The Maiden Bringing Light

[darthtyrion]

First thread/post, go easy on me. Might not be original but then again what the heck is?
Caught this on a re-read today, Brienne, AFFC:

"Every place has it's local heroes. Where I come from, the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight."
"Ser Gallawho of What?" He Snorted. "Never heard o' him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"
"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor* that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid** it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheath her***. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man****, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

*A champion of such valor - like reborn Jaime, who's selfless deeds saved thousands in King's Landing, currently peacefully ending the war of the five kings...
**Just Maid sounds synonymic to Oathkeeper.
***Lightbringer was forged at the third time of asking.
****If the stories are to be believed then Azor Ahai used Lightbringer as a weapon against the Others to end the Long Night.

It's worth pointing out that just after this:
Brienne hears the whispers 'I should've used the sword, I should've used the magic sword' (i.e. the Just Maid) and tells Pod to bring her Oathkeeper.
It's mentioned Ser Galladon once used the sword to slay a dragon.
Brienne thinks of herself as a maiden and that she has to be mistrustful or she won't stay a maiden for long. Nimble Dick also sings the Bear and the Maiden Fair.
Brienne thinks of Jaime.

I'm a fan of the multiple lightbringer, and judging from what i've seen in other theories I think Jaime will kill Brienne with Oathkeeper or vice versa, and also I think Jon will kill Daenerys and take Drogon - which fits in neatly with all of this.
 

[RobOsevens]

Maybe I'm missing something here but how does Jaime or Brienne killing one another equate to Lightbringer? 

By multiple lightbringer you mean different magical weapons that someone gets after killing a loved one?

Cause I could see Jon killing Dany to get control of Drogon for duty but not for love

 

[John Suburbs]

Or maybe it will be Brienne doing the killing, infusing OathKeeper with Jaime's valor.

 

ed. sorry, didn't see the vice versa

 

[RobOsevens]

And then Jaime or Brienne becomes the hero?

[darthtyrion]

Maybe I'm missing something here but how does Jaime or Brienne killing one another equate to Lightbringer? 

By multiple lightbringer you mean different magical weapons that someone gets after killing a loved one?

Cause I could see Jon killing Dany to get control of Drogon for duty but not for love

 

Lightbringer was forged when Azor Ahai tempered it in water, through a lion, then through the heart of his lover Nissa Nissa.
In this case Lightbringer is the sword Ice reforged as Oathkeeper tempered through the heart of the lovers Jaime or Brienne.
In Jon's case Lightbringer would be Drogon as he slays a dragon (Dany), where Drogon is the enchanted 'sword' given through love.

[RobOsevens]

I get that but I mean if Jaime kills Brienne then he has a magical sword to fight the others with?

[rhaenys666]

None of the things.....

I dont really get the connection at all and seems to be a bit of a stretch. Jamie or brienne ? Jon or dany ? You kind of have to pick one.

[RobOsevens]

None of the things.....

I dont really get the connection at all and seems to be a bit of a stretch. Jamie or brienne ? Jon or dany ? You kind of have to pick one.

I agree.

The reason there are so many theories is the vagueness of the prophecy and all of the red herrings GRRM uses, theres no way every other character ends up a legendary hero this is GRRM after all not Feist or Brooks 

[talvikorppi]

I just saw this as hint that diffrent parts of Westeros and Essos have different folk tales, e.g. Last Hero/Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai (reborn) are retellings of the same myth, Galladon Morne and the Crabb hero are retellings of the same heroic tale.

In Brienne's story, it's of course significant that Nimble Dick laughs at her idealised hero and his "magic" sword that he wouldn't use. What's the use of a magic sword if you don't use it? So, at Whispers, Brienne senses danger and sends Pod for her "magic" sword (it's only "magic" to her because it's given to her by Jaime. Oh, and Valyrian steel, forged from the Stark sword, to "defend" Sansa.)

The important point is that up until then, Brienne has been mistrustful of Nimble Dick, partly due to her experiences growing up and in the wars. She mistrusts everybody but Renly (dead), Lady Catelyn (dead), perhaps Pod, and Jaime (who first trusted in her, back in HH). Now she trusts Nimble Dick enough to give her sword to him while Pod goes for her "magic" sword. She trusts/believes his story over her idealised one, and trusts him enough to leave herself unarmed while Pod goes for Oathkeeper.

It's so poignant. Nimble Dick isn't much good with the sword Brienne gives him, and I think she really regrets not trusting him before (not that it would've changed anything), that's why she wants him decently buried and throws his reward in the grave. She's learned something about mistrust/trust. (It's also a huge thing that the Bloody Mummers are her first three kills, she's losing her innocence.)

