A River of Time - Group project :) (New proof settling when Andals arrived?)

[AlaskanSandman]

So this thread will be an attempt to piece together the history using what we know from the books about the Riverlands. From there im hoping every one reading this can add to the time thread by incorporating further accounts or kings into the time line we build. This way as a group we can hopefully come to a general agreement about certain points of the story. One period of rule in definite need of further accounts is the years of reign under House Teague, as we know the least about them. Lets begin though. 

• House Bracken rule the River lands for an unknown period of time? First ruling house?
• House Blackwood rule the River lands after usurping the Brackens. Blackwoods or Northern origin till being ousted by the Kings of Winter, House Stark.
• House Fisher rule of the Riverlands???? First House, 2nd, or 3rd to rule the riverlands?? Destroyed by either the Ironborn or the Storm Kings. The Fishers of the Stony Shore (In the North) were First Men kings after the Long Night who were eventually defeated and reduced to vassals by the Kings of Winter, House Stark of Winterfell.
• Urragon III Greyiron                                                                                                   UMMMMMM.......... THE LONG NIGHT??? YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE
  Urrathon IV Goodbrother, known as Badbrother. (Why? Are the GreyIrons the direct decent of the Grey King?)
  Torgon Greyiron, known as Torgon the Latecomer.
  Urragon IV Greyiron
  Urron Greyiron, known as Urron Redhand, the last High King of the Iron Islands????
• House Mudd take over? House Mudd rule for more than 1000 years          - Age of Heroes??   Time of Urron Red Hand GreyIron?? House went on to rule for 1000 years uncontested.      Duran God's grief  during House Mudd rule as only 23 kings inferred in list of Stormkings. Duran I may have lived 1000 years though
• Ser Artys Arryn The Winged Knight and Andal Invasion of the Vale during last generation (30-40 years) of House Mudds rule of the Riverlands.      Erich VII Durrandon "The Unready" rules in Stormlands but ignores Andal Invasion of Vale, instead trying to reconquer Massey's Hook from Justin Milk Eye. Died as Andals conquered the Vale. 
• Age of Heroes ended with the Invasion of the Andals. Erich VII succeeded by unknown son who then begets Qarlton II Durrandon.
• Roland I Arryn-The grandson of King Artys I, rules in the Vale. Started construction of the Vale.  Rule of Qarlton II Durrandon in the Stormlands, great grandson of Erich VII .                                   End of the Age of Heroes??
• Trister IV Mudd vs  Roland II Arryn then 7 Andal Kings, greatest of which was  Armistead Vance. Roland II was the great-grandson of King Roland I, who first started constructing the Eyrie  (Beginning of Andal invasion of the Riverlands?) Time of Theon Stark? Qarlton III Durrandon, son of Qarlton II rules in Stormlands.
• Trister V Mudd  last of the First Men Kings of the Reach. Time of Tybolt Lannister in the Westerlands? Monfryd V Durrandon, son of Qarlton III rules in Stormlands.
• (Andal Invasion-interim unknown) Time of Rognar II GreyIron and Harras Stump Hand Hoare?? Hoare take over during Andal Invasion of IronIslands, ending House GreyIron.
• Ser Benedict Rivers/Justman I  bastard of houses Bracken and Blackwood (allegedly)
• House Justman rule for almost 300 years.  Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper vs Theon Stark around this time?
• Benedict II Justman - added Duskendale, Rosby, and mouth of Blackwater rush to the Justman realm.
• Bernarr II Justman killed by Qhored I Hoare.         
• Qhored I Hoare (House Hoare haven taken throne following extinction of House GreyIron) later Qhored sacks Old Town -Ironborn expansion? Harrag Hoare who took Bear Island around this time?? Time of Theon Stark??? Jon Stark fighting sea Raiders and building Wolfs Den around this time??
• 100 years of Anarchy in Riverlands following Qhored I Hoare       5th Ghiscari War?
• Torrence Teague (Andal Adventurer of unknown origin) founds House Teague. Having seized a fortune in gold in an attack upon the Westerlands, he used this wealth to bring large numbers of sellswords from across the Narrow Sea. After six years of war, Torrence was crowned King of the Trident at Maidenpool.  Rhoynish wars?? Scouring of Lorath??? 
• Theo Teague - 4th Teague king. The saddle sore. Rode around whole reign crushing rebellions and hanging hostages.
• Unknown length of rule for House Teague. - House Manderly goes North sometime during Teague rule, 900-1000 years before current story. Arlan I "The Avenger" (extended the borders of the Kingdom of the Storm as far as the Blackwater Rush and the headwaters of the Mander,ruled during the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms) and Arlan II Durrandon in Stormlands in the last century of Teague rule. 800-700 years ago
• Humfrey Teague killed by Arlan Durrandon III (Great grandson of Arlan I, son or grandson of Arlan II)  - about 700 years ago. Fought against houses Blackwood, Tully, both branches of Vance, Bracken, and Smallwood with the aid of the Faith Militant in the Battle of Six Kings. 
• Arlan Durrandon III (Great grandson of Arlan I, son or grandson of Arlan II) and 300 years of Durrandon rule in the Riverlands. - Valyrian swords acquired by Westerosi Houses 100-200 years into Durrandon rule of Riverlands.
• Arrec Durrandon killed by Harwyn Hoare - Doom of Valyria around this time about 400 years ago
• King Harold (Hoare?) (HIgh King of Iron Isles, as other houses reduced to lords.) King Lancel IV and Lancel V around this time. Lancel IV uses Brightroar to kill King Harold of the Iron Isles. King Arlan V Durrandon rule in Stormlands, son or Arrec, father of Argilac.
• Harwyn Hoare and rule of House Hoare in Riverlands for 3 generations.  
• Halleck Hoare, son or Harwyn Hoare. Time of Tommen II Lannister who sailed to Valyria never to return, taking Brightroar with him.
• Harren the Black Hoare, son of Halleck, grandson of Harwyn Hoare. 3-302 years ago to present story ruling the Riverlands and Iron Isles. Time of Aegon the Conqueror. Arrec Durrandons Grandchild and Arlan V's son, Argilac ruling in Stormlands at this time. Mern IX Gardener ruling in the Reach. 

