The Black Gate and Mance Rayder

[TPTWP Timett]

Mance Rayder was once a man of the Night's Watch so I believe he could still use the black gate.  I'm aware that there is nothing to suggest he even knows where it's at but I was curious if any others thought he could use it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Mance Rayder was once a man of the Night's Watch so I believe he could still use the black gate.  I'm aware that there is nothing to suggest he even knows where it's at but I was curious if any others thought he could use it.

Why would he? He is currently in (or perhaps under or near) Winterfell, presumably singing for Ramsay, Skinner and the other Bastard's Boys. 

BTW I dig your nom de plume. I don't think Timett is the prince that was promised, but I do think he's a descendant of Alys and Aemond, and that he's gonna ride a dragon. 

[TPTWP Timett]

Why would he? He is currently in (or perhaps under or near) Winterfell, presumably singing for Ramsay, Skinner and the other Bastard's Boys. 

BTW I dig your nom de plume. I don't think Timett is the prince that was promised, but I do think he's a descendant of Alys and Aemond, and that he's gonna ride a dragon. 

If you a raider and know where a nice easy gate is wouldn't you use it instead of climbing a giant ice wall?  I don't think he did really just thinking about if you broke your oath but haven't been executed if they gate's magic would let you pass or if it would know somehow.  And thanks I don't really think he is TPTWP but I do think he has a bigger role to play. 

[Clegane'sPup]

I think yes, if Mance knows where the Black Gate is he could have used it. Mance was a Sworn Brother of the NW. Seems like the only other requirement is to know the words:

“I am the sword in the darkness.I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.”

The only drawback I can see is that the gate is a magical, talking, blind weirwood tree and it might know that Mance is no longer an active Sworn Brother of the NW.

Interesting question.

 

[sarah.jenice]

I think yes, if Mance knows where the Black Gate is he could have used it. Mance was a Sworn Brother of the NW. Seems like the only other requirement is to know the words:

“I am the sword in the darkness.I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.”

The only drawback I can see is that the gate is a magical, talking, blind weirwood tree and it might know that Mance is no longer an active Sworn Brother of the NW.

Interesting question.

Since the gate seems magical, I think it probably would only open for a current sworn brother, not a deserter. 

If Mance did know about it and was able to use it, was that how he got past the Wall when he went to Winterfell as part of Robert's entourag? 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Interesting question.  I'm inclined to say no, however what if the gate knew more than we do, for example that Mance was ultimately doing a rally good service to the whole world by bringing the wildlings south and greatly reducing the number of wights that could assault the wall.  Maybe the gate can decide for itself, or maybe it is bound by rules to only work for an active NW member.

[Taenqyrhae]

I think one needs to know more than the words, didn't Coldhands say he couldn't pass through the gate?  Even if he was not a member of the Watch, it seems likely he is in contact with Bloodraven who was.

We don't know enough about what exactly the Black Gate is - it certainly appears to be a once living person who has been transformed.  Can it tell loyal members of the Watch from deserters?  Is it telepathic?  Can it make judgment calls?

[Bloodmane]

From the persperctive of the Black Gate he might be considered not a deseter but a brother on a really long ranging The primordial enemies of the NW are probably the Others, and Mace fought against them more then all his brothers combined.

[TPTWP Timett]

 

If Mance did know about it and was able to use it, was that how he got past the Wall when he went to Winterfell as part of Robert's entourag? 

when i was doing my re-read and got to the black gate that was my thought did he use it when he went to winterfell. I assume he was already working on gathering the wildlings and he knows the whole thing relies on him climbing the wall seems like to great a risk. I still don't think he knows about it but wouldn't be surprised at all to learn later on that he has been using it all along. 

[Whitering]

I'd like if it was more a spirit thing, and Mance is definitely opposed to the Others, so, that's ultimately what the Oath is about, and the words also.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I think the knowledge of the Black Gate was lost to the Night's Watch long ago. I do not believe any current rangers are aware of it except for Sam ....and Coldhands showed him where it was.

Coldhands couldn't pass because he was a wight, not because he was no longer NW and the gate and Wall is warded to keep them out.

If Mance knew about it, he would have used it in a heartbeat to get his people south, if he could open it, but I think he climbed the Wall whenever he wanted to go South by himself.

[Clegane'sPup]

Since the gate seems magical, I think it probably would only open for a current sworn brother, not a deserter. 

If Mance did know about it and was able to use it, was that how he got past the Wall when he went to Winterfell as part of Robert's entourag? 

Nope, according to what Mance told Jon (ASoS Jon I):    "The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company.

The Bran IV ASoS, chapter 56, has some interesting discussion about the Black Gate.

[sarah.jenice]

 

Nope, according to what Mance told Jon (ASoS Jon I):    "The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company.

The Bran IV ASoS, chapter 56, has some interesting discussion about the Black Gate.

I thought I remembered something like that but it's been a while since I read ASoS.

