AFFC Reread Project - Cersei

[LadySoftheart]

Happy Ent, my issue with your idea that Varys set up Tywin to die is simply that Tyrion didn’t go to confront his father over Shae, but because Jaime finally told him the truth about Tysha, and THAT is what sent Tyrion off to find his father and confront about what he had had done to Tysha. I don’t think finding Shae in his father’s quarters improved Tyrion’s mood any, to be sure, but I feel like he might well have killed Tywin at that point anyway, particularly since it is Tysha whom he brings up in that bitter conversation before he kills Tywin.

Without Jaime’s ill-timed (for Tywin Lannister, anyway) bout of honesty regarding this incident from Tyrion’s past, there was no reason for Tyrion to go find his father and every reason to get the hell out of there. What would Varys have told him to make him go see Tywin (which your idea presupposes)? Would Varys have said something like “hey, and your girlfriend who betrayed you is also sleeping with your father� Because, I don’t know, I think Tyrion had already more or less written off Shae’s betrayal at that point. It’s Jaime, trying to right an old wrong, who really reveals how much Tywin wronged Tyrion; not Varys. And it was that terrible stress – NOT about Shae, who has already betrayed him terribly in court not only by lying about him but by mocking him, but about Tysha – that gets Tyrion, who has previous all through ACoK reflected that he cannot kill Cersei OR Joffrey because kinslayers are damned in the eyes of gods and men, to be so angry that he will kill his father.

So I don’t buy at all that Varys’s involvement extended to setting Tywin up to die at Tyrion’s hand. I really doubt he knew that a) Tysha was Tyrion’s total sore spot and what Tywin had done (he’s a very clever man who knows many secrets, but he’s not omniscient!); Jaime would reveal this wrong to Tyrion at just that critical moment; c) Tyrion would react the way he did.

[Happy Ent]

So I don’t buy at all that Varys’s involvement extended to setting Tywin up to die at Tyrion’s hand. I really doubt he knew that a) Tysha was Tyrion’s total sore spot and what Tywin had done (he’s a very clever man who knows many secrets, but he’s not omniscient!); Jaime would reveal this wrong to Tyrion at just that critical moment; c) Tyrion would react the way he did.

As you say, there is no way Varys could know that. His plan didn't work (at least not as planned). His plan was to enrage Tyrion's jalousy over Shae. That's the first thing Varys learns about Tyrion. Whether it would have worked or not is completely beyond the point. The question is if Varys could have believed it would work. He certainly does everything to make it work.

Or do you think Varys spends chapter after chapter facilitating the Tyrion/Shae relationship just because he is a nice buddy? Of course not.

Varys must have laughed himself silly when he overheard the Tysha confession. All his careful planning was suddenly superfluous! But he didn't have time (nor reason) to run back and pull Shae out of the room again.

Tyrion, by the way, confirms to us that the original plan would have worked. "That would have hurt me once, when I still felt pain," or something like that, when he sees Shae. I am sure it would have worked. But (again): my POV is beside the point. Varys's POV is the only relevant one.

I really think we should abandon this discussion (or move it to another thread) because, from experience, it's a thread killer.

[LadySoftheart]

Varys must have laughed himself silly when he overheard the Tysha confession. All his careful planning was suddenly superfluous! But he didn't have time (nor reason) to run back and pull Shae out of the room again.

Heh! Yes, certainly - let's talk about Cersei again instead I just want to say that while I definitely agree that Varys was using Tyrion's connection to Shae, I still will never believe that he planned for Tyrion to kill his father - I don't think anyone could have known how Tyrion would react, least of all Tyrion himself.

Errr, so back to Cersei and the fact that no one answered my question - IS she sleeping with Osmund Kettleblack, or is it all a malicious lie told by Tyrion and based on her flirtation? (I.e. Did she ever have to deliver on those promises?) Hmmm!

[Reposado]

edited out comment about varys because i agree this isn't raelly the best place for this topic

[Jon Targaryen]

It is said the Iron Throne cuts those that are not worthy to sit upon it. That could have some bearing on the dream.

Cersei respects Tywin a great deal.

