are there still first men in Essos?

[purple-eyes]

it is impossible that all of them migrated to westeros, I guess. 

So people in free cities must be a mixture of Andal, Royna, first men and Valyria people, am I right?

I am so confused about this. 

Is it too aggressive for Targ to call themselves the king of Andal, royna and first men?

And theoretically they should call themselves king of valyria by the origin, but they did not. 

confusing.............. 

[Magnar of Skagos]

In all likelihood, what the Westerosi call the "First Men" must also exist somewhere in Essos. All we know them is that an ethnic group came to Westeros. We don't know if the immigrants were only half the actually number of "First Men" in the world or not. Perhaps some of these ancient peoples did not migrate straight to Westeros, and instead went and colonized Andalos, or even Qarth. There's no real way to know. I'd like to hear from some of the other ethnic groups on Planetos as to where their people come from, since all we really know of are the Westerosi. Where did the Dothraki come from? The Qartheen? The Old Ghiscari people? etc. 

[Veloknight]

Seems likely that FM culture either fractured or assimilated on Essos, and either way evolved to be very different from Westerosi First Men. Don't forget that in Westeros, the First Men are heavily influenced by the Children of the Forest, and are thus already religiously and culturally separate from all of Essos.

 

As for hubris - Kings of England called themselves Kings of France as well, for centuries after France expelled the last English outpost. At least the Westerosi title is content to stay on the landmass. (Granted, said landmass being twice the size of all Europe, but still, they actually hold the territories they claim to rule).

[TheSovereignGrave]

Is it too aggressive for Targ to call themselves the king of Andal, royna and first men?

And theoretically they should call themselves king of valyria by the origin, but they did not. 

confusing.............. 

How? They rule over all of the Andals and First Men (since it's likely that any that remained in Essos were assimilated into other groups or evolved into something else over time) and most of the Rhoynar (and certainly the only ones with any kind of major power).

And that makes no sense. Why would they claim to be Kings of Valyria when they're nowhere near it and weren't even one of the more powerful families of the Dragonlords. Besides, Aegon the Conqueror is pretty much explicitly said to have had little to no interest in Essos, especially after aiding in the fall of the Volantene New Valyria. Why would style himself King of a land he didn't care about?

[purple-eyes]

How? They rule over all of the Andals and First Men (since it's likely that any that remained in Essos were assimilated into other groups or evolved into something else over time) and most of the Rhoynar (and certainly the only ones with any kind of major power).

And that makes no sense. Why would they claim to be Kings of Valyria when they're nowhere near it and weren't even one of the more powerful families of the Dragonlords. Besides, Aegon the Conqueror is pretty much explicitly said to have had little to no interest in Essos, especially after aiding in the fall of the Volantene New Valyria. Why would style himself King of a land he didn't care about?

Myr's people were said to be possibly akin to Rhoynar. It is a big free city. 

I am not saying the land. Targ is the only dragon lord house after the doom. Dragon lord houses are ruling houses for valyrian people. 

One remaining dragon lord claimed himself as emperor of Valyria after the doom. 

So technically, they can claim they are the head of Valyria people. 

[Veloknight]

Myr's people were said to be possibly akin to Rhoynar. It is a big free city. 

I am not saying the land. Targ is the only dragon lord house after the doom. Dragon lord houses are ruling houses for valyrian people. 

One remaining dragon lord claimed himself as emperor of Valyria after the doom. 

So technically, they can claim they are the head of Valyria people. 

There aren't any Valyrians anymore. There are the Ghiscari-Valyrians, who in spite of their culture as as Valyrian as anything else (and their language reflects this); there are the Free Cities Valyrians, each of which has a distinct dialect and cultural heritage; and there are the west Valyrians like the Targaryens, Velaryons, (Qorgyles?), etc., who are assimilated to some extent with Westeros, even if apart in key ways.