[Minuteman]

I think it depends on the Brother. The Black Gate is weirwood and Sam was one of the few brothers to say his vows before a weirwood tree. There is a line in the books along the line of "the trees remember" so I think that only a Brother sworn before a weirwood would be recognized by the guardian as a Brother of the NW and would allow said Brother to pass if the words were spoken. Also, remember that the Black Gate is in a well under the kitchen in the Nightfort. It is not under the Wall though it evidently leads to a tunnel system that crosses under the Wall (and likely goes other places as well). So the Black Gate seems to exist to control who gets in and out of the Nightfort through the tunnels but not who gets across the Wall (Ygritte said there were tunnels (plural) crossing the Wall but the ways were unknown). Personally, I think this is a major clue to how the story will unfold. It is known that during the Long Night people survived by living in tunnels. If these tunnels interconnect the oldest NW fortresses then there would have been a need for gates to limit who gets in and out of them - whether they be living bandits or wights or any other nasty. But when the Wall went up and the Long Night ended the gates would lose purpose and eventually be lost to memory. So the Nightfort and by consequence the NW is older than the Wall. So the NK/NQ episode may have happened before the Wall and before the Long Night. Personally I think that the NK/NQ episode is what brought on the Long Night, the raising of the Wall is what ended the Long Night, that the secret to building the Wall is what the Last Hero learned from the Children, that secret required a blood sacrifice, and the Wall is what the people of Essos, who would never have seen it, call Lightbringer making it a metaphorical sword forged from the heartsblood of a woman. But, regardless, I do think that the trees need to see the Brother swear his oath and suspect that Coldhands could have crossed through the Gate but he couldn't get there because it is on the far side of the Wall and the Wall does not allow wights to pass. As far as Mance goes I doubt that he could use the Gate if the trees had seen him break his vows (assuming he would have broken the vows as understood by the old NW). Maybe not but just a theory.

[TPTWP Timett]

I think it depends on the Brother. The Black Gate is weirwood and Sam was one of the few brothers to say his vows before a weirwood tree. There is a line in the books along the line of "the trees remember" so I think that only a Brother sworn before a weirwood would be recognized by the guardian as a Brother of the NW and would allow said Brother to pass if the words were spoken. 

I never thought of the angle of how one swore their oath and it certainly adds a interesting element.  I hope we see more of the black gate and the nightfort I think it could provide a lot of insight plus it's awesome. 

[desire]

If he knew about the gate he would not have jumped the wall. Also Jojen and Meera knew nothing bout it and still passed it

[Nevets]

I think knowledge about the gate has been lost and the only reason Sam knew about it was because he had been digging around in the old histories.  It kind of sounds like anyone who knows the words of the oath could open the gate. For example, if Meera were to run back to the wall, I think she would be able to open it, even though she is not in the NW, but I'm not sure of that.   Coldhands couldn't pass because the magic of the wall kept him out, probably because he is a wight.

[Clegane'sPup]

I never thought of the angle of how one swore their oath and it certainly adds a interesting element.  I hope we see more of the black gate and the nightfort I think it could provide a lot of insight plus it's awesome. 

 

I think we will see more of the Nightfort in the future. Stannis has claimed it as his seat. He plans on setting up keep there after he deals with the WF trouble. Back to the gate. Two things struck my curiosity.  One being that Martin put part of Bran’s thoughts it in italics:

If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The other was how Bran described the drop of water that fell on him.  “It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.”

Any thoughts about what those two lines are implying? I supplied the text for context.

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The door opened its eyes.

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

[TPTWP Timett]

 

I think we will see more of the Nightfort in the future. Stannis has claimed it as his seat. He plans on setting up keep there after he deals with the WF trouble. Back to the gate. Two things struck my curiosity.  One being that Martin put part of Bran’s thoughts it in italics:

If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The other was how Bran described the drop of water that fell on him.  “It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.”

Any thoughts about what those two lines are implying? I supplied the text for context.

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The door opened its eyes.

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

 

 

I wish I did have a good idea all I have is crackpot ideas. I always thought the gate did shed a tear for Bran though I don't have a good idea why. And I always thought the description of the gate's face was a hint to how Bran will live a very long time in the tree but that's all I got

[dornishdame]

I think knowledge about the gate has been lost and the only reason Sam knew about it was because he had been digging around in the old histories.  It kind of sounds like anyone who knows the words of the oath could open the gate. For example, if Meera were to run back to the wall, I think she would be able to open it, even though she is not in the NW, but I'm not sure of that.   Coldhands couldn't pass because the magic of the wall kept him out, probably because he is a wight.

Sam reading it in one of the old scrolls in the Castle Black library is a possibility, as is Coldhands knowing of the gate's existence and knowing that while Sam could pass, he could not.  The Nightfort was once the main castle on the Wall, and was abandoned two centuries before Sam passed through the gate.  

While Castle Black uses a tunnel, it is not inconceivable that Sam passes through the normal route northward from the Nightfort when it was occupied by the Watch.  If Coldhands is more than two centuries old - certainly possible, given that we are told by Leaf that "They killed him long ago" - then it is not inconceivable that Coldhands was based at the Nightfort and used the gate himself during his time with the Watch.