Tytos died when Cersei was 1 year old. So thirty-two years ago, when Tywin was 25. So Tywin was Hand before he was Lord of Casterly Rock.

Tywin does have a reputation for never touching whores, at least to Cersei.

It was Cersei Shae made the deal with, not that there was much doubt.

[Ashara Stark]

Errr, so back to Cersei and the fact that no one answered my question - IS she sleeping with Osmund Kettleblack, or is it all a malicious lie told by Tyrion and based on her flirtation? (I.e. Did she ever have to deliver on those promises?) Hmmm!

Lady Softheart, I am not so sure about Osmund, but she admits having slept with Osney Kettleblack once, so I think she is likely to have slept with Osmund, too

[A wilding]

It is unlikely that Cersei has already slept with Osmund at this point (she only slept with Osney as payment for committing a murder for her). Varys specifically says in ASoS that she has not slept with him. As to whether she sleeps with him later in AFfC ... that is for discussion on later chapters.

[Elgernon]

my guess is that Tyrion tells Jamie about Cersei sleeping around in a kind of you hurt me i hurt you ploy. Tyrion knows about Lancel and then adds increasingly less likely characters (Osmond, Moon Boy) after knowing that this will haunt Jamie for weeks.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

Do you think Tyrion would have killed Tywin even if he had not talked to Tyrion in such a taunting way? I'm thinking specifically of this bit of conversation:

"Oh, yes. Your first whore."

Tyrion took aim at his father's chest. "The next time you say that word, I will kill you."

(...)

"On her way where?"

"Wherever whores go."

Tyrion's finger clenched.

As far as I've understood it, Tyrion goes to Lord Tywin's chambers to learn of Tysha's whereabouts, not necessarily to kill his father. It is Tywin's complete lack of respect for his son, together with his despise for Tyrion's loved one, that makes Tyrion pull the trigger. And the fact that a Lannister always pays his debts.

[Happy Ent]

Smashing chapter! This was one of the three chapters that have been available pre-release on Martin's website, so I have read it a gazillion times now. I loved it from the first instance and still think it's great.

Cersei is a bit more focussed than in her first chapter, but her thoughts still jump all over the place. Her trip with Tommen is great. Within a few paragraphs she manages to think about her hairdo and gown, "Black had never been a happy color on her. With her fair skin, it made her look half a corpse herself," Jocelyn Swift's foolishness, "If the gods could weep, they would have wept for your brother," Tommen's sable mantle and his meekness, "Joffrey would have argued," his waning plumpness (to be taken up with the maesters) an his crown (to be taken up with the goldsmiths). Oh, and Myrcella is in the hands of the Dornishmen.

And it all makes complete sense to me. A great character portrait, even though Martin has no sympathy for her, even less than for Theon.

Apart from the fascinating internal monologue of Cersei. most of the plots for the KL chapters are set in motion in this chapter. Qyburn get's his hardware, the Myrish swamp ingratiates herself with the queen, and Mace Tyrell blunders and is refused. Cersei is (again) no complete fool—Ser Kevan confirms that Mace Tyrell as Hand would have been a fool's move. But Cersei is too paranoid to know when to stop. She follows her perfectly sensible political instincts too far. When Kevan gives her very good advice, she doesn't even hear him:

"Mathis Rowan is sensible, prudent, well-liked," her uncle went on, oblivious. "Randyll Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm. A poor Hand for peacetime, but with Tywin dead there's no better man to finish this war. Lord Tyrell cannot openly take offense if you choose one of his own bannermen as Hand. Both Tarly and Rowan are able men... and loyal. Name either one, and you make him yours. You will strengthen yourself and weaken Highgarden at the same time, yet Mace will likely thank you for it." He gave a shrug. "That is my counsel, take it or no. You may make Moon Boy your Hand for all I care. My brother is dead, woman. I am going to take him home."

Traitor, she thought. Turncloak. She wondered how much Mace Tyrell had given him. "You would abandon your king when he needs you most," she told him. "You would abandon Tommen."

There is no indication that she even heard him say that his counsel is a ploy to weaken Highgarden. She probably stopped listening when Kevan suggested Rowan and Tyrell.

