd get a clearer picture as to how she sees dragons and the Valyrians...

[Blackfyre Bastard]

 

It'd be nice if Melissandre could mention Valyria so we'd get a clearer picture as to how she sees dragons and the Valyrians...

If by that you mean that Melisandre is actually pre-Doom old, yeah, I'm with you.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Because the Dragonlords were atheist, just like it says in the worldbook.  You might as well ask why Democrats don't pretend to be religious(real democrats that is).

[RagnarokKing]

Because the Dragonlords were atheist, just like it says in the worldbook.  You might as well ask why Democrats don't pretend to be religious(real democrats that is).

Yeah I think your missing the point.  I mention in my OP that the Dragonlords seem to have been skeptical towards religion and like I said in an earlier post, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." (Btw I misquoted in earlier, this is to my current knowledge the actual quote by Seneca the Younger.)  This entire hypothetical situation hinges on the idea that they were atheists.  If they actually believed in the own gods to any meaningful degree, then obviously they wouldn't have done this.

Basically the Dragonlords would realize, "Huh, based on what we can do (fire magic of unparalleled ability), and what we have as pets (dragons), with just a little bit of lip service and manipulation of their religion, we could make these idiots (R'hllorists) think we are just a step below their supposed god.  Essentially using their fanatic devotion to increase our power even more."

[aryagonnakill#2]

Yeah I think your missing the point.  I mention in my OP that the Dragonlords seem to have been skeptical towards religion and like I said in an earlier post, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." (Btw I misquoted in earlier, this is to my current knowledge the actual quote by Seneca the Younger.)  This entire hypothetical situation hinges on the idea that they were atheists.  If they actually believed in the own gods to any meaningful degree, then obviously they wouldn't have done this.

Basically the Dragonlords would realize, "Huh, based on what we can do (fire magic of unparalleled ability), and what we have as pets (dragons), with just a little bit of lip service and manipulation of their religion, we could make these idiots (R'hllorists) think we are just a step below their supposed god.  Essentially using their fanatic devotion to increase our power even more."

Ya I see your point.  I always viewed the Dragonlords as just seeing themselves so far above everything that they didn't really care.  They don't really seem all that obsessed with power, after all they let the free cities rule themselves.

[Magnar of Skagos]

 

If by that you mean that Melisandre is actually pre-Doom old, yeah, I'm with you.

I doubt she is that old. I meant that I want to hear what she (and by extension the other Red Priests) think of dragons.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Valyria was ruled by a collection of about 40 different families, right? All of whom were constantly fighting for power and prestige? It's not unreasonable to say that if dragonlords were worshipped directly as R'holler demigods, that fighting would have been even worse. So it's notably safer to stick with broad and inclusive polytheism.

[RagnarokKing]

Ya I see your point.  I always viewed the Dragonlords as just seeing themselves so far above everything that they didn't really care.  They don't really seem all that obsessed with power, after all they let the free cities rule themselves.

Valyria was ruled by a collection of about 40 different families, right? All of whom were constantly fighting for power and prestige? It's not unreasonable to say that if dragonlords were worshipped directly as R'holler demigods, that fighting would have been even worse. So it's notably safer to stick with broad and inclusive polytheism.

I think these are some really good points, they go along with what a friend told when I told him this scenario.  He thought if Valyria was ruled by one Emperor then this scenario would work really well, but with the multiple Dragonlord families it would probably eventually lead to a massive dance of dragons.  Also that they viewed themselves as the apex already, and that they didn't care what the lesser peoples thought of them.

I doubt she is that old. I meant that I want to hear what she (and by extension the other Red Priests) think of dragons.

Yeah I still want to know how they think of dragons and those who control them.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Upon a little further digging, I have found that Benerro, the high priest of R'hllor, views Daenerys as Azor Ahai reborn.

[Veloknight]

You make some good points about the Romans and that R'hllorism seems to be adhered by many slaves, but it would still seem to be a prominent religion among the free and powerful, such as Illyrio, who would appeared to be at least nominally R'hllorist.  Now back to the Romans, yes, the Romans did seem to prefer to follow the route of religious tolerance through a large part of its history.  However the Romans didn't enjoy some of the advantages that the Valyrians did, namely dragons and sorcery. So the powder-keg of religious violence and social upheaval would have been so large as it would have been for the Romans.  And once the dust settles they are even more powerful than they were before.

Great argument, because it not like any people-group or society has ever converted/switch religions.  Especially not because of manipulation from their rulers for the purpose of political power.  COUGH... Roman Empire... COUGH... Constatine ... COUGH ... Theodosius ... COUGH.  Please excuse me, seemed to have had some phelgm.

Actually, I doubt dragons would help much. Religious conflicts often become asymmetrical in nature, which lowers the dragon advantage considerably. Plus, dragons are vulnerable to massed attack when on the ground - as shown in the Dance of the Dragons. Given how many people the Valyrians have pissed off - and how they're completely dependent on draconic power to keep them on top - I definitely think that the Valyrians would see R'hllorism as a threat.

 

More broadly, on the Constantine issue: I think Valyria's internal structure is much more like the Roman Republic. Many elite men tried to claim power in the Republic by acting as a champion for the plebians, but the patricians often viewed this as a direct threat not only to their privilege, but to themselves, and they typically killed those who tried that sort of power play. Put another way: if I'm one of the 40 families, and I see some other house (say, for giggles, the Targaryens) converting to this popular religion with mass appeal, a fanatic intolerance for my own gods (however seriously I take my religion doesn't matter that much, honestly) and those of the other 40, what am I going to think? I personally would suspect that they aim to topple the existing order - since their tenets are certainly quite radical - and place themselves atop a new one. My reaction, a rational one at that, is to strike at this new threat.

 

IIRC, Valyrians didn't enforce their religion as the State Religion and instead encouraged polytheism for political reasons, so the masses wouldn't be united against the central power, and so they avoided large scale slave revolts (then again, they had dragons.)

As example of their religious tolerance there's Qohor, Norvos and Lorath, founded by dissidents in remote locations of the Freehold fleeing the religious policy (of tolerance) of the Valyrians.

Thanks for the info, I don't have the World Book so I didn't know that. It's also worth noting that religious faith among the Roman elites probably varied wildly, and it's difficult to separate the political and religious motives there. Either way, a polytheistic multiethnic empire is inherently threatened by an evangelizing monotheistic religion, especially once concentrating on the lower classes.

Because the Dragonlords were atheist, just like it says in the worldbook.  You might as well ask why Democrats don't pretend to be religious(real democrats that is).

.....I'm not sure what to make of either of the parts of that comment. Most people I've met (certainly myself!) seem to experience religious faith in a different kind of way than fundamentalists do, with religion being a separate part of our being from, to use blunt word, the rational part. I suspect that the Valyrians probably had a wide range of religiosity, they just didn't bind themselves to religious laws - which, given the omnipresence and power of Valyrian magic, is hardly surprising. I don't understand why subscribing to a center-left political party makes you an athiest, either, but that's OT.

[aryagonnakill#2]

 

Not sure why you responded to my post at all, especially since I clarified my position further down the thread, but since you have clearly misunderstood or worse, I now feel I have to respond as well.  Since I won't insult you I hope you'll let it die here.

My being a democrat does not make me an atheist, my being an atheist contributes to my political views lining up more closly with the democratic party.  In any event, I was only making a comparison to the real world because sometimes that is easier to picture.