 

Ok so, some more notes i can definitely add my self, like the other ruling kings in the time of Aegon the Conqueror, but it's late and ill add more as we go.

Note the time between Harren the Black to House Teague. This is about 700 years going back. As you can see, the Andal Invasions begin way back before House Justman and House Teague. So how long his House Teague's rule? House Justman only ruled for about 300 years going back into the Andal Invasions, this suggest a couple things about Teague rule. Most Maesters suggest the Andals came 6000 years ago, that would mean the Teague's would have to rule for about 5300 years to make this possible. Making them the oldest ruling house of the Riverlands. Keep in mind the text says they were ill liked by the River lords and had to take daughters of the lords just to keep them in line. This doesn't sound like the basis of a long prosperous rule. 

The Other alternative put forth by the Maesters and or Septons is that the Andals Invaded 2000 years ago. This would mean the Teagues would only have to rule for a 1300 year time span about. This is a little more believable, though given their status with the River lords, even this sounds like a stretch, but still more believable. 

There is much and more i hope we can all add into this, like when the scouring of Lorath happened and the last flight or possible death of the Andals in Essos. (Possible death being at the hands of Theon Stark. This is the point of the thread though, to discuss where these figures fit in) If the Andals Invaded 2000 years ago, and the scouring of Lorath was between say 1700-1300 years ago... that would mean the Age of Heroes ended with the Andal Invasion 2000 years ago and more.

Edit. 

Note the lack of time needed for Qhored I Hoare to have been before the 1000 alleged GreyIron rule. Harreg Hoare likely the last High King chosen by Kings moot, not Urron Redhand.

Note that if the Teague rule is only 900 years, that puts us back 2000 years ago. This added in with the 1000 year rule of the House Mudd and the 300 year rule of the Justmans only brings us to 3300 years ago. When did Valyria destroy Old Ghis? 

Note also the Ironborn expansion again around the time of the Doom. Is this coincidence? Did they think the Valyrians would support them? What were the Iron born thinking, or were they unaware of the coming Valyrians? 

Edit.- Placing Theon Stark around the time of Qhored in association with Ironborn expansion and what we know about the Hoare sigil. Did Harren learn from this attempt at taking the Riverlands with out establishing a lasting rule?

Edit- Correction on time regarding Teague rule in accordance to how far back we are in history. Gave better reference points. 

Also include Manderly move North and possible placement of Jon Stark.

Replacement of Scouring of Lorath and Rhoynish wars based on where we are in time 12-1300 years ago.

Edit. 12-6-15 Benedict and Bernarr II Justman correction. Stupid mistake late at night. More notes on Justmans and Teagues also.

 

The Blackwoods usurpation of the Brackens or vice versa. Blackwoods believe this occurred five hundred years before the arrival of the Andals, but the True History states it was one thousand years before the Andals. Either or puts the length of rule of House Mudd into question. Unless House Mudd ruled a different area at the same time as the area ruled by the Blackwoods and Brackens. Above statement of 500 years would make some sense. Say Mudd is 1000 year reign, and that Brackens started at the same time, but 500 years in, Blackwoods come south and Usurp them. Idk. This part requires a lil speculation. 

 

House Fisher, when did they rule??? 1st, 2nd or 3rd???? Or did they all rule at the same time??? Thoughts??? Did the Fisher's and Blackwood's move south together? Both noted as being expelled or extinguished by the Starks.                Where is Misty Isle????? It's called Isle, not Isles, like the Iron Isles. So one Island.... Gods Eye????? Thoughts?? Are these the Green Kings??

 

Based on Roland II, you can pretty much figure out when Ser Artys Aryn ruled in the Vale

 

This is a list of Iron born High Kings in direct succession in Blue, with the unknown kings in red. This is lines up with how the wiki list them, i just separated the ones where direct decent wasn't known.