[FuzzyJAM]

Seems like "First Men" only came into existence after they crossed the Arm.  There wasn't a particular ethnic group that crossed the Arm and peopled Westeros, but rather the ethnic group itself was birthed on Westeros.  They're not the same as the Andals or Rhoynar, who were a people on Essos before choosing to move to Westeros.  

So no, there aren't First Men on Essos (except those who have emigrated back from Westeros, of course) because there never was a group called the "First Men" there.  You only get to be part of the "First Men" group when you arrive on Westeros pre-broken Arm.  

[Orphalesion]

Myr's people were said to be possibly akin to Rhoynar. It is a big free city. 

I am not saying the land. Targ is the only dragon lord house after the doom. Dragon lord houses are ruling houses for valyrian people. 

One remaining dragon lord claimed himself as emperor of Valyria after the doom. 

So technically, they can claim they are the head of Valyria people. 

 

It would make no sense at all for the Targaryens to style themselves "Kings of Valyria/the Valyrians" unless they ruled over Valyria and/or a Valyrian people.

However they do rule over the First Men, Rhoynar and Andals, so they can style themselves as Kings of those people/tribes.

They started out as Valyrian (though by the time of Aerys II, I'd call them Westerosi) who were Kings of the First men, Andals and Rhoynar, this did not automatically grant them titles or authority as far as any other possible survivors of Valyria were concerned.

Compare Cleopatra; she was the last ruler of the Ptolemaic Dynasty. The Ptolemeans were Macedonians, but they ruled over Egypt. So Cleopatra was Queen of Egypt, but she never was or considered herself Queen of Macedonia.

Theoretically the Targaryens could, if they liked style themselves Kings of Valyria, if only because the title is vacant (due to Valyria and her people no longer existing) but iunless they'd conquer land in the Valyrian peninsular, the title would be hollow, like various European nobles styling themselves Dukes of Jerusalem, long after the Crusader Kingdom had ceased to exist.

It's pretty pointless to claim authority over something that just isn't there any longer. 

As for Myr, "possibly being akin" to the Rhoynar is still a far cry from being Rhoynar. Realistically speaking a good chunk of the inhabitants of the Free Cities woud have a mixture of First Men, Andal, Valyrian and Rhoynar ancestry (plus probably more) However that doesn't mean that these cultures still exist in Essos. The people there now consider themselves to be Volantese, Myrish, Braavosi etc. Cultures change over the centures.

As far as we know, there aren't any distinct Andal, First men, Rhoynar or Valyrian populations left in Essos, nor do any identify as such. 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Myr's people were said to be possibly akin to Rhoynar. It is a big free city. 

I am not saying the land. Targ is the only dragon lord house after the doom. Dragon lord houses are ruling houses for valyrian people. 

One remaining dragon lord claimed himself as emperor of Valyria after the doom. 

So technically, they can claim they are the head of Valyria people. 

See, the difference between the Dragon,lord who claimed to be Emperor of Valyria and the Targaryens is that the "Emperor" gathered an army and marched off to actually claim the remnants of the Freehold. The Targaryens never even tried such a thing as far as I know. And as I mentioned earlier, Aegon the Conqueror had pretty much no interest in recreating Valyria so it'd make littler sense for him to style himself as ruler of a land he cared nothing for.

 

And as for Myr, the only possible connection between them and the Rhoynar is that Myrmen had darker skin and hair. That's hardly proof of anything. Especially considered Myr as we know it was founded by Valyrian merchants on the site of an Andal settlement.

 

And they're not really the only remaining Valyrians. Even discounting the Ghiscari, since culturally they're quite distinct aside from their language being bastardized Valyrian, most of the Free Cities are quite Valyrian in many ways. Especially Volantis.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Probably some exiled ones etc.

[Dofs]

As far as we know, there aren't any distinct Andal, First men, Rhoynar or Valyrian populations left in Essos, nor do any identify as such. 

