The Great Council of 101

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Who were the 11 claimants of the Great Council of 101? Were they the only living descendants of Aegon I or the 11 with the best claims?

4 from Canon:

We know for a fact that Rhaenys, her children Laenor, Laena and Viserys were considered. 

Almost definitely:

Maester Vaegon, who was the only living son of Jaehaerys. We know he became a Maester but was most likely considered regardless (like Aemon)

Alyssa Targaryen, oldest living child of Jaehaerys and mother of Viserys.

 

Possible:

Daemon Targaryen, younger brother of Viserys

Rhanerya Taragaryen, baby daughter of Viserys

Aemma Arryn, granddaughter of Jaehaerys

Aegon Targaryen, youngest brother of Aegon. Now outside of the family tree there is no mention of Aegon, not in the History book or the Rogue Prince and the Princess and the Queen. None of the Dragons are mentioned as belonging to him. So either he died early, became a Maester or left for Essos. But he remains a possibility in 101.

Saera Targaryen: Likely to be alive in 101 but almost certainly not considered as she ran off to Essos never to return.

 

Other possibilities:

Rhaena Targaryen. Oldest child of Aenys I, wife to Prince Aegon and King Maekar. She would have been 26 when Maekar died, still young enough to remarry and have more children. So while she was certainly dead she may have living descendants by the time of 101 from any 3rd marriage.

Rhalla and Aerea. Twin daughters of Rhaena and Aegon. Like there mother they would probably be dead by 101 but would possibly have living descendants. Being twins their descendents would have equal claims with each other.

Daella Targaryen: Though the wiki states that her daughter Aemma was an only child I think this must be a mistake as why would the young Jeyne be ruler of the Vale in 101 when Aemma was still alive?* And why was the Jeyne the only female Regent?

 

Does anyone know any other possibilities? Could Ran hint at anything on the Arryn situation or if the 11 claimants were the only living Targaryens at the time?

 

 

*This theory has been in my head for a long time but I have just considered, typing this, that Daella was not Lord Arryns first wife(DOH!) thus explaining why Aemma was not the heir/ruler of the Vale in 101. 

 

[Lord Varys]

This was a very interesting question back when TWoIaF first came out.

The nine lesser claimants all have to be descendants of Aerea and Rhalla Targaryen, or descendants of Princess Rhaena from a speculative third marriage (she was young enough to take a third husband after Maegor's early demise), or (unlikely) descendants of a (legitimized) bastard branch of House Targaryen we know as of yet nothing about.

How do we know that? Because Ran confirmed that Princess Rhaenys did not present her own claim nor the claim of her daughter Laena to the assembled lords. Instead, she and Corlys put all their prestige and power into pushing Laenor Velaryon's claim.

If you think about it, this makes the most sense. The Old King had already passed over Princess Rhaenys because of her gender back in 92 AC, but neither Jaehaerys I nor the assembled lords could now use that excuse against Laenor. He was male, and he was of the elder branch.

There were essentially two major factions - Prince Aemon's branch against the branch of Prince Baelon - and you would not weaken the position of your camp by presenting multiple claimant. If Rhaenys or Laena had presented their claims (or rather if Corlys and Rhaenys had spoken for Rhaenys, Laena, and Laenor) things would have been very confusing.

Vice versa, Baelon's camp would have weakened its position if Princess Alyssa, Prince Daemon, or Prince Aegon had presented their own claims in addition to Viserys' claim. In fact, it is confirmed that Daemon was one of Viserys' fiercest supporters in 101 and before the Great Council, so it is very unlikely that he presented his own claim to the council. Daemon's plan was to become Viserys' Heir Presumptive after his brother had become king.

Archmaester Vaegon's claim may have been discussed at least, but I doubt he would have presented it to the council. Assuming he was still alive at this point - if so, he most likely remained at Oldtown. But my guess is that all of Jaehaerys' children besides Princess Saera - who most likely was neither invited nor willing to come to present herself to the Great Council - were already dead by this point. Princess Alyssa, too, since she was Jaehaerys' eldest surviving child, older than both Prince Aemon and Prince Baelon.

Prince Aegon does not have to be dead yet during the reign of Viserys I. He can also just be a very obscure guy Gyldayn talks about in a paragraph of his own without ever mentioning him in regards to the politics of the Realm. Right now he is the best (actually the only) candidate for that obscure Targaryen 'Ape Prince' Axell Florent mentions in ADwD - the one who had a son that died, and thereafter chose to dress an ape in his son's clothing and offer him in marriage to the daughters of various lords.

Aegon could easily have been a dragonrider, by the way, considering that we have no clue who rode Dreamfyre before Helaena inherited her.

