Jump to content

House Dustin vs House Hornwood


Floki of the Ironborn

Recommended Posts

Here's something I don't understand about how the North treats the childless widows of noble houses.

On the one hand, there's Donella Hornwood. An old woman freshly widowed and bereft of her grown son during the War of the Five Kings.

On the other hand, there's Barbrey Dustin. A young woman freshly widowed after Robert's Rebellion.

One of them is viciously pursued by suitors for her worth as the widow to the last Lord of Hornwood, now deceased. Potential heirs are brought up and discussed by the Stark household, even as they consider who should marry Donella, despite her clear desire not to wed any of the suitors, claiming her old age and grief in defence.

The other is left completely alone, allowing her to run her dead husband's lands. She doesn't pick a second husband, nor does she name an heir, for eighteen years. And that whole time the Starks don't seem to have cared, nor anybody else for that matter.

I can understand that maybe Ned felt guilty about Willam dying at the Tower of Joy, but seriously? Barbrey Dustin is given free reign to rule House Dustin on her own, without any pressure to produce an heir to a powerful house that is descended from the Barrow Kings, while House Hornwood, less powerful by comparison, is in dire need to do the same? Hell, at least House Hornwood had a choice of legitimate Hornwood heirs; Larence Snow and the two Tallhart kids. House Dustin apparently has NOBODY left after Willam dies, which is strange on its own but shouldn't that demand some second son step in and take the Dustin name? Aren't there any other houses that have at least some Dustin blood from who knows how far back?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm guessing that Rodrick Ryswell's 'unknown wife' is a Dustin and that the Ryswells were the next in line. We see a lot of cousins marrying in the series and this was probably one of those times.

 

Bethany Ryswell was the oldest Ryswell and while she was alive her children would inherit the Dreadfort and Barrowton, that is why Domeric was sent to Barrowton as ward while she was alive as he would be in line for those lands and any future sons she would have would receive the Dreadfort (or vice versa) but once she died Domeric became the only option for the Dreadfort so he was sent elsewhere by Roose to establish stronger alliances.

Because of the fractious relationship of the Ryswell brothers (all wanting the Ryswell lands) they have allowed her to maintain her role as long as she remains single in the knowledge that it will still revert to one of them or their heirs in the futue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm guessing that Rodrick Ryswell's 'unknown wife' is a Dustin and that the Ryswells were the next in line. We see a lot of cousins marrying in the series and this was probably one of those times.

 

Bethany Ryswell was the oldest Ryswell and while she was alive her children would inherit the Dreadfort and Barrowton, that is why Domeric was sent to Barrowton as ward while she was alive as he would be in line for those lands and any future sons she would have would receive the Dreadfort (or vice versa) but once she died Domeric became the only option for the Dreadfort so he was sent elsewhere by Roose to establish stronger alliances.

Because of the fractious relationship of the Ryswell brothers (all wanting the Ryswell lands) they have allowed her to maintain her role as long as she remains single in the knowledge that it will still revert to one of them or their heirs in the futue.

So, assuming that the Ryswell siblings' mother is a Dustin, does that mean one of the Ryswell brothers will change his name to Dustin and inherit Barrowton when Barbrey dies?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed on this speculation. Barbrey having a Dustin mother or even a Dustin grandmother makes the most sense about her situation. It would also make sense as to why she was married to Willam Dustin in the end, to bring that bit of Dustin blood back into the "fold" as it were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a marriage wasn't arranged for Barbrey Dustin precisely because she was still young after Robert's Rebellion. She would pick a husband on her own time, there's no rush, after all she was in her early 20s. Time passed but because nobody raised the issue, she never remarried (although she refers to her as "old", she's in her late 30s.)

Lady Hornwood on the other hand is freshly widowed and really old, and that created a sudden political imbalance in the North, so it was a "problem" that had to be dealt with ASAP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lady Dustin had her family backing her, strenghtning her position.

That being said I do think her never remarrying is interesting. We have to believe House Dustin Went extinct, and thus Lady Dustin was allowed to keep Barrowton. However one would Think the Ryswells in this case would have an interest in her reamrrying to make sure her line get to keep Barrowton. Because if she dies without a heir it'd be far from clear the Ryswells would be able to claim it. Unless they actually already had a claim to press (maybe the Ryswells are the closest relatives of the Dustins, thus no one really can challenge their right to Barrowton?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

That being said I do think her never remarrying is interesting. We have to believe House Dustin Went extinct, )

I'm not sure if that is true. We know of at least two other Dustins alive at the time of Roberts Rebellion.

"Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had kin he might have sent in his stead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great-uncle who had fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. But he was a man and full of pride, nothing would serve but that he lead the Barrowton levies himself.

It would be odd if these three Dustin men all perished in Roberts Rebellion without leaving any children.

Then we have Ramsay being on his best behaviour around other nobles:

Of late, his lord had been forced to restrain himself, for Barrowton was full of men House Bolton needed, and Ramsay knew to be careful around the Dustins and Ryswells and his fellow lordlings.

 

Which implies that there are other Dustin cousins around as does Lady Dustins anger with the Freys over the loss of men at the Red Wedding:

"House Ryswell too," said Roger Ryswell.
"Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey."
 
I think this is just a case of it being a less than obvious line of succession and Lady Dustin has been allowed to maintain her position either because she has a pretty good claim or that the other nobles with Dustin blood don't want to tock the boat and cause  a mini civil war.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure if that is true. We know of at least two other Dustins alive at the time of Roberts Rebellion.

"Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had kin he might have sent in his stead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great-uncle who had fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. But he was a man and full of pride, nothing would serve but that he lead the Barrowton levies himself.

It would be odd if these three Dustin men all perished in Roberts Rebellion without leaving any children.

Then we have Ramsay being on his best behaviour around other nobles:

Of late, his lord had been forced to restrain himself, for Barrowton was full of men House Bolton needed, and Ramsay knew to be careful around the Dustins and Ryswells and his fellow lordlings.

 

Which implies that there are other Dustin cousins around as does Lady Dustins anger with the Freys over the loss of men at the Red Wedding:

"House Ryswell too," said Roger Ryswell.
"Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey."
 
I think this is just a case of it being a less than obvious line of succession and Lady Dustin has been allowed to maintain her position either because she has a pretty good claim or that the other nobles with Dustin blood don't want to tock the boat and cause  a mini civil war.

 

I don't think everyone they call 'Dustins' are actually from that family. A house's bannermen are usually called by the house name that they serve.

And maybe his uncle and great uncle didn't die in Robert's Rebellion or maybe they did. They could also have died in the Greyjoy rebellion or just of old age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

House Dustin just suffers from that chronic sickness in which a supposedly ancient and rich Westerosi family can only have one living branch on its family tree so that the plot can work. Other known sufferers of this sickness include Houses Caron, Dondarrion, Bolton, Velaryon, I'm starting to see a pattern with these names...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think everyone they call 'Dustins' are actually from that family. A house's bannermen are usually called by the house name that they serve.

And maybe his uncle and great uncle didn't die in Robert's Rebellion or maybe they did. They could also have died in the Greyjoy rebellion or just of old age.

Not once in the series has it been said that there are no other Dustins alive. Not once. If that family had been extinct we would have been told about it.

Just like House Hornwood is not extinct, there are other Hornwoods out there but the succession line is complicated with many females being the closest heirs rather than males.

Maester Luwin answered. "With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands. The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys's bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know, but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance."

 

Or House Arryn, the closest family relation was though a female line but there are other Arrysn in the Vale. Now Harry being the heir is less complicated because he is the only living great Grandson from Jasper Arryn. However had there been a few more great grand children it would be far more complicated and like the Hornwood lands, would need a higher authority (Lord of the North/King of Westeros) to intervene before bloodshed.

There is nothing to suggest that the Dustins have become extinct 17 years ago, that there are not other minor Dustins around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there is no direct heir like the case of the Barrowlands and the Dustins. Why did Lady Dustin keep the lands instead of the Stark's inheriting it or claiming it since there are no available heirs?

And why wasn't Hornwood bastard to inherit/legitimised to inherit the Hornwood lands? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm guessing that Rodrick Ryswell's 'unknown wife' is a Dustin and that the Ryswells were the next in line. We see a lot of cousins marrying in the series and this was probably one of those times.

Wow.  That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

And I don't think Ned's guilt should be overlooked.  If the other nobles of the Dustin lands accepted her rule, I don't think Ned would have seen any need to intervene or force her into a marriage.  The Barrowlands and Rills make up a huge tract of land with significant strategic importance, so I can't imagine that Winterfell just left things to settle out as they will. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...