• The Grey King
• Urras GreyIron
• Erich I GreyIron
• Regnar Drumm
• (Group A in red ???)
• Urragon III GreyIron
• Urathon IV Goodbrother
• Torgon GreyIron
• Urragon IV GreyIron
• (1000 years of GreyIron rule ???)
• Rognar II GreyIron
• Harras Hoare
• (Group B in Red ???)
• Harmund I Hoare
• Harmund II Hoare
• Harmund III Hoare
• Hagon Hoare
• Aubrey Crakehall
• ( No kings listed in between, Unknown gap or maybe no gap at all)
• Qhorwyn Hoare
• Harwyn Hoare
• Halleck Hoare
• Harren Hoare

Group A

• Sylas Flatnose
• Harrag Hoare
• Loron GreyIron
• Qhored Hoare
• Theon III Greyjoy
• Balon V Greyjoy
• Erich V Harlaw
• Harron Harlaw
• Joron I Blacktyde

Group B 

• Wulgar Hoare
• Horgan Hoare
• Fergan Hoare
• Othgar I Hoare
• Othgar II Hoare
• Graghorn

The 1000 year rule of the GreyIron's i kind of question my self, but this is their rule laid out with whats told in the book and no guessing.  The gap between Aubrey Crakehall and Qhorwyn Hoare is questionable too IMO. These 2 vague gaps matter greatly in figuring out when some important people/events line up. Though there may be other info in the books to help narrow these periods. Still working on things to do with mentioned issues with time like Theon Stark, but want to list what i can for every one to scrutinize and or correct.

[AlaskanSandman]

Question as im slowly building this. Any thoughts on the rule of these Riverland houses? Like, did the early kings really rule one after the other? Or were they each rather ruling separate areas of the Riverlands at the same time as each other?

Again, if any one has any thoughts please let me know, errors or extra notes to add, either or let me know. If not, i hope this becomes helpful to other. Im trying not to do any theorizing really. Just constructing whats said in the text and adding in other kingdom's movements in accordance. 

The Teague error is still the only period of undetermined length other than the early Bracken Blackwood periods. The Teague period would help fill in alot of gaps though. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well 1 thing that is minor and not really related to the Riverlands, but I think the scouring of Lorath occurred earlier, wasn't it the andals that did that before they came over?

[AlaskanSandman]

Well 1 thing that is minor and not really related to the Riverlands, but I think the scouring of Lorath occurred earlier, wasn't it the andals that did that before they came over?

Doesnt have to be related just to the Riverlands. Im just using the Riverlands as the back bone of time as more info is given about the Riverland lengths of rule than any where else. Teague's are the main ones we dont know the length of rule.

That being said, topics like when did The Scouring of Lorath happen are exactly what im hoping everyone will jump in and contribute towards.

The scouring of Lorath happened when the Andals led by Qarlon the Great attacked Norvos. Which was already inhabited by Valyrians religious refugees who appealed to the FreeHold for help, so the Valyrians came in a burned Lorath, allegedly killing everyone. Lorath being taken by Valyrians the following century. I place Qarlon in the time of the Rhoynish wars due to the fact that Norvos was colonized by Valyrians already. Valyria seems to have moved into Essos around the time of their conflicts with the Rhoynar. We are clearly told about the first settlement by Valryria in the East and told many accounts from Lorath to Norvos to Pentos to tell us when Valyria was present in Essos. 

Now, you may be right in that it was earlier than 1200ish years ago, i just place it as no later than this point. I welcome any and all thoughts into this and incorporating these other events.

I personally think Ghis was destroyed no more than 1500 years ago my self. One, based on Valyrian expansion and a lack of trust for the current time line and this thousands of years gap with Valyria apparently doing nothing.

Two, off multiple statements by Yandel that shortly after destroying Ghis, Valyria turned her attention east. A thousand years is not shortly, 3000 years even less so.

[AlaskanSandman]

Blackwood- ?

Bracken- ?

Fisher- ?

Mudd- 1000 years

Unknown period of Anarchy from Andal Invasion and extinction of House Mudd.

Justman - 300 years

100 years of Anarchy in Riverlands - 100 years

Teague- ?

Durrandon - 300 years

Hoare - About 100 years

Tully - 300 years - present.

So this is roughly the order of rule of the Riverlands (fist 3 houses disputed by Maesters) simplified. All info in the main post not pertaining to the Riverlands has been put in color and bold text. 

There is 2100 years of accountable history going backwards. So House Teague is the deciding factor to how long ago House Mudd began their rule.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Based on Roland II Arryn, you can figure that Ser Artys Arryn landed in the Vale in the last couple generations of House Mudd's rule of the Riverlands. 

 

This also means House Teague's rule is very important to know. 

Placing Ser Artys Arryn in the end of Mudd rule means we have only 1100 years of accounted history.

It comes down to this, did the Teague's rule for about 900 years, or 4900?

This settles i think the topic of "When did the Andals Arrive" and "When did the Age of Heroes end". Thoughts??

[AlaskanSandman]

Would it be better or easier to read if i gave the time line in the other order, starting at present and working back? I started the list just thinking chronologically but now looking at it, im wondering if people are having a hard time following it. 