Rodrik Arryn, the father of Aemma, could have had a second wife after Daella's death or a first wife prior to Daella from whose son Jeyne Arryn is descended. Jeyne could easily be a descendant of a younger brother of Aemma's, though, since Aemma most likely gave up all claims to the Eyrie when she married the eldest son of Baelon Targaryen, then the Prince of Dragonstone. Apparently that marriage took place in 93 AC, a year after Baelon was named Prince of Dragonstone and was most likely arranged hastily to bind the Targaryen-Arryns and the Vale to Baelon/Viserys (Daemon's marriage to Rhea Royce in 97 AC shows a similar trend) to counter the fact that Princess Rhaenys had two great houses on her side (the Velaryons and the Baratheons) whereas Baelon had no marriage bond connecting him to a great house.

It seems that Jeyne Arryn died without issue, by the way, considering that the violent death of the regent Corwyn Corbray (then husband of Rhaena Targaryen) occurred before the walls of Runestone during a parley in the same year Jeyne Arryn died of an illness in Gulltown. This suggests that Lady Jeyne's death caused a succession crisis in the Vale with various major houses perhaps supporting several different distant Arryn cousins in the struggle for the Eyrie. If Jeyne was an only child, and her father and/or Lord Rodrik Arryn were only children as well, then the Arryn next in line might go back to the six sons of Hubert Arryn, the Arryn succeeding to the Vale after Jonos the Kinslayer slew his brother Ronnel and all his children, and was then in turn slain himself.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

This was a very interesting question back when TWoIaF first came out.

The nine lesser claimants all have to be descendants of Aerea and Rhalla Targaryen, or descendants of Princess Rhaena from a speculative third marriage (she was young enough to take a third husband after Maegor's early demise), or (unlikely) descendants of a (legitimized) bastard branch of House Targaryen we know as of yet nothing about.

How do we know that? Because Ran confirmed that Princess Rhaenys did not present her own claim nor the claim of her daughter Laena to the assembled lords. Instead, she and Corlys put all their prestige and power into pushing Laenor Velaryon's claim.

They might not have spoken for themselves but Rhaenys and Laena were both two of the 11 claimants. It says as much in the Princess and the Dragon.

The annals of the Great Council of 101 were brought forth and examined, and note was made of which lords had spoken for Viserys, and which for Rhaenys, Laena, or Laenor.

 

[Lord Varys]

They might not have spoken for themselves but Rhaenys and Laena were both two of the 11 claimants. It says as much in the Princess and the Dragon.

The annals of the Great Council of 101 were brought forth and examined, and note was made of which lords had spoken for Viserys, and which for Rhaenys, Laena, or Laenor.

 

Well, Ran has stated that Rhaenys and Corlys only presented one claimant to the Great Council. Considering that Ran and Linda should have much more detailed notes on the Great Council than we have, I'd either consider this a small continuity error or part of preliminary deliberations. The big decision was then the choice between Laenor and Viserys.

And Rhaenys' claim would, of course, be definitely discussed in all that considering that Laenor's claim came through Rhaenys - only if his mother did not claim the throne for herself could Laenor even make a claim.

But then, speaking for a claimant does not necessarily mean that such a claim is actually seriously discussed.

The question into what houses Aerea and Rhalla (and possibly Rhaena, in a third marriage) might have married into is a much more interesting question, I think.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Alyssa Targaryen, oldest living child of Jaehaerys and mother of Viserys.

Since she's not mentioned as having been around to care for Jaehaerys I on his deathbed, nor ever mentioned during the reign of Viserys I, I'd say chances are quite high that she was already dead at this point.

 

Daemon Targaryen, younger brother of Viserys

His claim would be non existent due to the fact that his older brother was presenting his claims. And Daemon has been stated to have supported Viserys' claim, so presumably, he did not press his own..

 

Rhanerya Taragaryen, baby daughter of Viserys

Same here. Viserys was the one with a claim above both Daemon and Rhaenyra.. No sense in arguing for her claim.

 

 

Daella Targaryen: Though the wiki states that her daughter Aemma was an only child I think this must be a mistake as why would the young Jeyne be ruler of the Vale in 101 when Aemma was still alive?* And why was the Jeyne the only female Regent?

Jeyne was Rhaenyra's cousin, but that doesn't mean she was the daughter of a sibling of Aemma's... she could have been more distantly related, as well. Or she was the child of a half-sibling of Aemma's.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Since she's not mentioned as having been around to care for Jaehaerys I on his deathbed, nor ever mentioned during the reign of Viserys I, I'd say chances are quite high that she was already dead at this point.

Possibly, but you would have to think that some of Jaehaerys kids outlived him.  Even 3/4 is still a small number.

