Why was it so hard to find a bride in free cities for rhaegar?

[purple-eyes]

Steffon was sent for around one year in Volantis. 

I think it is likely that Tywin was sent to Lys for this purpose too. Lys is famous for the old valyria blood. 

Remember that Aerys was planning to declare Tywin treason if Steffon can find a bride for rhaegar?

Of course Tywin may not try hard since he wanted to marry Cersei to Rhaegar (maybe this is the reason Aerys feel suspicious too)

But how about Steffon?

And also I read the portion about black wall in volantis, it seems like there are a lot of people who have old valyria blood and live inside the black wall. 

And Oberyn managed to sleep with one highly noble woman of Volantis and got a bastard daughter from her. 

"Nymera was born from the noblest blood of old Valyria"

How come they failed to do this for Rhaegar?

Did Oberyn just deflower the last noblest maiden in Volantis so rhaegar had no bride to take?

 

 

[WolfgangII]

 

And Oberyn managed to sleep with one highly noble woman of Volantis and got a bastard daughter from her. 

 

Did Oberyn just deflower the last noblest maiden in Volantis so rhaegar had no bride to take?

 

 

This would be the ultimate plot twist, Oberyn's wanton-ness would lead to Rhaegar having to marry Elia, which would lead to Elia being hurt because she was Rhaegar's wife and mother to their children, which  would lead to Oberyn seeking revenge for Elia, which would lead to Oberyn death. Oberyn sealed his fate because he couldn't keep the snake in his pants. The snake bite his own tail.

 

(Now, seriously, I don't think Steffon did a very good job searching or maybe he had such high standards. Afterall, he is looking for his next-to-be queen. If Stannis learned his people skill from his father, I imagine Steffon rejecting every possible bride).

 

Back to crackpot, what if Steffon was in liege with Tywin, which he befriended in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, to said to Aerys, "I found no bride, you shoul marry Rhaegar to Cersei". Maybe they arranged that the son of Cersei/Rhagear (prince)  will be married to the Robert's daughter.

[Lord Varys]

The best guess is that the Old Blood of Volantis - or at least those noble families who had daughters in the right age with an adequate ancestry - had no inclination whatsoever to ship off one of their daughters to distant (and barbaric) Westeros as bride to the son of a man who is known as the Mad King.

After the death of the dragons the Targaryens no longer outranked or even rivaled the Volantene nobility in their mind, presumably. The Old Blood rules in unbroken lineage the eldest daughter of ancient Valyria whereas the Targaryens are just second or third class dragonlords whose dragons are now gone just as those of the dragonlord kin and cousins of Volantene nobility. Westeros is just a savage and backwater place in the eye of any refined nobleman from any of the Free Cities.

Tywin most likely never was in Lys for a bride search. If Aerys wanted to search for a bride for Rhaegar in Lys Steffon would have looked there. And if Tywin had been in Lys for that reason he would have continued to Volantis to look for a bride there if he didn't find any in Lys. But Aerys would never have entrusted Tywin with such a task. Especially not after the whole Cersei-Rhaegar debacle. The idea to entrust the search for a bride the very man who wants to marry his daughter to your heir makes no sense, and prior to Tywin's suggestion of Cersei as bride for Rhaegar Aerys doesn't seem to have thought about brides for Rhaegar, presumably hoping against hope that Rhaella would give birth to a daughter who could be married to Rhaegar or perhaps hoping that Cassana Estermont would give birth to a daughter Rhaegar could be betrothed to.

I do not know why the Lysene nobility didn't catch Aerys' interest, but it may be that those Lyseni with an impeccable bloodline going back to a Valyrian dragonlord house might have been quite rare. Not the descendants and the Valyrian blood in general sense, but those bloodlines which could still be considered royalty. There is more to royalty than just the bloodline and the ancestry. You also have to have a good reputation - for instance, the notoriety of the Saans as a pirate house would most likely prevent a daughter from that house from becoming a queen. The Rogares no longer seem to be around (or in power) and neither is that old house from which Serenei of Lys comes from (unless she wasn't the last Rogare and the mother of Larra and subsequently the grandmother of Aegon IV himself - which would be a very funny thing).