Crackpot theory: I assume that Tommen is going to kill his mother. There is a prophecy that is consistent with this idea; moreover, this chapter sets up the story arc perfectly for it. Cersei is troubled by Tommen's meekness. "Joffrey was never easy to cow." During the next many chapters, the Tommen–Cersei relationship will change. Tommen will become more assertive about a number of topics, including who should be master-of-arms, and beets. In this book, Cersei still has him cowed. but the conflict is there, and Marge does everything she can to escalate it.

Tywin starts smelling more than he should. Very weak evidence in favour of him having been poisoned with Widow's Blood. Something is wrong with him. His armour, by the way, is the same that he wore when facing Bolton's foot in Game. Sunburst roundels and prancing lions on the shoulders.

Qyburn "found" a coin. I see conspiracies everywhere, so I guess Varys gave him a pretty good hint where to find it. I don't know how much Varys "plays" the ex-maester; I assume Qyburn is a piece rather than a player.

Timeline: This happens a day or two after the last Cersei chapter. I would say two days: Cersei cannot have "asked" (or reasonably have pretended to ask) Gyles Rosby "yesterday" if Tywin wasn't deat yet. Jaime hasn't slept since Tywin was alive.

Arboreal perspective: The High Septon has a weirwood staff, gratuitously ornamented with a crystal orb. As if the staff itself weren't enough!

[A wilding]

Cersei bullies Tommen while worrying about his meekness. Classic dysfunctional mother unable to see that she is the problem stuff.

Cersei remembers Tywin telling Jaime that love is useless. Quite apart from the fact that he is totally wrong about it being no use for keeping you warm on a cold night , this seems odd coming from the man who so notoriously loved his wife. I would guess he said it out of grief and bitterness after her death.

The maid Senelle is present when Qyburn tells Cersei about the coin (though Cersei seems hardly aware of it). This becomes relevant later.

Cersei sees that Kevan is not drinking at their dinner, but typically she gets the reason wrong - he is almost certainly abstaining to keep a clear head for the discussion to come.

Kevan is a born second in command. He sees the situation clearly and gives Cersei solid advice (which as HA says she does not even listen to properly). However he lacks the drive, initiative and ruthlessness to push Cersei aside and take control of the realm himself, something that Tywin or Tyrion would have certainly done in his place. This is despite the fact that he realises Cersei is going to be a disaster for both the Lannisters and for Westeros.

The end of this chapter, with the red drops dripping from Kevan's beard, has to be foreshadowing. Reading it, I decided that Kevan would die in AFfC. I now assume that in failing to take Kevan's advice, Cersei has somehow doomed him to death at some future point in the story.

[Happy Ent]

Cersei remembers Tywin telling Jaime that love is useless. Quite apart from the fact that he is totally wrong about it being no use for keeping you warm on a cold night , this seems odd coming from the man who so notoriously loved his wife. I would guess he said it out of grief and bitterness after her death.

Good catch! Tywin tells Jaime this when Jaime was no older than Tommen. I think the twins were 8 or 9 when Tyrion was born (and

Joanna died). Fits very well!

The maid Senelle is present when Qyburn tells Cersei about the coin (though Cersei seems hardly aware of it). This becomes relevant later.

Could you spell that out for me?

The end of this chapter, with the red drops dripping from Kevan's beard, has to be foreshadowing.

And the beginning of that chapter: "A cold rain was falling, turning the walls and ramparts of the Red Keep dark as blood." Nice symmetry.

But Kevan, indeed, looks like a lion in this scene: close-cropped yellow beard, jutting chin, and blood dripping from it.

[A wilding]

IIRC Senelle is later outed by Lady Merryweather (perhaps falsely) as a Tyrell spy. When we get to that chapter I am going to have a think about the implications of that.

Good thought that the red drips might be foreshadowing of Kevan killing or (metaphorically I assume ) eating something. I shall think about that too.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yes, it is a great chapter. We get first of many Cersei terrorizing Tommen scenes. Tommen didn't have many chances of growing up normal, poor kid. We also get to see for the first time that Cersei admired Joffrey, but she despises Tommen as "weak". Enough said.