His claim would be non existent due to the fact that his older brother was presenting his claims. And Daemon has been stated to have supported Viserys' claim, so presumably, he did not press his own..

 

Same here. Viserys was the one with a claim above both Daemon and Rhaenyra.. No sense in arguing for her claim.

 

Honestly, I think you and Lord Varys have got the wrong idea here. Initially the claimants are decided either by the Small  Council or maybe a petition by some Lord of the realm, that is why we hear of claimants like Vaella (too young to claim themselves), Maester Aemon (no interest in becoming King) and Rhaenys and Laena(supporting Laenors claim) being considered.

 

So it would go something like this:

• Claimants decided by the Council(Lords of the realm)
• They, or their supporters, put forward their case or drop out
• Great Council whittles down the canidates
• Makes their decision

 

It is possible that Daemon had no claim because of his brother but then why would both Rhaenys and Laena be considered. Laenor makes sense because he is the oldest male of Aemon's branch but there is no reason that two females from Aemons branch are considered.

[Lord Varys]

Possibly, but you would have to think that some of Jaehaerys kids outlived him.  Even 3/4 is still a small number.

Honestly, I think you and Lord Varys have got the wrong idea here. Initially the claimants are decided either by the Small  Council or maybe a petition by some Lord of the realm, that is why we hear of claimants like Vaella (too young to claim themselves), Maester Aemon (no interest in becoming King) and Rhaenys and Laena(supporting Laenors claim) being considered.

 

So it would go something like this:

• Claimants decided by the Council(Lords of the realm)
• They, or their supporters, put forward their case or drop out
• Great Council whittles down the canidates
• Makes their decision

 

It is possible that Daemon had no claim because of his brother but then why would both Rhaenys and Laena be considered. Laenor makes sense because he is the oldest male of Aemon's branch but there is no reason that two females from Aemons branch are considered.

We know that some of Jaehaerys' children were still alive during the anniversary tourney of 98 AC. The known would include Prince Baelon, Princess Gael. Perhaps Archmaester Vaegon and Princess Alyssa was also still around at that time, perhaps not. We can safely say that Prince Aemon, Princess Daella, and Septa Maegelle were already dead at this point since we have the years of death for each of them (92 AC, 82 AC, and 96 AC, respectively). I'd assume Princess Viserra was also already dead in 98 AC, considering the fact that she most likely died in her teens.

In light of the fact that Baelon, Gael, and Alysanne all died between 98 AC and 101 AC it might be that Vaegon also died in that time. And honestly, I consider it very likely that Princess Alyssa died in childbirth delivering her third son, Prince Aegon.

As to the deliberations of the Great Council:

If 233 AC is any indication then claims are discussed by seniority. Vaella and Maegor are of the elder branches of House Targaryen, being King Maekar's grandchildren by his elder sons, and their claims are discussed first. Afterwards comes the claim of Prince Aegon which is then sort of covertly challenged by the additional discussion of the claim of Maester Aemon who was present at the council but did not put forth his claim.

If that was the modus operandi back in 101 AC then it makes sense to assume that 'the nine lesser claimants' weren't descendants of Jaehaerys and Alysanne and thus scions of the younger branch of House Targaryen, but of the elder line of Aenys I, through Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena by Aerea and Rhalla or solely through Princess Rhaena.

Depending how good or bad relations were between Rhaena and her daughters and their descendants and Jaehaerys/Alysanne and their children later in life, it may have been a good moment to hammer home the fact that no one in the Realm thought they claims to the Iron Throne were good despite the fact that they descended from Aenys I and Aegon I through the elder line.

The claims of Rhaenyra and Rhaenys' children would all always discussed by means of the claims of their parents. You could not possibly assess Rhaenyra's or Laenor/Laena's claims without mentioning that they inherited their claims from their parents.

In that sense I'm pretty sure that Rhaenys' claim was sort of prominently discussed but she did not make a bid for the Iron Throne herself during the Great Council. She and Corlys thought Laenor had the best shot and threw all their weight behind him. Perhaps some people tried to weaken the Velaryon faction and therefore suggested Laena as a possible claimant, too, but I'd not bet on that.

Perhaps some of Jaehaerys' children were considered as well if they were still alive despite my assumptions. Then only Vaegon would have had a good shot. Alyssa claiming the throne for herself would cause trouble for Viserys, and we know Daemon did not make a bid for the throne.

The majority of the lesser claimants must have been descendants of Aerea and Rhalla and possibly Rhaena's from a third marriage. But considering the number of them there might have been another branch of legitimized Targaryen bastards (say, descendants of Aenys I we don't know anything about as of yet) considering that there shouldn't have been so many competing claimants among the children and grandchildren of Aerea and Rhalla.