[Marcus]

Hi! Our map has just been released to me, and I'm in the process of uploading screenshots. I made a second topic so we could still discuss units in the like in the main topic, and have this one devoted solely to the map.

First of all, I want your focus on the locations and settlement placing. Something in the wrong spot? Did we miss a key settlement? Etc. Same goes for mountains and rivers. Once this is complete we can focus on resources on the map, then developing the key settlements.

Note from our map guy, chewietobbacca:
-Certain provinces and towns are not specifically mapped anywhere on the official maps from GRRM. Many of these locations are inferred from the readings, concordance, and from independent map sources. These locations are: Sweetport Sound (House Sunglass), Stone Hedge (House Bracken), Raventree Hill (House Blackwood), Darry (House Darry), Horn Hill (House Tarly), The Rills (House Ryswell), Kinghouse (House Magnar), Driftwood Hall (House Stane), Deepdown (House Crowl), Blackmont (House Blackmont), Antlers (House Buckwell), Pebbleton (House Merlyn), and Hammerhorn (House Goodbrother). The big unknown is Sweetport Sound.
-Keep in mind that this map is sized 170 x 400. For comparison, the vanilla M2TW map is 295 x 189.
-Unit travel distances/speeds can be altered for the campaign map. Keep that in mind when judging settlement ranges.
-Many provinces may have roads removed. Current suggestions are to include only roads mapped (such as Kingsroad, etc.).
Credit:chewietobbacca.

Screenshots to follow.

Edit: Okay, here's the link. Map Shots You'll have to browse through the album, there's 51 pics. The first five or so show the snowline and the Wall during the winter. I expect the snowline will have to be changed. Also, the radar map in the corner is wrong, so try and ignore it. All the shots are zoomed out so I could get the whole map in (still took 50...heh) If you need a closeup of an area, post here.

So... let the critiquing begin.

This post has been edited by Marcus: 05 January 2007 - 01:36 PM

[Ran]

Image 39:

Karhold - I'd like to see the river going south/southeast, as per the U.K. ASoS and GoO maps, as we have it at Westeros.org's map. Karhold would be on the eastern bank, then.


Image 38:

Hornwood -- I think I'd push the castle further south, perhaps half the distance from the castle to the border of the user interface in that picture. Just to get it a bit closer to White Harbor. Also maybe push it a little west, nearer to the White Knife, which would help explain how Manderly was able to quickly move troops there during his fight with the Bastard of Bolton. OTOH, too far west and probably it's too close to Winterfell.

Would it be possible to give us an image that gives us a sense of how Hornwood, Winterfell, the Dreadfort, and White Harbor are all related to one another?

Image 35:

Bodies of water: Again, I prefer the U.K./GoO/Westeros placing of the lakes, rather than that of the U.S. edition. In the former, there are two small lakes west of the large lake Torrhen's Square is associated with, and they are linked together by a river.

Image 31:

Greywater Watch - Greywater needs to definitely be some kind of small island location. You certainly can't make it move around, but at least you can get that close to it. ;)

Miscellaneous
----------------

Are there castles called 'The Frostfangs' and 'The Haunted Forest'? I couldn't quite tell, but there shouldn't be. Those are just names for geographical type things, not for castles/villages/what have you.

The Fist of the First Men would be a good addition, although whether you can have an abandoned castle waiting for its first taker, we don't know...

[Merentha]

Does Moat Cailin control the only route up to the north? I can't quite tell from the picture.

[Viktor Bazzleschenko]

Ran, on Jan 5 2007, 11.20, said:

Miscellaneous
----------------

Are there castles called 'The Frostfangs' and 'The Haunted Forest'? I couldn't quite tell, but there shouldn't be. Those are just names for geographical type things, not for castles/villages/what have you.

The Fist of the First Men would be a good addition, although whether you can have an abandoned castle waiting for its first taker, we don't know...