And up pops Ser Hyle Hunt! lol! I love that guy! He's such a semi-cowardly opportunist and affable no-nonsense guy. But he did save Sam Tarly from drowning and stands up for Brienne against Randyll Tarly. His later marriage proposal to Brienne is, of course, for her lands and title, but I think he's learned some respect and fondness for our Maid of Tarth.

(In my headcanon, in TWOW, Jaime soon realises everything is not right, asks Brienne and she breaks.

Brienne: I'm to kill you, elsewise Lady Stoneheart will kill Pod and Ser Hyle...

Jaime: Who's Ser Hyle!? (all Red Ronnet jealous again - nevermind being told he's to be killed.))

 

Sorry, got a bit sidetracked from the issue of swords, legendary/magical/whatever.

[Minuteman]

I think that the Wall is Lightbringer and it was made by blood sacrifice by the killing of the NQ/Amethyst Empress or her child. I am open to the idea of Dawn being the weapon that did the sacrifice but I do think that the one doing the sacrifice was Bran the Builder (called Azor Ahai in the Essos version) and the the one sacrificed was his wife the NQ/Amethyst Empress or her daughter (called Nissa Nissa in the Essos version). The other children of that union are where the present day Starks. The Wall going up suspended the Long Night and thus literally brought the light of dawn. The Prince that was Promised is the one promised to ascend the throne vacated since the death of the NQ/Amethyst Empress and her brother usurper the Bloodstone Prince/R'hllor, who is the grand sire of the Valyrian sorcerer princes and hence the Targs. When the ptwp ascends the mystical throne of the Great Empire of the Dawn the Long Night will finally and totally end. Tptwp was the dragon waking from stone heralded by the red comet and is not Jon or Dany or anyone else we have yet met (and given GRRMs writing style may never meet). Rhaegar thought he was tptwp (wrong), and then that his son Aegon was (wrong again), and then that he must unify the Stark/Targ bloodlines to beget tptwp with Lyanna (wrong yet again).

[talvikorppi]

I think that the Wall is Lightbringer and it was made by blood sacrifice by the killing of the NQ/Amethyst Empress or her child. I am open to the idea of Dawn being the weapon that did the sacrifice but I do think that the one doing the sacrifice was Bran the Builder (called Azor Ahai in the Essos version) and the the one sacrificed was his wife the NQ/Amethyst Empress or her daughter (called Nissa Nissa in the Essos version). The other children of that union are where the present day Starks. The Wall going up suspended the Long Night and thus literally brought the light of dawn. The Prince that was Promised is the one promised to ascend the throne vacated since the death of the NQ/Amethyst Empress and her brother usurper the Bloodstone Prince/R'hllor, who is the grand sire of the Valyrian sorcerer princes and hence the Targs. When the ptwp ascends the mystical throne of the Great Empire of the Dawn the Long Night will finally and totally end. Tptwp was the dragon waking from stone heralded by the red comet and is not Jon or Dany or anyone else we have yet met (and given GRRMs writing style may never meet). Rhaegar thought he was tptwp (wrong), and then that his son Aegon was (wrong again), and then that he must unify the Stark/Targ bloodlines to beget tptwp with Lyanna (wrong yet again).

As someone who has only read the main story and hasn't read any of the "side stories", and has no idea who the Amethyst Emperors or whatever are... I think you're off track.

GRRM is good enough a writer to make ASOIAF a self-contained story. That means, you only have to read the main ASOIAF books (five, and counting...) to understand the story. GRRM has had to do a lot of world-building, and seems to like it, and lots of fans certainly like it, but none of this Amethyst Emperor stuff has been set up in the ASOIAF books. We've got Azor Ahai legends, Last Hero legends, Prince that was Promised legends, all set up early on in the series. They'll suffice, for this series of books.

Brienne's sword Oathkeeper is "magical" because it's Valyrian steel (rare and precisious) and given to her by Jaime for a very specific reason. And forged from Ice. We don't know how House Stark came by their Valyrian steel sword 400 years ago. Maybe they just plain bought it? And named it after the original Ice, the original ancestral sword?

I'm in the school that believes that what matters is the here and now of Westeros. That's the story we're reading, without any references to "Amethyst Emperors" or some such.

I might be proved wrong by GRRM in the end, when he invokes the "Amethyst Emperors" or some such, but I doubt it. It sounds like a cop out. That none of the ASOIAF stuff mattered because it was all down to some ancient thing. So, no.

[Bowen Marsh]

The key word is "maiden".  Virgin.  So, the candidates for skewering are Arya, Sansa, and Brienne. 

[talvikorppi]

The key word is "maiden".  Virgin.  So, the candidates for skewering are Arya, Sansa, and Brienne. 

Skewring whom? Or do you mean one of them being skewered, in some Nissa Nissa moment?