[purple-eyes]

The best guess is that the Old Blood of Volantis - or at least those noble families who had daughters in the right age with an adequate ancestry - had no inclination whatsoever to ship off one of their daughters to distant (and barbaric) Westeros as bride to the son of a man who is known as the Mad King.

After the death of the dragons the Targaryens no longer outranked or even rivaled the Volantene nobility in their mind, presumably. The Old Blood rules in unbroken lineage the eldest daughter of ancient Valyria whereas the Targaryens are just second or third class dragonlords whose dragons are now gone just as those of the dragonlord kin and cousins of Valyrian nobility. Westeros is just a savage and backwater place in the eye of any refined nobleman from any of the Free Cities.

Tywin most likely never was in Lys for a bride search. If Aerys wanted to search for a bride for Rhaegar in Lys Steffon would have looked there. And if Tywin had been in Lys for that reason he would have continued to Volantis to look for a bride there if he didn't find any in Lys. But Aerys would never have entrusted Tywin with such a task. Especially not after the whole Cersei-Rhaegar debacle. The idea to entrust the search for a bride the very man who wants to marry his daughter to your heir makes no sense, and prior to Tywin's suggestion of Cersei as bride for Rhaegar Aerys doesn't seem to have thought about brides for Rhaegar, presumably hoping against hope that Rhaella would give birth to a daughter who could be married to Rhaegar or perhaps hoping that Cassana Estermont would give birth to a daughter Rhaegar could be betrothed to.

I do not know why the Lysene nobility didn't catch Aerys' interest, but it may be that those Lyseni with an impeccable bloodline going back to a Valyrian dragonlord house might have been quite rare. Not the descendants and the Valyrian blood in general sense, but those bloodlines which could still be considered royalty. There is more to royalty than just the bloodline and the ancestry. You also have to have a good reputation - for instance, the notoriety of the Saans as a pirate house would most likely prevent a daughter from that house from becoming a queen. The Rogares no longer seem to be around (or in power) and neither is that old house from which Serenei of Lys comes from (unless she wasn't the last Rogare and the mother of Larra and subsequently the grandmother of Aegon IV himself - which would be a very funny thing).

No matter how Targ lost their dragons, that is still future queen for 7 kingdoms. 

I would say Volantis family should be willing to marry their daughters to Rhaegar. 

They are even willing to marry Larra to a kidnapped second son Viserys. 

And nobody knows Viserys can become king some day. 

Rhaegar is way better than Viserys, he is future king. 

Not to mention daughter (possibly) of Archon of tyrosh even marred a dragonless bastard!

 

[Walda]

I agree with Lord Varys.

What would tempt the noble blood of Old Valyria to make the acquaintance of a merely Andal lord? Probably not the knowledge that he was intending to marry their daughters off to the blood of a crazy king of a barbaric land. No doubt there were plenty of fallen houses and merchant houses in the free cities that would sell their daughters for wealth or rank that they already had.

Although, it makes sense to me that Aerys would give his Hand the task of finding him a suitable bride for Rhaegar, after explaining to Tywin that his son can't marry the daughter of his servant. Of course, to humiliate Tywin, and to accuse him of failing him when he fails to find a bride, or finds one Aerys doesn't like. Lys would be the perfect place to do this, as no matter how noble or impeccable the girl's bloodline, she could always be suspected to have been a Lysene whore. 

What Aerys couldn't have done was incense all the people of one of his seven kingdoms with his nasty innuendos at the expense of the Crown Prince's wife, the way he did with his treatment of Elia Martell and her children. Although, on the other hand, he might have been able to provoke another Blackfyre rebellion if Rhaegar's wife had come from the free cities.

[purple-eyes]

This would be the ultimate plot twist, Oberyn's wanton-ness would lead to Rhaegar having to marry Elia, which would lead to Elia being hurt because she was Rhaegar's wife and mother to their children, which  would lead to Oberyn seeking revenge for Elia, which would lead to Oberyn death. Oberyn sealed his fate because he couldn't keep the snake in his pants. The snake bite his own tail.