I assume that they needed settlements for the Wildlings or else they couldn't function as a faction. However, they have some better alternatives than "Frostfangs". There is a one Wildling "city" called Hardhome, which you can find on Ran's map here. Plus, Fist of the First Men could be a lightly guarded wildling rebel castle (to replicate the abandoned castle theme Ran describes) and Craster's Keep, which would also be rebel. That would mean the Wildlings would start only holding Hardhome, but that's fine -- Scotland, Denmark and Russia all start Vanilla with only one province. They'd conquer the Fist and Craster quickly enough.

I have a suggestion for King's Landing. Make it two settlements -- a city, King's Landing, and a Castle, the Red Keep, right next to each other (though I don't know if two settlements can actually be placed right next to each other on the map -- they would have to be touching for this to make sense).

This plays up the importance of its as a location and gives Joffrey Baratheon at least a fighting chance (the bastard).

[Merentha]

Link doesn't work.

[Marcus]

@ Marentha. Yes, The river to the west is uncrossable, so an army would have to pass relatively close on the east to pass Moat Cailin. We may give them a watchtower...

Hardhome is in the images, if you look.

No, Two cities cannot be close together. If you look at the Twins, that's about the best we can do, maybe a tad closer.

@Ran. I uploaded two images (51, 52) That show White Harbour in perspective. I had to scroll down for the second one, so just match the bridges and rivers up to get a feel for the distance.

Edit: My link doesn't work?...Hmm...

This post has been edited by Marcus: 05 January 2007 - 02:51 PM

[Viktor Bazzleschenko]

Sorry about the non-functioning link. Go to this page and click on Westeros (Color Version).

ETA: Marcus, Merentha was referring to my link, not yours -- which is fine.

This post has been edited by Ser Bazzlebane: 05 January 2007 - 02:52 PM

[Ran]

Bazzlebane,

I'd say you could have Whitetree as a settlement. Hardhome is already on the map -- I noticed that in one of the images. And there's Thenn, of course. If other settlements have to be created, I'd suggest naming them after the various wildling clans we meet -- 'Hornfoot Village', 'Walrus Men Village', and so on.

[Marcus]

I believe Hardhome, the Fist and Thenn should be sufficient. Beyond the Wall isn't really meant for conquer so it shouldn't have too many. Maybe Craster's, and put a fort in the Frostfangs, but other than that...

[Merentha]

How are you handling the Neck? Is it completely impassible except for the Causeway? What about Robb's plan to contact Howland Reed to send some troops to attack from the north?

As I understand it, MC shouldn't just dominate the region, it should completely and utterly stop all northern passage.

Edit: And that color map is excellent.

Edi2: If you do use that map, it looks like there is a relative lack of cities to castles, so maybe a few of the smaller holdfast-type castles could be converted to small towns?

This post has been edited by Merentha: 05 January 2007 - 03:08 PM

[Maester Yobjascz]

Everything looks excellent, though I agree with Merentha's concerns...

Great job Chewie! :thumbsup:

This post has been edited by Maester Yobjascz: 05 January 2007 - 03:07 PM

[Marcus]

Just looked ingame. Moat Cailin is raised up from the surrounding territory and it's impossible to pass without taking the settlement, unless you sail to White Harbour or around to Barrowton (sp)

What about Howland?

[Merentha]

Marcus, on Jan 5 2007, 15.07, said:

Just looked ingame. Moat Cailin is raised up from the surrounding territory and it's impossible to pass without taking the settlement, unless you sail to White Harbour or around to Barrowton (sp)

What about Howland?

Nice, that sounds good.

Robb had a plan to attack MC that involved having (iirc) the Greatjon make a feigned attack up the Causeway while he led men, guided by Reed's Crannogmen, through the Neck and down the Causeway from the north, thus attacking MC from both sides, including the much weaker northern section.

This post has been edited by Merentha: 05 January 2007 - 03:11 PM

[Marcus]

Greywater should be North of Moat Cailin? Or are you saying there needs to be another way through?

[Xray the Enforcer]

Marcus, on Jan 5 2007, 15.00, said:

I believe Hardhome, the Fist and Thenn should be sufficient. Beyond the Wall isn't really meant for conquer so it shouldn't have too many. Maybe Craster's, and put a fort in the Frostfangs, but other than that...

