Euron, Bloodraven and the Storm God

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I doubt Euron is working for anyone, I never got that vibe from chapters involving him. I think he just wants to use magical items to his advantage, he knows a lot, that's for sure.

I guess I would say that he is "working for [some]one" either. Would we say that Jesus was working for God the Father? We would probably not phrase it like that. He doesn't worship or follow the Storm God. I'd rather say he considers himself blessed by the Storm God, his chosen one, his avatar or something. Does that ring more true?

[BadWo1f]

I guess I would say that he is "working for [some]one" either. Would we say that Jesus was working for God the Father? We would probably not phrase it like that. He doesn't worship or follow the Storm God. I'd rather say he considers himself blessed by the Storm God, his chosen one, his avatar or something. Does that ring more true?

I think Euron is more like medieval kings, use religion as an advantage, for conquering, getting support etc. What did Euron do for us to compare him to Jesus (in terms of spreading the word)? He found and item for purpose of dragon control and he brought wizards from far East, anything else that could be connected to religion? (I'm really asking, didn't read books in a while). Euron just didn't give that vibe, maybe I'm wrong, there are twists and turns, secrets, this is GRRM after all.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I think Euron is more like medieval kings, use religion as an advantage, for conquering, getting support etc. What did Euron do for us to compare him to Jesus (in terms of spreading the word)? He found and item for purpose of dragon control and he brought wizards from far East, anything else that could be connected to religion? (I'm really asking, didn't read books in a while). Euron just didn't give that vibe, maybe I'm wrong, there are twists and turns, secrets, this is GRRM after all.

Well, I think he considers himself something of a demigod walking the earth. That's why I used the Jesus comparison. It's not that he seems very connected to religion per se. He seems connected to the Storm God for many reasons. He calls himself the Storm. Isn't that strange for an Ironborn? And not only that, but he actually seems to have control over the winds. That's his most important power. And he wants dragons. I think that's another connection, because the sea dragons are the Storm God's creatures. Dany's dragons are the next best thing. And Dany. What do they call her again? Stormborn. There is more like that. It always comes down to Euron and the storm.

[Durran Durrandon]

Well, I think he considers himself something of a demigod walking the earth. That's why I used the Jesus comparison. It's not that he seems very connected to religion per se. He seems connected to the Storm God for many reasons. He calls himself the Storm. Isn't that strange for an Ironborn? And not only that, but he actually seems to have control over the winds. That's his most important power. And he wants dragons. I think that's another connection, because the sea dragons are the Storm God's creatures. Dany's dragons are the next best thing. And Dany. What do they call her again? Stormborn. There is more like that. It always comes down to Euron and the storm.

So, I agree that he thinks he is a demi god of sorts, and I am open to the possibility that he was contacted by or had visions of Blood Raven at some. I will stop at the idea that his goals have been planted in his head by Blood Raven. That needs further evidence to support it. As for thinking of himself as a demigod, I'll just say again he thinks of himself as the BSE. If you get a chance look set my Amethyst Empress Reborn essay on the link bellow. He references the gemstone emperors and Danny's Amethyst eyes. He wants more than dragons, for sure.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

So, I agree that he thinks he is a demi god of sorts, and I am open to the possibility that he was contacted by or had visions of Blood Raven at some. I will stop at the idea that his goals have been planted in his head by Blood Raven. That needs further evidence to support it. As for thinking of himself as a demigod, I'll just say again he thinks of himself as the BSE. If you get a chance look set my Amethyst Empress Reborn essay on the link bellow. He references the gemstone emperors and Danny's Amethyst eyes. He wants more than dragons, for sure.

I don't really have anything to refute that. I thnk your theory is one for which it is way too early to really judge it. Maybe it will come up in the remaining books. Or maybe it will only ever be hinted at. It's a very good theory, yet we have very little direct evidence. Anyway, I don't see a problem with that at all. Why should he not think he is both? Why should he not think the Bloodstone Emperor and the Storm God's chosen one are one and the same?

My real question would be: Is it in Bloodraven's interest for Euron to reanact the story of the Bloodstone Emperor?

[Regular John Umber]

 Thanks to an essay from @Pretty Pig, I'm now convinced that Euron was an intended pupil of Bloodraven's, but for some reason Bloodraven dropped him and picked up Bran for tutelage. Euron is now trying to win back his old mentor's favour ("A bride worthy of him" - him=BR).

[BadWo1f]

Well, I think he considers himself something of a demigod walking the earth. That's why I used the Jesus comparison. It's not that he seems very connected to religion per se. He seems connected to the Storm God for many reasons. He calls himself the Storm. Isn't that strange for an Ironborn? And not only that, but he actually seems to have control over the winds. That's his most important power. And he wants dragons. I think that's another connection, because the sea dragons are the Storm God's creatures. Dany's dragons are the next best thing. And Dany. What do they call her again? Stormborn. There is more like that. It always comes down to Euron and the storm.