[Bowen Marsh]

Skewring whom? Or do you mean one of them being skewered, in some Nissa Nissa moment?

Blood sacrifice of a virgin, as in getting stabbed through the heart.  

[talvikorppi]

Blood sacrifice of a virgin, as in getting stabbed through the heart.  

I don't think GRRM is simplistic or old-fashioned enough to sacrifice a virgin (one of his well-drawn, multi-faceted female characters) for the (male) hero to have a "magic" sword.

I read the whole AA/Nissa Nissa thing as not literal (stab throught the heart of your beloved) but as an allegory of having to give up something you hold dear for the greater good.

[aryagonnakill#2]

As someone who has only read the main story and hasn't read any of the "side stories", and has no idea who the Amethyst Emperors or whatever are... I think you're off track.

GRRM is good enough a writer to make ASOIAF a self-contained story. That means, you only have to read the main ASOIAF books (five, and counting...) to understand the story. GRRM has had to do a lot of world-building, and seems to like it, and lots of fans certainly like it, but none of this Amethyst Emperor stuff has been set up in the ASOIAF books. We've got Azor Ahai legends, Last Hero legends, Prince that was Promised legends, all set up early on in the series. They'll suffice, for this series of books.

Brienne's sword Oathkeeper is "magical" because it's Valyrian steel (rare and precisious) and given to her by Jaime for a very specific reason. And forged from Ice. We don't know how House Stark came by their Valyrian steel sword 400 years ago. Maybe they just plain bought it? And named it after the original Ice, the original ancestral sword?

I'm in the school that believes that what matters is the here and now of Westeros. That's the story we're reading, without any references to "Amethyst Emperors" or some such.

I might be proved wrong by GRRM in the end, when he invokes the "Amethyst Emperors" or some such, but I doubt it. It sounds like a cop out. That none of the ASOIAF stuff mattered because it was all down to some ancient thing. So, no.

I don't think GRRM is simplistic or old-fashioned enough to sacrifice a virgin (one of his well-drawn, multi-faceted female characters) for the (male) hero to have a "magic" sword.

I read the whole AA/Nissa Nissa thing as not literal (stab throught the heart of your beloved) but as an allegory of having to give up something you hold dear for the greater good.

The post you said was off base was not drawing a theory from outside the main story.  In his theory he is just equating the Amathyst Empress to Nissa Nissa, theres nothing wrong with people who buy extra material getting a little extra out of it.

As to your second post, I almost feel like your ignoring everything we've seen and been told in the books.  Dany sacrifices Rhaego for Drago, then Drago for her dragons.  Vic burns the prostitutes and gets a wind to Mereen, Stannis burns his uncle or cousin or whatever and gets wind all the way to the wall, only death can pay for life, etc, etc.

[talvikorppi]

 

The post you said was off base was not drawing a theory from outside the main story.  In his theory he is just equating the Amathyst Empress to Nissa Nissa, theres nothing wrong with people who buy extra material getting a little extra out of it.

As to your second post, I almost feel like your ignoring everything we've seen and been told in the books.  Dany sacrifices Rhaego for Drago, then Drago for her dragons.  Vic burns the prostitutes and gets a wind to Mereen, Stannis burns his uncle or cousin or whatever and gets wind all the way to the wall, only death can pay for life, etc, etc.

I'd only say that no Amethyst Emperor has ever been mentioned in the main ASOIAF books. That's what I was trying to point out.

If I was a nasty, snipy person, I'd ask who the seven hells is Drago, but I won't.

[Minuteman]

As someone who has only read the main story and hasn't read any of the "side stories", and has no idea who the Amethyst Emperors or whatever are... I think you're off track.

GRRM is good enough a writer to make ASOIAF a self-contained story. That means, you only have to read the main ASOIAF books (five, and counting...) to understand the story. GRRM has had to do a lot of world-building, and seems to like it, and lots of fans certainly like it, but none of this Amethyst Emperor stuff has been set up in the ASOIAF books. We've got Azor Ahai legends, Last Hero legends, Prince that was Promised legends, all set up early on in the series. They'll suffice, for this series of books.

Brienne's sword Oathkeeper is "magical" because it's Valyrian steel (rare and precisious) and given to her by Jaime for a very specific reason. And forged from Ice. We don't know how House Stark came by their Valyrian steel sword 400 years ago. Maybe they just plain bought it? And named it after the original Ice, the original ancestral sword?

I'm in the school that believes that what matters is the here and now of Westeros. That's the story we're reading, without any references to "Amethyst Emperors" or some such.

I might be proved wrong by GRRM in the end, when he invokes the "Amethyst Emperors" or some such, but I doubt it. It sounds like a cop out. That none of the ASOIAF stuff mattered because it was all down to some ancient thing. So, no.