Agreed, if I understand things properly. Even if the wildlings themselves are spread out, as a faction we shouldn't need more than 3 or 4 gathering places (and I'm a lazy sod: I don't want to manage every little piss-pot circle of huts if I play the faction). I think Craster's Keep would be a good addition, actually. It's one of the last "friendly" places for the Night's Watch, and therefore would add a bit of complexity to any campaigns in the area. (plus a place to rest/regroup.)

[Maester Yobjascz]

I noticed this on first glance through the maps, but wanted to check before I complained... :)

I'm confused as to the positioning of the Mountains of the Moon, the Bloody Gate, and the Eyrie in the Vale. My understanding was that the Bloody Gate marked the gateway to the Vale. The Mountains of the Moon was the main waycastle at the base of the Eyrie, and the Eyrie itself on a mountain-top.

Now, in this map , the Eyrie and the Bloody Gate are positioned where I'd expect to find them, but the Mountains of the Moon appear to be in a valley *outside* the Vale, and very far from the Eyrie...

Now, I may be completely off my rocker here, misreading maps, confusing names, and not correctly remembering the books. Can someone help me here?

Thanks!

-----------------

I don't know if this is possible within the mechanics of the game system, but one solution would be for the swamps surrounding Moat Cailin to be impassable *unless* you had Howland Reed as in your group. Another option would be to make the swamps *very* hard and slow going, with significant movement and combat bonuses for Crannogmen units. The bonuses should be large enough to allow a few Crannogmen units to near-wipe out entire armies that try to slog through the neck. The only 'safe' route for normal units would be *through* Moat Cailin, which should be able to be very well defended *from the south* by ranged units.

Once again, I don't know if the coding allows these tricks. If not, we might need to come up with other ways to make the Neck work out right...

This post has been edited by Maester Yobjascz: 05 January 2007 - 03:21 PM

[Viktor Bazzleschenko]

Marcus, on Jan 5 2007, 12.00, said:

I believe Hardhome, the Fist and Thenn should be sufficient. Beyond the Wall isn't really meant for conquer so it shouldn't have too many. Maybe Craster's, and put a fort in the Frostfangs, but other than that...

Craster's Keep (as a Rebel Settlement) would be a good touch because it is such an important story element in the books. Too bad MII doesn't have the Shrieking Women units like Rome: Total War -- one unit of Shrieking Women with a Captain named Craster would have been very amusing.

[Merentha]

Marcus, on Jan 5 2007, 15.12, said:

Greywater should be North of Moat Cailin? Or are you saying there needs to be another way through?

No, Greywater is in the right place. Ah, hell, its probably easier to just ignore that whole plan Robb had and leave it like it is.

Re: The mountains of the moon, I think that settlement is there to name the mountains as a whole, I don't know it is intended to produce anything.

Edit: If the ideas Maester Y has are possible, then that seems acceptible.

This post has been edited by Merentha: 05 January 2007 - 03:25 PM

[Xray the Enforcer]

Ser Bazzlebane, on Jan 5 2007, 15.22, said:

Too bad MII doesn't have the Shrieking Women units like Rome: Total War -- one unit of Shrieking Women with a Captain named Craster would have been very amusing.

:lol:

[Marcus]

Ah. MY, you're thinking of the Gates of the Moon. Perhaps they should have been included below the Eyrie. The "Mountains" of the Moon is something our mapper put in for the Mountain Clans...however I think it should be tossed. They didn't really have any sort of castle at all.

Now, the first thing you proposed won't work. We can give Howland Reed bonuses, sure. But the other units wouldn't be able to "obtain" a swamp bonus by being in his stack. They'd have to be left behind.

Slow movement in the swamps may be possible, I don't know. But I like...someone's...previous idea about making greywater an island a la Venice so an invading army can't wipe out greywater then go for Moat Cailin. Perhaps Ran said that to me in IM...hmm