Yea, but all of this could simply be explained like this: Dragons can give him power to rule over Westeros because he lacks army and material. Wind...Well he traveled to other side of the world, man uses ships for transport, I think learning how to go faster might be a top priority for someone who uses magic. Dose not mean he's into Storm Gods, I think Viktarion or Theon or anyone would like some wind to move faster and who would say no to a dragon?. I can see where you are coming from, it's not impossible don't take me wrong, I just don't buy it. I think he's more of a guy who learns and explores in order to learn how to use things to his advantage.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Yea, but all of this could simply be explained like this: Dragons can give him power to rule over Westeros because he lacks army and material. Wind...Well he traveled to other side of the world, man uses ships for transport, I think learning how to go faster might be a top priority for someone who uses magic. Dose not mean he's into Storm Gods, I think Viktarion or Theon or anyone would like some wind to move faster and who would say no to a dragon?. I can see where you are coming from, it's not impossible don't take me wrong, I just don't buy it. I think he's more of a guy who learns and explores in order to learn how to use things to his advantage.

That's fine, of course. Let's agree to disagree then. I just think, of course, you can explain any piece of evidence away by itself. If that weren't the case this wouldn't be a theory at this point, but fact. I think we really need to look at the whole picture. I mean, it's not like I am making the Storm God connection up - and I know you didn't say that.  There's the wind and the dragons and this girl called "Stormborn". AND he calls himself the Storm and Aeron quite often links him to the Storm God (somewhat unintentionally) and he is very much into the Storm God's animal, the crow/raven.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

 Thanks to an essay from @Pretty Pig, I'm now convinced that Euron was an intended pupil of Bloodraven's, but for some reason Bloodraven dropped him and picked up Bran for tutelage. Euron is now trying to win back his old mentor's favour ("A bride worthy of him" - him=BR).

So, do you think he knows who Bloodraven is? And do you think Bloodraven completely dropped him? Or has he still plans for him? I don't know that essay, I fear.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I too have made the connection that BR may have contacted Euron.  Perhaps Euron couldn't fly in his dream, and was 1 of the impaled greenseers Bran saw.  Perhaps BR realized he was evil, perhaps were reading too much into it.

I just now come up with that thought, reading your post again: Do you think Bloodraven would even care, if his disciple is "evil"? Do you think "evil" is even a valid category for Bloodraven? Because I am not so sure.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I just now come up with that thought, reading your post again: Do you think Bloodraven would even care, if his disciple is "evil"? Do you think "evil" is even a valid category for Bloodraven? Because I am not so sure.

Evil is probably a more complicated concept than most people would give it credit for.  POV matters a lot, but if we consider it from a human POV than yes I think BR would care.  BR is shown as an ends justify the means kind of guy in the D&E novels and what we know of his banishment to the NW, but his "ends" were the same that we as readers would identify as "good".  Now if we consider his end goal to be humans defeating the Others, than yes I think he would care.  I don't think he'd care about Euron sleeping with his brothers wife, but if Euron would do things that would help the WW's than yes I think BR would care.  He wouldn't have to directly help the WW's either, but using his powers to conquer and create dead bodies and reduce the power of the kingdom at the very time the WW's are about to attack are clearly actions that will/would help them and he would not condone that.

[house of dayne]

my hunch is that euron is in fact a catpaw of the iron bank of braavos..braavos created king euron as an extension of their support to danys claim to the iron throne as the unofficial navy of mother of dragons...sometime before the kingsmoot, euron purchased the death of king baelon with a dragons egg paid to the faceless men..braavos in turn supported his claim at the kingsmoot by filling his ships holds with treasure to purchase his claim to the throne..his crew, conveniently mute, can offer no tale to make the connection to braavos.. in return for his crown, king euron and the iron fleet at his disposal became a client of the bank.the sealord of braavos has a pact with dorne and the targaryens to return dany to the throne...what better way than compelling euron to send perhaps the finest navy in all of westeros lead by his very brother to escort her? braavos must be especially motivated upon hearing of the return of the dragons to the world given their own history...danys reputation as the breaker of chains and liberator of slaves would compel the people of braavos to ally her as soon as possible  to assure her dragons never threaten their own security....the bank profits greatly from the wars of westeros as each claimant to the iron throne come to the bank to fund their wars against the others...as kings rise and fall the debts to the bank continue to grow...we know the bank has supported the lannisters and now the stannis baratheon claim to the throne...euron as king of the iron islands assures the braavosi that war will continue for quite some time..