 

(Now, seriously, I don't think Steffon did a very good job searching or maybe he had such high standards. Afterall, he is looking for his next-to-be queen. If Stannis learned his people skill from his father, I imagine Steffon rejecting every possible bride).

 

Back to crackpot, what if Steffon was in liege with Tywin, which he befriended in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, to said to Aerys, "I found no bride, you shoul marry Rhaegar to Cersei". Maybe they arranged that the son of Cersei/Rhagear (prince)  will be married to the Robert's daughter.

I also feel it is a big twist. 

I even compared the age of Nymeria. 

She was born in 274, 275 something. So her mom is likely in a young age at this time. maybe 15, 16? 

And Rhaegar was also 15, 16 years old at this time.

So it is a pretty good match.

Ah, Oberyn should really watch himself. He ruined that girl, then his sister had to marry Rhaegar. 

If Rhaegar managed to marry a noble girl from Volantis, then everybody is happy. 

Elia can happily marry Baelor Hightower, who seems to be a much better husband than rhaegar. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Well, we don't know when exactly Larra was married to Viserys, do we? But one assumes that part of that reason clearly was the ambition of the House Rogare to control the Heir Presumptive of Aegon III Targaryen. Back in the day the Targaryens still had dragons, too.

But Lys and later Tyrosh are in a different league than Volantis. Volantis is the oldest and largest Free City, and despite the fact that the Targaryens controlled a huge continent, they were living in castles, riding in tourneys, and ruling as feudal overlords. In comparison to the Volantene society that really looks like a joke. Becoming the wife of the future King of Westeros should have been as attractive a prospect for a daughter of the Old Blood as the idea of marrying the King of England would have been for a Byzantine princess.

In Tywin's case we just don't know why he was in Lys. Could have been anything, really. Trade stuff, contracts, loans, etc. The Hand of the King has a lot to do, and one assumes that many a king (or at least his top minister) visited the Free Cities for various reasons throughout the Targaryen reign. After all, if they didn't have any diplomatic contacts on the topmost level the idea that there were never any conflicts or major wars between Essos and Westeros is flat-out ridiculous.

[Lord Wraith]

Steffon was sent for around one year in Volantis. 

I think it is likely that Tywin was sent to Lys for this purpose too. Lys is famous for the old valyria blood. 

Remember that Aerys was planning to declare Tywin treason if Steffon can find a bride for rhaegar?

Of course Tywin may not try hard since he wanted to marry Cersei to Rhaegar (maybe this is the reason Aerys feel suspicious too)

But how about Steffon?

And also I read the portion about black wall in volantis, it seems like there are a lot of people who have old valyria blood and live inside the black wall. 

And Oberyn managed to sleep with one highly noble woman of Volantis and got a bastard daughter from her. 

"Nymera was born from the noblest blood of old Valyria"

How come they failed to do this for Rhaegar?

Did Oberyn just deflower the last noblest maiden in Volantis so rhaegar had no bride to take?

Steffon probably can't get into the Black Walls considering he is an outsider and a foreigner.

Across the wide blue expanse of the Rhoyne, he could see the Black Wall that had been raised by the Valyrians when Volantis was no more than an outpost of their empire: a great oval of fused stone two hundred feet high and so thick that six four-horse chariots could race around its top abreast, as they did each year to celebrate the founding of the city. Outlanders, foreigners, and freedmen were not allowed inside the Black Wall save at the invitation of those who dwelt within, scions of the Old Blood who could trace their ancestry back to Valyria itself.

The bit about Oberyn is hilarious. 

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

Plot device.  Blame it on George.  There's really no good explanation for it.  Surely there would have many lining up to marry the Prince of Dragonstone.  There was more to Steffon's instructions from his king than "Steve, find a bride for my son.  Any rich girl would do."  Aerys was looking for someone with Targaryen blood.  To be more specific, with the right ancestry.  There were two women in Westeros:  Ashara Dayne and Elia Martell.  I have to wonder why Ashara was passed over.  That was before her soiling by that awful Brandon. 