[Maester of Valyria]

I personally think Ghis was destroyed no more than 1500 years ago my self. One, based on Valyrian expansion and a lack of trust for the current time line and this thousands of years gap with Valyria apparently doing nothing.

Two, off multiple statements by Yandel that shortly after destroying Ghis, Valyria turned her attention east. A thousand years is not shortly, 3000 years even less so.

First, let me say that I very much enjoyed the timeline, and thank you for taking the time to put it all together. A few things about the above quote:

• Valyria was not 'doing nothing' once they had defeated Old Ghis. They would have been consolidating their vast swathes of new territory and perhaps preparing to expand out further. Another point you should consider is that for much of the Freehold's existence it wasn't very expansionist at all: it seems to have been content with living off its own land while those at the top of society explored the 'higher mysteries'. Perhaps they founded a few of the cities directly on or near the peninsula at this time?
• I think you might mean that Valryia 'turned her attention west', not east. I'd imagine that they did this because that was the location of the nearest other civilisation, the Rhoynish, who probably also represented the only other Ghis-level power that Valyria had contact with at that time. The wars between the Freehold and Valyria were started by Volantis and the other Valyrian colonies in the area, and Valyria joined in as it was obligated to. I imagine that the defeat of the Rhoynish was the turning point where Valyria shifted from a stable, non-expansionist society to an expansionist, conquering one. The (three) thousand years that you mention is likely the period of consolidation detailed above, the period of slow expansion out to the Rhoyne, perhaps a brief flare-up with the Andals before their migration to Westeros, diplomatic relations with the Rhoynish, the founding of Volantis and the other colonies, and finally the breakdown in relations. For a society as stable and forward-thinking as Valyria, it is easy to concieve that this chain of events took place over the time scale that you put forward.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^ I agree.  There was a lot of work to be done.  The Valyrians also took over areas to the east including some of the islands of the Jade sea and the area where Qarth is now.

[The Wondering Wolf]

OP, maybe you are interested in this thread.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Qhored I Hoare is all screwed up in the timeline. He was supposedly a High King who ended the reign of House Justman. But Justman came after the Andal Invasion when there weren't any High Kings elected at the Kingsmoot. Not to mention he supposedly ruled all of Westeros's western shore, which is likely something we'd have heard about. It seems likely that there were several different Qhored Hoares (or perhaps the others were actually members of House Blacktyde and Greyiron) and that they were just conflated into a single individual.

And also, all the major Ironborn houses claim to be descendants of the Grey King. Except for House Goodbrother, who claim to be descendants of the Grey King's loyal elder brother. And Urrathon Badbrother's name was likely just a play on his House name anyway.

[AlaskanSandman]

Qhored I Hoare is all screwed up in the timeline. He was supposedly a High King who ended the reign of House Justman. But Justman came after the Andal Invasion when there weren't any High Kings elected at the Kingsmoot. Not to mention he supposedly ruled all of Westeros's western shore, which is likely something we'd have heard about. It seems likely that there were several different Qhored Hoares (or perhaps the others were actually members of House Blacktyde and Greyiron) and that they were just conflated into a single individual.

And also, all the major Ironborn houses claim to be descendants of the Grey King. Except for House Goodbrother, who claim to be descendants of the Grey King's loyal elder brother. And Urrathon Badbrother's name was likely just a play on his House name anyway

The Justman's (which are made of 2 first men houses) are indeed said to be after the Andal invasion began, still vague though. This could have been immediately after the first ships started to land but before Ser Artys had secured the Vale. Especially since it is possible to sail right past the Vale and directly into the Riverlands. 

 Qhored Hoare is caught in a debate over who was the last High King, him, or Urron GreyIron. Since House Hoare by all intents is described as an Andal house, could not have come before Urron GreyIron. House Hoare extinquished house GreyIron in taking the Kingship. Thus, i place Qhored after Urron. 

I mention in another thread the topic of the Hoare's and their expansion and the curious diss the Drowned Priest though at them. House Hoare brought the Iron Islands to the peak of their power, both under Qhored, and then revived under Harren. They didn't conqueror peacefully either, so what is the problem the drowned priest have with them, other than the obvious Andal taint. 

Which touching upon that. Hoare i said was likely Andal, the reason being is a bit of a guess, but based off other Andals in other areas. House Hoare likely married the daughter of the last GreyIron king, much like Baratheon did with House Durrandon. Yes, i may be wrong, but it's as logical as the alternative if not more. Theories that require that much assumption (possible GreyIron's or Blacktydes calling them selves Hoare for some unlogical reason) i tend to question and lean away from, though thats just me. 

And i know the legend of house Goodbrother to the Grey king. My thinking is that house GreyIron is the direct line from the Grey King (despite claims by others) and that Greyjoy is a later off shoot of house GreyIron. Not fer sure here but im following a specific lead having to do with the Andals and the Ironborn connection and this "Black hair, and eyes" trait that we see in house Hoare, Baratheon, Durrandon, and Greyjoy. To be fair, my above time line countered some of my own theory in that thread. Some. Problem is, in the time theory above, The Grey King and Duran God's Grief may or may not have been at the same time depending upon some things like House Teague's length of rule. I dont wanna go into that in this thread to much though just because im trying to keep as much "theorizing" on my part out of this thread and keep it based on notes from the books as much as possible. Some is need as in the case of settling the High Kings issue of the Ironborn. But those are things im hoping we can all discuss in here and maybe come up with a new time line out of everyone's hashing out things.