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Evil is probably a more complicated concept than most people would give it credit for.  POV matters a lot, but if we consider it from a human POV than yes I think BR would care.  BR is shown as an ends justify the means kind of guy in the D&E novels and what we know of his banishment to the NW, but his "ends" were the same that we as readers would identify as "good".  Now if we consider his end goal to be humans defeating the Others, than yes I think he would care.  I don't think he'd care about Euron sleeping with his brothers wife, but if Euron would do things that would help the WW's than yes I think BR would care.  He wouldn't have to directly help the WW's either, but using his powers to conquer and create dead bodies and reduce the power of the kingdom at the very time the WW's are about to attack are clearly actions that will/would help them and he would not condone that.

I would argue, I guess, that evil characters and bad ends are two very different things. You said yourself that Bloodraven is an ends-over-means kind of guy. He is. Therefore, he would not mind using an evil person for a good end, would he? Like the devil being a mere instrument of god's will or something. What if Euron sending Victarion to Dany, finding that horn and all that is way more important than a little war along the Mander? If that's the case, Bloodraven approves, I guess.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

my hunch is that euron is in fact a catpaw of the iron bank of braavos..braavos created king euron as an extension of their support to danys claim to the iron throne as the unofficial navy of mother of dragons...sometime before the kingsmoot, euron purchased the death of king baelon with a dragons egg paid to the faceless men..braavos in turn supported his claim at the kingsmoot by filling his ships holds with treasure to purchase his claim to the throne..his crew, conveniently mute, can offer no tale to make the connection to braavos.. in return for his crown, king euron and the iron fleet at his disposal became a client of the bank.the sealord of braavos has a pact with dorne and the targaryens to return dany to the throne...what better way than compelling euron to send perhaps the finest navy in all of westeros lead by his very brother to escort her? braavos must be especially motivated upon hearing of the return of the dragons to the world given their own history...danys reputation as the breaker of chains and liberator of slaves would compel the people of braavos to ally her as soon as possible  to assure her dragons never threaten their own security....the bank profits greatly from the wars of westeros as each claimant to the iron throne come to the bank to fund their wars against the others...as kings rise and fall the debts to the bank continue to grow...we know the bank has supported the lannisters and now the stannis baratheon claim to the throne...euron as king of the iron islands assures the braavosi that war will continue for quite some time..

This seems pretty original. Never heard of that idea. I am having a handfull of problems with it at first glance.

1) Is Euron that kind of reasonable guy?

2) Does the Iron Bank really profit from so much hardship and chaos? I think that there is a limit to that. Yes, war might bring profits, but when the war doesn't stop there simply not enough wealth to pay the Iron Bank and not enough people alive to collect those payments from.

3) If the Braavosi truely support Dany, they cannot want Euron to be the dominant part of that couple. Euron is certainly nor breaker of chains. If they indeed want Dany to dominate Euron, how do they hope to achieve that? And would they not want peace (much unlike 2)? And why would Euron promise the ironborn the whole of Westeros? I mean, did they tell Euron that he will be king of the whole realm, while actually it will be Dany and he will have to explain that to the ironborn?

[house of dayne]

This seems pretty original. Never heard of that idea. I am having a handfull of problems with it at first glance.

1) Is Euron that kind of reasonable guy?

2) Does the Iron Bank really profit from so much hardship and chaos? I think that there is a limit to that. Yes, war might bring profits, but when the war doesn't stop there simply not enough wealth to pay the Iron Bank and not enough people alive to collect those payments from.

3) If the Braavosi truely support Dany, they cannot want Euron to be the dominant part of that couple. Euron is certainly nor breaker of chains. If they indeed want Dany to dominate Euron, how do they hope to achieve that? And would they not want peace (much unlike 2)? And why would Euron promise the ironborn the whole of Westeros? I mean, did they tell Euron that he will be king of the whole realm, while actually it will be Dany and he will have to explain that to the ironborn?

my scenario regarding euron and the bank would suppose that he is squarely in the employ of the bank..perhaps instead of sailing the wide seas as euron alone contends, he was rotting in a braavosi cell as a pirate and slaver...the braavosi, in need of a navy to make good their support of the targaryen claim to the throne, are loathe to offer and risk their own precious sails for a westrosi battle..but a few key simple moves could put easily arrange for eurons coronation and with his crown comes the iron fleet at the service of the iron bank...the power of of the faceless men im sure was impressed upon him..treasure sufficient to prove his claims and stake his royal claim at the kingsmoot was a small price to pay for the iron fleet..the price for eurons  crown was the very navy that made the ironborn relevant ata all in westrosi politics...instead of unleashing its might on lannisport or oldtown  euron sends it halfway round the world to risk itself in a completely foreign skirmish..

my overall point is i think people often forget how heavily invested braavos is to westeros..because their actions are largely unreported to the reader thus far their influence is often overlooked..