[purple-eyes]

Steffon probably can't get into the Black Walls considering he is an outsider and a foreigner.

The bit about Oberyn is hilarious. 

 

I think he can be invited. 

Well, we don't know when exactly Larra was married to Viserys, do we? But one assumes that part of that reason clearly was the ambition of the House Rogare to control the Heir Presumptive of Aegon III Targaryen. Back in the day the Targaryens still had dragons, too.

But Lys and later Tyrosh are in a different league than Volantis. Volantis is the oldest and largest Free City, and despite the fact that the Targaryens controlled a huge continent, they were living in castles, riding in tourneys, and ruling as feudal overlords. In comparison to the Volantene society that really looks like a joke. Becoming the wife of the future King of Westeros should have been as attractive a prospect for a daughter of the Old Blood as the idea of marrying the King of England would have been for a Byzantine princess.

In Tywin's case we just don't know why he was in Lys. Could have been anything, really. Trade stuff, contracts, loans, etc. The Hand of the King has a lot to do, and one assumes that many a king (or at least his top minister) visited the Free Cities for various reasons throughout the Targaryen reign. After all, if they didn't have any diplomatic contacts on the topmost level the idea that there were never any conflicts or major wars between Essos and Westeros is flat-out ridiculous.

I kind of remembered that he was married before he was taken back by Aryn. 

At that moment, Aegon III may already had son?

Aegon is young and he had wife, it is hard to put money on that he will eventually have Viserys as heir. 

I think for House rogare, a prince is good enough for them to marry off their daughter. 

And noble woman of volantis is not princess. 

Volantis is ruled by three people by some elections. And had some fixed terms. 

So their daughters can hardly count as princess. Just regular noble women. 

Maybe steffon is out of luck that no daughter was available at that moment with a proper age, or maybe it is Oberyn's fault. 

He ruined the last proper maid so rhaegar can not marry a ruined girl as princess. 

 

[Lord Wraith]

I think he can be invited. 

 

Oh he probably could but people can't just waltz on in. To be fair we have no idea what the Old Blood of Volantis would have thought of this Westeros Lord. Or their thoughts on the mad king. There are any number of reasons why it didn't work.

[purple-eyes]

Oh he probably could but people can't just waltz on in. To be fair we have no idea what the Old Blood of Volantis would have thought of this Westeros Lord. Or their thoughts on the mad king. There are any number of reasons why it didn't work.

maybe they feel suspicious that Steffon is a liar and smuggler!

But anyway, I think Steffon with his wife and his hundreds of servants, should be able to meet with those noble people on this topic. 

After all, people in Volantis knew about house targaryen. 

 

 

[SpecialNedStark]

Eventually we'll get the key details missing in our knowledge of RR. There are so many gaping holes in what we know and the answers to those mysteries are essential to the current state of affairs. I suspect the failed search is one of the crucial missing pieces and if so then we'll def get an answer... Just not till 2032 when DoS finally gets published.

[Targaryen Restoration]

Eventually we'll get the key details missing in our knowledge of RR. There are so many gaping holes in what we know and the answers to those mysteries are essential to the current state of affairs. I suspect the failed search is one of the crucial missing pieces and if so then we'll def get an answer... Just not till 2032 when DoS finally gets published.

Just because we have little information doesn't mean they did too.  Rumors and gossip.  Let us say, the Targaryens had been planning to bring back the dragons.  Perhaps the noble families of the bride-to-be might hesitate knowing their daughter will end up as Rhaegar's sacrificial lamb.  Rhaegar thought he was the TPTWP and Azor Ahai.  The myth about AA sticking his sword in his beloved's chest is known throughout Essos.  It would really perk up my interest if we later find out that Rhaegar originally meant to sacrifice Lyanna.