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

But the thing is that the Worldbook points out that the Ironborn were at their strongest and most feared really early in history. It says "but after Qhored, a slow decline began. The kings who followed Qhored played a part in that, yet the men of the green lands were likewise growing stronger. The First Men were building longships of their own, their towns defended by stone walls in place of wooden palisades and spiked ditches". The implication being that during Qhored's time the First Men had no ships and palisades were the most common defense. This means it was obviously very early in history, which doesn't match up. So I'm just of the opinion that there were several King Qhored Hoares, and that they were simply conflated together in Ironborn history. I mean, several different real life figures being sort of amalgamated together in legend is something that has happened in history so it's not outside the realm of possibility. I only brought up the possibility of some of them being Blacktydes or Greyirons simply because it's mentioned Qhored the Cruel is sometimes referred to as a Blacktyde or Greyiron, which may have some importance. The problem in trying to come up with a timeline for the Ironborn is that you have a lot of contradictory information given to you on them. Which would make some sense; the Ironborn didn't likely have anyone creating a written record of their history.

Oh, and the problem the Drowned Priests had with the Hoares came from several things. They had a habit of taking Andal wives, trying to bring the Seven to the Ironborn, discouraging reaving, promoting trade, etc. Many of the earlier Hoares were not like Harwyn Hoare and his son and grandson at all.

[AlaskanSandman]

First, let me say that I very much enjoyed the timeline, and thank you for taking the time to put it all together. A few things about the above quote:

• Valyria was not 'doing nothing' once they had defeated Old Ghis. They would have been consolidating their vast swathes of new territory and perhaps preparing to expand out further. Another point you should consider is that for much of the Freehold's existence it wasn't very expansionist at all: it seems to have been content with living off its own land while those at the top of society explored the 'higher mysteries'. Perhaps they founded a few of the cities directly on or near the peninsula at this time?
• I think you might mean that Valryia 'turned her attention west', not east. I'd imagine that they did this because that was the location of the nearest other civilisation, the Rhoynish, who probably also represented the only other Ghis-level power that Valyria had contact with at that time. The wars between the Freehold and Valyria were started by Volantis and the other Valyrian colonies in the area, and Valyria joined in as it was obligated to. I imagine that the defeat of the Rhoynish was the turning point where Valyria shifted from a stable, non-expansionist society to an expansionist, conquering one. The (three) thousand years that you mention is likely the period of consolidation detailed above, the period of slow expansion out to the Rhoyne, perhaps a brief flare-up with the Andals before their migration to Westeros, diplomatic relations with the Rhoynish, the founding of Volantis and the other colonies, and finally the breakdown in relations. For a society as stable and forward-thinking as Valyria, it is easy to concieve that this chain of events took place over the time scale that you put forward.

Thank You!  Really hoping it can become a tool for alot of us, even if that's people copying and pasting it into an Order that they believe. Long as we have more of a back bone of time that we can trust rather than Maester speculation.

• Problem is, we dont actually know all of that, time as we're told is based off the Maesters. That is why the goal of this thread is to use the events of other cultures to help better decide these things. What the Maesters have told us is both a mess, told out of synch, and even questioned among members of their own guild. As any good man of logic, we must deduce for our selves. That being said, 3000 years to consolidate your wealth and territories? At that kind of pace and lack of fast acting decisiveness, Im pretty sure Canada could expands faster. (No offense intended Canadians ) point is, theses time are ridiculously unbelievable by alllllll  arguements. Rome would have put Valyria to shame, badllllyyyyyyy. If the British had been that slow, the Indians might have won and America wouldn't be here. 

OOpss. Yes i did mean West, not East. Thank you. Couple things to consider when dealing with Valyria and it's movements. One, every one else, again is the point of this thread, to not take just one account, but multiple accounts. In this case, one very big culture doesn't line up with Valyria's "history" as told to us by the Maesters. Yi-ti, in fact, what the Maesters tell us about them seems all jacked up too. But with the clues you need at least. Simply put. The long night was 8000 some thing years ago, except the list about the Emperors of Yi-ti dont stretch back that far.     (paste from another thread)     "Grey, Indigo, Jade Green, Scarlet, Pearl white, Sea Green, Yellow, Purple, Maroon, Azure, and Orange. None are missing You can count it as 10 tho for your math since the Orange empire is brand new and contending with the 69th yellow emperor from which the yellow empire ended 1000 years ago and the 17th azure and current emperor. The Eunuchs only ruled for 130 years . Now if all 10 empires ruled for 700 years then you might be able to reach the commonly excepted date for the Long Night. Except we know that only one lasted 700 years while some (meaning at least two) were no more than 50 years. With the Pearl White only 130 years long. At least 2 in between at around 350 years. plus 4 interim periods, the longest lasting only 100 years. The best you can come up with for them extending the dates is roughly 4000 years, and thats grasping in my opinion. The info and math just doesnt support there empire being 6000 plus years long by a long shot."