[aryagonnakill#2]

I would argue, I guess, that evil characters and bad ends are two very different things. You said yourself that Bloodraven is an ends-over-means kind of guy. He is. Therefore, he would not mind using an evil person for a good end, would he? Like the devil being a mere instrument of god's will or something. What if Euron sending Victarion to Dany, finding that horn and all that is way more important than a little war along the Mander? If that's the case, Bloodraven approves, I guess.

I would agree with your point if it were the case.  I do think he would not have any problem manipulating someone like that, but I don't think he would train the person to be a stronger warg/greenseer if he thought they would not be on the "good" side.  We are told that 1 in a thousand men are wargs and 1 in a thousand wargs are greenseers.  That's actually only 1 in a million so Bran should not be the only. 

This is all rampant speculation at this point, but the forum seems pretty dead right now.  I wonder if Star wars took people.

[Ice Queen]

I suspect his crow's eye is the color of green seers, but specifically in his case dark, almost black, green with red deposits. It's called his Crow's Eye because he wargs crows, which is why he has them on his flag. The eye on the flag is also black and red, bloodstone. He worships himself. He identifies himself with the Bloodstone Emperor, which is why he tells Victarion that Danny has amethyst eyes. No one else describes her eyes that way, with the exception of Victarion repeating him. He even references the gemstone emperors in his " I'm the Godliest Man" speech.

Great post. I agree with everything you said. I just want to know if you're saying that Euron is Azor Ahai, or he thinks he is? 

[Durran Durrandon]

Great post. I agree with everything you said. I just want to know if you're saying that Euron is Azor Ahai, or he thinks he is? 

It all depends on what we mean when we say a character is legendary -figure-x reborn. Is it symbolic, a foreshadowed path, an archetype, a fulfilled role, literal reincarnation? I think Euron will try to fulfil the role of the BSE/AA in that he will try to kidnap, mary, and sacrifice Danny. Is he a literal incarnation of the BSE/AA? I doubt that will ever be answered in the books, but I would say no. First, I think he will fail, second I think Jon will end up fulfilling that role more closely, but will act to correct the damage done by the BSE before the first Long Night, sacrificing himself in someway, rather than Danny. Will that make Jon the real BSE/AA reborn? Again, I don't think we will ever see that answered, but it seems like we should see at least two false AAs before we get the "true" messiah.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

my scenario regarding euron and the bank would suppose that he is squarely in the employ of the bank..perhaps instead of sailing the wide seas as euron alone contends, he was rotting in a braavosi cell as a pirate and slaver...the braavosi, in need of a navy to make good their support of the targaryen claim to the throne, are loathe to offer and risk their own precious sails for a westrosi battle..but a few key simple moves could put easily arrange for eurons coronation and with his crown comes the iron fleet at the service of the iron bank...the power of of the faceless men im sure was impressed upon him..treasure sufficient to prove his claims and stake his royal claim at the kingsmoot was a small price to pay for the iron fleet..the price for eurons  crown was the very navy that made the ironborn relevant ata all in westrosi politics...instead of unleashing its might on lannisport or oldtown  euron sends it halfway round the world to risk itself in a completely foreign skirmish..

my overall point is i think people often forget how heavily invested braavos is to westeros..because their actions are largely unreported to the reader thus far their influence is often overlooked..

Hm, so the Braavosi send the slaver to Westeros to ... make new slaves and send them across the world? Because that's what's happend, isn't it? I guess the Braavosi would have told him not to do such things, of they actually sent him.

I agree about most of the rest: Braavos is very much overlooked by many. And yes, the money to "buy" the kingsmoot would be quite a small price for the Iron Fleet.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

It all depends on what we mean when we say a character is legendary -figure-x reborn. Is it symbolic, a foreshadowed path, an archetype, a fulfilled role, literal reincarnation? I think Euron will try to fulfil the role of the BSE/AA in that he will try to kidnap, mary, and sacrifice Danny. Is he a literal incarnation of the BSE/AA? I doubt that will ever be answered in the books, but I would say no. First, I think he will fail, second I think Jon will end up fulfilling that role more closely, but will act to correct the damage done by the BSE before the first Long Night, sacrificing himself in someway, rather than Danny. Will that make Jon the real BSE/AA reborn? Again, I don't think we will ever see that answered, but it seems like we should see at least two false AAs before we get the "true" messiah.

My main issue here is that I doubt that we really will see Azor Ahai reborn they way Mel thinks we will. I don't believe in the victory of light/fire. Since "Azor Ahai reborn" is a concept created by the red priests, I doubt that it is very accurate. So, I'd say we will get one or more heroes that the red priests will consider "Azor Ahai reborn", but since the whole story of "Azor Ahai reborn" is somewhat flawed, how can we even say that's the guy or not? I would rather want to answer the question if Jon is in some meaningful way the truth behind one or more of the prophecies.