[purple-eyes]

Just because we have little information doesn't mean they did too.  Rumors and gossip.  Let us say, the Targaryens had been planning to bring back the dragons.  Perhaps the noble families of the bride-to-be might hesitate knowing their daughter will end up as Rhaegar's sacrificial lamb.  Rhaegar thought he was the TPTWP and Azor Ahai.  The myth about AA sticking his sword in his beloved's chest is known throughout Essos.  It would really perk up my interest if we later find out that Rhaegar originally meant to sacrifice Lyanna.

But Rhaegar did not love his wife (no matter who is his wife except Lyanna), so his wife is pretty safe from being sacrificed for activating sword. The sword has to be stabbed into his beloved one. And we know Rhaegar never loved his wife. 

Although his wife will always be abandoned by him for Lyanna. This is a risk for sure. 

 

[joluoto2]

We need to know more details about Aerys' ambitions when it came to Rhaegar's bride. Because it's an interesting topic. My guess is Aerys wanted to find a bride of Targaryen blood and sent Steffon to locate one in Essos (there are after all several Targaryens that have left offspring in Essos). Which leads into the marriage with Elia, Martells have Targaryen blood and thus became Aerys' best option once Steffon's expedition met it's end.

[Ser Lepus]

Most "nobility" in the Free Cities probably are just very rich merchants. That wouldn't cut it for Aerys. He would want somebody of old Valyrian blood, who looked the part, AND belonged to a very rich and powerful family that was part of the ruling elite.

So maybe Steffon found some old empoverished pure-blooded Valyrian noble family with an unmarried daughter in Lys, but those wouldn't have the required political relevance. And he surely met the merchant princes and magisters who rule Lys, but they were all sons and grandsons of moneylenders, merchants, sailors and the like, and they were born from slave concubines, which ruled out their daughters as proper brides for Rhaegar.

The same could happen in Volantis. There probably were a handful of maids whose parents were old blood members of the Tiger faction, but their fathers weren't rich and popular enough to get elected as Triarchs, and in consequence lacked enough power to be meaningful political alliances.

Heck, even if Steffon found a girl who was of the purest noble Valyrian blood and daughter of a magister or merchant prince, she wouldn't fit Aerys's requirements unless her father was the ruler of their city and expected to rule for a time afterwards.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

purple-eyes,

Viserys seems to have been married to Larra Rogare prior to his return to Westeros, yes, but the Rogares would only have married the boy to Larra after they had decided to eventually return and not murder the boy. And Viserys and Viserys children were Aegon's immediate heirs for a very long time - Viserys returned shortly after the death of Queen Jaehaera and had children of his own long before Aegon III even shared the bed of his second wife, Daenaera Velaryon.

How the nobility of Volantis was seen rank-wise isn't clear, either. Perhaps Aerys had very specific criteria for a bride for Rhaegar, but my assumption is that the Old Blood had its own criteria for marriages of their own children, and may not have given a fig about the fact that those Targaryen in distant Westeros called themselves kings, sat on a throne, and were descended from a secondary or tertiary dragonlord lineage. Unless the Volantene nobility got something really big in return for shipping off a daughter of theirs in a barbaric land at the very end of the world this might have been a completely ridiculous prospect for them. And it doesn't seem as if Aerys had anything the Volantenes could really want around the time he was looking for a bride for Rhaegar.

As to looking for a bride of Targaryen descent in Volantis:

This doesn't make any sense, either. The only Targaryen ever living in Volantis to our knowledge is Princess Saera - and she owned a brothel there. Not to mention that we don't even know whether she had any children of her own. But those most certainly would never have married a member of the Old Blood.

[Hohenturm]

: )

[Rippounet]

We need to know more details about Aerys' ambitions when it came to Rhaegar's bride. Because it's an interesting topic. My guess is Aerys wanted to find a bride of Targaryen blood and sent Steffon to locate one in Essos (there are after all several Targaryens that have left offspring in Essos). Which leads into the marriage with Elia, Martells have Targaryen blood and thus became Aerys' best option once Steffon's expedition met it's end.

Something like this.

Lately I've read many theories stating that some well-informed people in Westeros/Essos look for very special women with very special attributes. My guess is that Aerys (or someone else) wanted someone very very special for Rhaegar...