So since the Golden Empire of Yi-ti isn't that long, and as i point out in the time thread above about the Andals invading around 2000 years ago. You have multiple accounts of things in history happening much more recently and more compressed in the time line.

This goes back again to what i mention about Yandel stating many times that "shortly" after destroying Ghis, Valyria turned her attention West. 3000 years is only short if your immortal. For the rest of us, thats foreverrrrrr.  

Again i stress that 3000 years is far from conceivable. China was only able to achieve the longest House rule through isolation from the rest of the world. Once the rest of the world found them, they fell like every nation falls. Even Egypt didnt have 5000 years or even close to that of one long running empire. It was multiple kingdoms that rose and fell and changed. Again, at 3000 years to consolidate an area not much bigger than North America, that's just pathetically slow. I have a hard time rationalizing this aspect alone, not to mention the other facts that seem to contradict what we've been told.

[AlaskanSandman]

OP, maybe you are interested in this thread.

I am  gonna take me a little time to get to it tho, bear with me haha, Lots to do and read and type and so on and the real world keeps calling too  peeked already though

 

[AlaskanSandman]

But the thing is that the Worldbook points out that the Ironborn were at their strongest and most feared really early in history. It says "but after Qhored, a slow decline began. The kings who followed Qhored played a part in that, yet the men of the green lands were likewise growing stronger. The First Men were building longships of their own, their towns defended by stone walls in place of wooden palisades and spiked ditches". The implication being that during Qhored's time the First Men had no ships and palisades were the most common defense. This means it was obviously very early in history, which doesn't match up. So I'm just of the opinion that there were several King Qhored Hoares, and that they were simply conflated together in Ironborn history. I mean, several different real life figures being sort of amalgamated together in legend is something that has happened in history so it's not outside the realm of possibility. I only brought up the possibility of some of them being Blacktydes or Greyirons simply because it's mentioned Qhored the Cruel is sometimes referred to as a Blacktyde or Greyiron, which may have some importance. The problem in trying to come up with a timeline for the Ironborn is that you have a lot of contradictory information given to you on them. Which would make some sense; the Ironborn didn't likely have anyone creating a written record of their history.

Oh, and the problem the Drowned Priests had with the Hoares came from several things. They had a habit of taking Andal wives, trying to bring the Seven to the Ironborn, discouraging reaving, promoting trade, etc. Many of the earlier Hoares were not like Harwyn Hoare and his son and grandson at all.

But the world book also tells us that the Andals invaded 2000, 4000, and 6000 years ago. I understand the world book says a great many things, true and likely false. That same book also states that House Hoare made an alliance with the other houses to bring down House GreyIron. And that the last king chosen was either Qhored or Urron. Yes, i get there are contradictions. But each one cant be true. one has to be right. And yes, everyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy thing you mentioned is in TWOIAF under the Ironborn section, that's the problem though. Your not using any other sources of information in your statement to help prove anything more than what the Maesters have already said. Give me some thing credible from the books pinning down these things based on accounts out of Old Town, or the Westerlands, or the North. Or something. This is also a problem in my thread though too as everything in black is from/about the Riverlands. Yet how do i/we know for fact that House Mudd ruled for 1000 years? These are the very things im hoping in this thread that we can cross reference to develop a new time line. If you believe the time line the Maesters put forth, then you wont agree with much on here. (totally not trying to sound rude or off putting, hard to tell in writing. Just trying to elaborate a problem in settling the time issue, all of us going off single accounts from the Maesters with no other textual facts or research of our own to counter them.  )

That being said, on here, if you follow the lengths of rule and people under the Riverlands, it clearly shows when Ser Artys Arryn took over the Vale. This means as i said, that House Teague has to rule for a min of like 900 years to make the Andal Invasion 2000ish years ago. But if the time line you believe of the Andals coming 6000 years ago, would mean that the Teagues would have to rule for over 4000 years. Making them the oldest ruling house in the Riverlands, though the text makes their length of reign seem short based on the lack of information given and the information given states massive rebellions and destabilization. Saddle sore had to ride around his whole reign trying to squash rebellions. Not the best of basis for a long lasting rule. That and the list of ruling kings in the Vale does't seem to support House Teague ruling for 4000 plus years. Again i assert the strong implication through textual facts that the Andals only came about 2000 years ago. 

This would prove a very important issue about time. The Maesters are either clearly lying, or clearly stupid.

As i mention in an above response, topics like Yi-ti help back up my assertion about time and when the Andals arrived. Not just because the Maesters say it was 6000 years ago and i should just believe that, but because the notes and math prove other wise. 

Make a list of all the ruling kings for each kingdom of Westeros and compare accounts from each. That's what i did. Its slow as shit, but you'll find alot more this way than just reading the book front to back with our actively reading. It's from these list of kings and notes that this thread was built and still added to. Im still comparing accounts of the Lannisters and Gardeners and Starks to see where and how these events were told select info about fits together. 