Martin has said that the entire mystery of the Others can be explained by aGoT alone. Given that the only concrete stories we have of the Others in aGoT was Old Nan's tales that means that the answer lies in BtBreaker, Joramun, the NQ/NK, and the Last Hero, It also means that whatever theory people come up with it must rectify those stories and only those stories as canon. Dawn had mention as did Ice but Oathkeeper did not yet exist so a bit of a red herring. Ice as we know could not have existed back to the time of the Long Night because Valyria did not exist. Tptwp and AAr were not mentioned until subsequent books so they are layers to the original story. Same can be said of the added tales that have come out in the many intervening years that Martin has published as supplemental to the story, Whatever was not in aGoT is supplemental. It has been mentioned by others on the forum that Martin had said deities do not exist in his universe so R'hllor, to the extent that he exists or did exist, is not a god. So how to explain that followers of R'hllor seem to have actual power? Read the bit about the Great Empire of Dawn on the Wiki and then imagine R'hllor as the Bloodstone Emperor and the NQ as the Amethyst Empress. To me there seems a definite convergence of the tales: different names and specifics but the core of the story is the same - a betrayal, the downfall of a royal woman, chaos and darkness, a suffering hero, and a deliverance. And keep in mind that the only one who talks about AA being a reincarnation tale is Mel. None of the other Red Priests do. So another red herring imho. But I do agree that we won't hear Martin spring the name Amethyst Empress on us. He probably won't spring the name the NQ or tptwp either because none of the principles will know themselves by such names.The story will resolve and we'll have to figure out on our own what it all meant. So what do the Others want? My bet is that they want what was put in the crypts of Winterfell when the NQ died and that thing is associated with tptwp. But that is just my opinion.

So my theory in summary: a female mystical being of great power took a human lover and had children by him some 8000 years before the present time of asoiaf. Her jealous sibling saw his chance to rule slip away so had her cast down and her lover put to death. This brings on the Long Night. One of the leaders set forth in search of the Children for how the Long Night can be brought to an end. The Children who are also suffering tell him how to build the Wall and that it would require the blood sacrifice of one of the royal line. This hero returns with the knowledge. The Starks have taken the daughter of the sovereign as wife (and henceforward are the Kings of Winter) and have children with her. But the sacrifice is made reluctantly with the woman willing or not. The Wall goes up and the Long Night ends. The same person may have performed multiple parts of this tale, or not, but you get the general picture. Essos and Westeros may tell it a little different and with different names but the backbone is consistent. Maybe nothing but it rings true to me.

[Lady Topspin]

Blood sacrifice of a virgin, as in getting stabbed through the heart.  

I don't think GRRM is simplistic or old-fashioned enough to sacrifice a virgin (one of his well-drawn, multi-faceted female characters) for the (male) hero to have a "magic" sword.

I read the whole AA/Nissa Nissa thing as not literal (stab throught the heart of your beloved) but as an allegory of having to give up something you hold dear for the greater good.

It's like bargaining with the devil.  The devil wants something precious.  Sacrificing a new-born baby is the most valuable because it has yet to sin, therefore, it is unstained.  Mel could burn Gillie's baby and out comes a miracle.  It's like sacrificing a pure white lamb. 

 

[Minuteman]

As someone who has only read the main story and hasn't read any of the "side stories", and has no idea who the Amethyst Emperors or whatever are... I think you're off track.

GRRM is good enough a writer to make ASOIAF a self-contained story. That means, you only have to read the main ASOIAF books (five, and counting...) to understand the story. GRRM has had to do a lot of world-building, and seems to like it, and lots of fans certainly like it, but none of this Amethyst Emperor stuff has been set up in the ASOIAF books. We've got Azor Ahai legends, Last Hero legends, Prince that was Promised legends, all set up early on in the series. They'll suffice, for this series of books.

Brienne's sword Oathkeeper is "magical" because it's Valyrian steel (rare and precisious) and given to her by Jaime for a very specific reason. And forged from Ice. We don't know how House Stark came by their Valyrian steel sword 400 years ago. Maybe they just plain bought it? And named it after the original Ice, the original ancestral sword?

I'm in the school that believes that what matters is the here and now of Westeros. That's the story we're reading, without any references to "Amethyst Emperors" or some such.

I might be proved wrong by GRRM in the end, when he invokes the "Amethyst Emperors" or some such, but I doubt it. It sounds like a cop out. That none of the ASOIAF stuff mattered because it was all down to some ancient thing. So, no.

I should also note that the the title of this post is Maiden Bringing (Made of technically) Light which is a Great Empire of the Dawn construct of which the Amethyst Empress is part. You shouldn't post that it is inappropriate to address the op with material not written in asoiaf when the op is specifically about a subject not written in asoiaf. Just sayin'.