That's not true, Rhoynar still live in Essos. Tyrion passed the ruins of Rhoynar cities with some people still living there, and some even were on the ship with him - people who identified themselves as Rhoynar and who were from Essos. 

[The Three Whores]

I believe Dofs is right about the Roynar, which isn't a surprise. The Rhoynar was a massive civilization and it's not like the Valyrians would have killed them all. The Valyrian's preferred conquering instead of wiping a people out. Also, while it hasn't been explicitly said, its implied that the Rhoyne is still pretty populated.

As for the Andals, Martin was asked about it once and said that much of the original culture in Andalos no longer remains, due to being conquered by Valyria, by immigration, ect...

As for the First Men, I doubt there are any of purely that particular ethnicity still remaining in Essos. The First crossed to Westeros a long time ago, and since then Western Essos has most likely had huge influxes of people move in as a result of Valyian conquest, the Century of Blood, ect. ect.

Also gotta remember the thousands and thousand of slaves brought to Essos. These days the continent is pretty much a big melting pot of cultures and ethnicities.

[Jaak]

The Arm was broken into Stepstones, incl. Tyrosh, after First Men crossed. So we know that First Men used to live in Tyrosh.

As for Myr, we are directly told that it was an Andal city before Valyrians conquered it.

How about Tyrosh and Lys? Who lived there before Valyrian arrival? Andals, First Men, or some other people?

There is a big tract of land in southwest Essos, south of Myr, north of Orange Shore, east of Tyrosh and west of Volantis and lower Rhoyne. Called Disputed Lands. Who live there now? And who lived there at the time of Valyrian Conquest?

[TheHodorThatWasPromised]

are there still first men in Essos?

Yes there is atleast two people in Essos who can claim First Men heritage: Jorah and Arya^*. 

When Victarion and his men arrives there will be a couple of thousand more. 

 

 

^{*) stricktly speaking Arya is half Andal and half First Men.}

[Orphalesion]

That's not true, Rhoynar still live in Essos. Tyrion passed the ruins of Rhoynar cities with some people still living there, and some even were on the ship with him - people who identified themselves as Rhoynar and who were from Essos. 

Right!

The difference here might also be that the flight of the Rhoynar happened much more recent than either thre First Men or Andal migrations.

[Jaak]

Right!

The difference here might also be that the flight of the Rhoynar happened much more recent than either thre First Men or Andal migrations.

But the Andals were around quite recently.

Scouring of Lorath was about 1400 years before Doom - and it was the people of Lorath isles who were burnt to last soul, not the mainland subjects of Qarlon as far west as Braavos. And this leaves the question of Andals further south along the eastern shore of Narrow Seas. Valyrian conquest of Rhoynar was 600 years before Doom. When did Valyrians conquer Myr and Pentosh, both attested to have been Andal settlements at the time?

[Dofs]

Imo, because of the vast exodus of Andal population to Westeros, the Andal civilization in Essos became weaker and got assimilated with other cultures (for the most part with the cultures of the Free Cities). But there could be still Andal villages deep in the Andalos, it's not impossible, similar how there are still Roynar on the Royne who are too weak and who are too few to rebuild their cities and civilization, but who are too detached from other cultures to get assimilated.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

If there were, would it be fair to say that they are Last Men instead of First Men? 

[Jaak]

Imo, because of the vast exodus of Andal population to Westeros, the Andal civilization in Essos became weaker and got assimilated with other cultures (for the most part with the cultures of the Free Cities).

When was that supposed to start? When exactly were Pentos, Myr and Tyrosh founded?

[Falcon2908]

When was that supposed to start? When exactly were Pentos, Myr and Tyrosh founded?

Pentos began as a trading outpost and Tyrosh began as a Military outpost. Both were built by the Valyrians.

As for Myr, it was possibly inhabited by the proto-valyrians during the dawn-age before the long night. Then some andals took over it, which was then conquered by some Valyrian traders.

All of the Free Cities were founded by the Valyrians, save for Braavos and perhaps Myr