Yes you are right that in and of it self, with no other facts added in, yes Qhored could have been multiple men attributed to one man. Though that's already what were being told happened with Duran and Brandon Stark etc during the Age of Heroes (thousands of years earlier according to Yandel), so i highly doubt on that premise alone that it's happening again much later in time to some one else. Again, there is also the many points i make above about the more probable (and less dependent on whimsical factors) likely hood of Hoare being an Andal King who had sided with the Ironborn to over throw House GreyIron and taking a GreyIron daughter to wife as we already have textual evidence of such things happening else where. I get what your saying about the Blacktyde/GreyIron part though. The only problem i have with this is, why call him Hoare latere? Specially if the Hoares were so hated as the Drowned priest claim. And yessss lol i know the generally listed reasons the Drowned priest claim the Hoares sucked, but i still dont believe it. Qhored Hoare promoted peace and trade? Harrag Hoare, and Harren Hoare? Halleck and Harwyn? These do not sound like men who got their new domains by peaceful trade but with the edge of a sword. Through serious Ironborn ass whoopin. I just feel there is something deeper their going on. Why not talk shit about the GreyIron's? They robbed the Drowned priest of their power to choose kings, not House Hoare.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

^ I agree.  There was a lot of work to be done.  The Valyrians also took over areas to the east including some of the islands of the Jade sea and the area where Qarth is now.

3000 years though just seems way to long as i mention above. America would be a different place if it had taken that long to consolidate the new holdings.

[TheSovereignGrave]

But the world book also tells us that the Andals invaded 2000, 4000, and 6000 years ago. I understand the world book says a great many things, true and likely false. That same book also states that House Hoare made an alliance with the other houses to bring down House GreyIron. And that the last king chosen was either Qhored or Urron. Yes, i get there are contradictions. But each one cant be true. one has to be right. And yes, everyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy thing you mentioned is in TWOIAF under the Ironborn section, that's the problem though. Your not using any other sources of information in your statement to help prove anything more than what the Maesters have already said. Give me some thing credible from the books pinning down these things based on accounts out of Old Town, or the Westerlands, or the North. Or something. This is also a problem in my thread though too as everything in black is from/about the Riverlands. Yet how do i/we know for fact that House Mudd ruled for 1000 years? These are the very things im hoping in this thread that we can cross reference to develop a new time line. If you believe the time line the Maesters put forth, then you wont agree with much on here. (totally not trying to sound rude or off putting, hard to tell in writing. Just trying to elaborate a problem in settling the time issue, all of us going off single accounts from the Maesters with no other textual facts or research of our own to counter them.  )

That being said, on here, if you follow the lengths of rule and people under the Riverlands, it clearly shows when Ser Artys Arryn took over the Vale. This means as i said, that House Teague has to rule for a min of like 900 years to make the Andal Invasion 2000ish years ago. But if the time line you believe of the Andals coming 6000 years ago, would mean that the Teagues would have to rule for over 4000 years. Making them the oldest ruling house in the Riverlands, though the text makes their length of reign seem short based on the lack of information given and the information given states massive rebellions and destabilization. Saddle sore had to ride around his whole reign trying to squash rebellions. Not the best of basis for a long lasting rule. That and the list of ruling kings in the Vale does't seem to support House Teague ruling for 4000 plus years. Again i assert the strong implication through textual facts that the Andals only came about 2000 years ago. 

This would prove a very important issue about time. The Maesters are either clearly lying, or clearly stupid.

As i mention in an above response, topics like Yi-ti help back up my assertion about time and when the Andals arrived. Not just because the Maesters say it was 6000 years ago and i should just believe that, but because the notes and math prove other wise. 

Make a list of all the ruling kings for each kingdom of Westeros and compare accounts from each. That's what i did. Its slow as shit, but you'll find alot more this way than just reading the book front to back with our actively reading. It's from these list of kings and notes that this thread was built and still added to. Im still comparing accounts of the Lannisters and Gardeners and Starks to see where and how these events were told select info about fits together. 

Yes you are right that in and of it self, with no other facts added in, yes Qhored could have been multiple men attributed to one man. Though that's already what were being told happened with Duran and Brandon Stark etc during the Age of Heroes (thousands of years earlier according to Yandel), so i highly doubt on that premise alone that it's happening again much later in time to some one else. Again, there is also the many points i make above about the more probable (and less dependent on whimsical factors) likely hood of Hoare being an Andal King who had sided with the Ironborn to over throw House GreyIron and taking a GreyIron daughter to wife as we already have textual evidence of such things happening else where. I get what your saying about the Blacktyde/GreyIron part though. The only problem i have with this is, why call him Hoare latere? Specially if the Hoares were so hated as the Drowned priest claim. And yessss lol i know the generally listed reasons the Drowned priest claim the Hoares sucked, but i still dont believe it. Qhored Hoare promoted peace and trade? Harrag Hoare, and Harren Hoare? Halleck and Harwyn? These do not sound like men who got their new domains by peaceful trade but with the edge of a sword. Through serious Ironborn ass whoopin. I just feel there is something deeper their going on. Why not talk shit about the GreyIron's? They robbed the Drowned priest of their power to choose kings, not House Hoare.

 

I never said I agreed with the Andals invading 6,000 years ago, so I'm not sure where I'm getting that. And alright I get what you're saying about other sections, here's something else to prove my point: in the Reach section it says that in the same century Oldtown was sacked by Qhored the Cruel, Gyles the Woe, Samwell the Starfire. Now, Gyles the Woe was a King of the Reach. But by the time of the Andal Invasion Oldtown had already been subsumed into the Kingdom of the Reach. So how could it have been sacked by a King of the Reach and the same Qhored who put an end to House Justman, which didn't exist until after the Andal Invasion? And I think it would be more of the Hoares sort of "stealing" the accomplishments of Blacktyde and Greyiron Qhoreds and it just getting it all confused. After all, the Ironborn didn't have the maesters or anyone like that to write down their history. And you're putting too much stock in a few of the Hoare Kings. You're forgetting the like of Harmund I Hoare (welcomed travelers and merchants to the Isles in addition to protecting septas and septons), Harmund II Hoare (spent his childhood at Casterly Rock and married a Lannister princess, visited the Reach to discuss trade, and believed the Drowned God was an aspect of the Stranger), Harmund III Hoare (raised in the Faith, actually outlawed reaving and salt wives, and opposed thralldom), Wulfgar Hoare (allowed a sept to be built on Great Wyk), and Horgan Hoare (allowed a sept to be built on Old Wyk, and slaughtered the Drowned Men who rose in rebellion because of that).

[AlaskanSandman]

I never said I agreed with the Andals invading 6,000 years ago, so I'm not sure where I'm getting that. And alright I get what you're saying about other sections, here's something else to prove my point: in the Reach section it says that in the same century Oldtown was sacked by Qhored the Cruel, Gyles the Woe, Samwell the Starfire. Now, Gyles the Woe was a King of the Reach. But by the time of the Andal Invasion Oldtown had already been subsumed into the Kingdom of the Reach. So how could it have been sacked by a King of the Reach and the same Qhored who put an end to House Justman, which didn't exist until after the Andal Invasion? And I think it would be more of the Hoares sort of "stealing" the accomplishments of Blacktyde and Greyiron Qhoreds and it just getting it all confused. After all, the Ironborn didn't have the maesters or anyone like that to write down their history. And you're putting too much stock in a few of the Hoare Kings. You're forgetting the like of Harmund I Hoare (welcomed travelers and merchants to the Isles in addition to protecting septas and septons), Harmund II Hoare (spent his childhood at Casterly Rock and married a Lannister princess, visited the Reach to discuss trade, and believed the Drowned God was an aspect of the Stranger), Harmund III Hoare (raised in the Faith, actually outlawed reaving and salt wives, and opposed thralldom), Wulfgar Hoare (allowed a sept to be built on Great Wyk), and Horgan Hoare (allowed a sept to be built on Old Wyk, and slaughtered the Drowned Men who rose in rebellion because of that).

Ummm, i might have assumed based on your post, my bad  

Firstly, yes and thank you for cross references as i believe that's the only way we're really gonna figure this stuff out   So bring any and all

Now, good point, but this would also seem to depend on when you believe the Andals Invaded, how, and where. 

I dont prescribe to the idea that the Andals only landed first at the Vale, made camp, and then spread out from their. In fact the text mentions boats landing in the North and further south. I believe many of these were happening at the same time as the other. 

So, that being said. Ships could easily sail up river and strike further inland past the coastal territories. Meaning, the riverlands can be attacked before ever having made any camp or landing in the Vale. This kind of Viking like attack pattern would explain certain inconsistencies with the Andal stories of their invasion. Not to say this logic is right over yours or others though. Just presenting it as an alternative to help unify these contradicting stories. 

Now as far as Qhored, hmm. Didnt quite consider it like that , and that is an interesting thought. To think it was (one man for now) who was either a Blacktyde or a GreyIron and never actually a Hoare, and that the Hoares later tried slapping their name to him. This is interesting and ill have to think a little more on some of this, but like i said, how the Andals invasion took place.

If the Andals had made it into the Riverlands but not as far south as Old Town in that century, wouldn't that explain it away? Old town still not having united with the Reach then untill after this said century when the Andals had solidified their holdings on the Western coast more such as the Vale?

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

If the Andals had made it into the Riverlands but not as far south as Old Town in that century, wouldn't that explain it away? Old town still not having united with the Reach then untill after this said century when the Andals had solidified their holdings on the Western coast more such as the Vale?

 

That wouldn't explain anything. House Justman was founded after the Andal Invasion, and then ruled for around 300 years. But the man who supposedly ended the House (Qhored the Cruel) also supposedly sacked Oldtown in the same century that Oldtown was sacked (but not conquered) by King Gyles I of the Reach meaning that Oldtown was obviously an independent Kingdom at this time. Even if the Andals hit the Riverlands around the same time as the Vale, you're still looking at a massive gap as the Hightowers were already vassals of the Gardeners at the time of the Andal Invasion.