The scene with High Septon is amusing when we know what is going to happen next. She actually has poor guy killed only because Tyrion gave him this post, and makes way for the new High Septon who will be her undoing.

Tywin is starting th stink. I don't think it has anything to do with widow's blood, but who knows?

Cersei is remembering Tywin and we see how really wretched parent he was. "You cannot eat love, nor buy a horse with it, nor warm your halls on a cold night" . There is an answer which immediately comes to mind: "But it sometimes does stop a crossbow bolt"

Another ironical quotation is: "A thousand years from now, when the maesters write about this time, you shall be remembered only as Queen Cersei's sire." Probably right, since Cersei's reign is so great debacle, that it will likely be remembered thousand years from now.

Yes, Kevan gives her good advice and she doesn't even want to hear him.

Cersei doesn't allow Lollys bastard to be named Tywin. Another simple decision which leads to unforeseen disaster. Cersei is not only paranoid, but also unlucky

Qyburn finds the coin. I wonder if Varys really left it there or is he really in league with Varys? We just know to little to decide. Cersei

[rpthomps]

Crackpot theory: I assume that Tommen is going to kill his mother. There is a prophecy that is consistent with this idea;

What prophecy is that? The only prophecy I know of is Cersei getting strangled by the Valoqar. Was Jaime born first? I somehow read that he wasn't. I don't think it would be Tyrion. Too obvious a connection.

Arboreal perspective: The High Septon has a weirwood staff, gratuitously ornamented with a crystal orb. As if the staff itself weren't enough!

I thought the staff itself was an interesting nod to the old gods. Much like how christianity has strong pagan roots, perhaps the religion of the seven also lends itself to much influence from the old gods.

A necessary chapter on the whole, it’s important because it so well shares how paranoid and controlling Cersei is. And both are growing and feeding upon one another. Her paranoia and her vanity are very apparent as she remembers her son’s death but this thought is supplanted by her thoughts of attire and how she looks. I wonder how Tommen will turn out. He certainly DOES seem to be rebelling at a much too early age. Cersei’s increasing protection (from groundless fears) and Margaery’s whisperings don’t bode well into shaping a STRONG king. I fear he will be a clone of Cersei, ironically making decisions to displease his mother.

Observations:

Lanbert Turnberry is the second man to wear a patch over his eye, even though he has TWO functioning eyes. Euron being the other. Not sure why…

Qyburn’s mouth is surrounded by laugh lines. Why would this be? Was his life once full of joy? Is he THAT insane that he enjoys the pain of others? Does he laugh in the dungeons?

Page 110 – who cast the spell that thickened the manticore poison? Sarella? Is that why she is in Oldtown, to learn magic?

Page 100 – Gregor is plagued by headaches – could he be afflicted with gigantism?

[Reposado]

So I don’t buy at all that Varys’s involvement extended to setting Tywin up to die at Tyrion’s hand. I really doubt he knew that a) Tysha was Tyrion’s total sore spot and what Tywin had done (he’s a very clever man who knows many secrets, but he’s not omniscient!); Jaime would reveal this wrong to Tyrion at just that critical moment; c) Tyrion would react the way he did.

in addition, there's no way he could have known that tyrion would capable of killing tywin. tyrion climbed those stairs unarmed. he couldn't have knwon tywin would be vulnerable at the privy at that moment, givingtyrion time to mov ethe chest get down the crossbow, set it before tywin became aware of him.

[Happy Ent]

in addition, there's no way he could have known that tyrion would capable of killing tywin. tyrion climbed those stairs unarmed. he couldn't have knwon tywin would be vulnerable at the privy at that moment, givingtyrion time to mov ethe chest get down the crossbow, set it before tywin became aware of him.

(I still would prefer to not have this discussion)

The theory makes the following assumptions:

• Tywin was poisoned with Widow's Blood, the same poison that Tyrion used on Cersei in Clash. It glues, if the author is to be believed, the victim to the privy shaft.
  
• "Somebody had placed a chest under the crossbow" or something like that, set up perfectly for Tyrion to climb up. (Read the chapter.) There is also, you may notice, a dagger helpfully placed next to Shae's bed (though Tyrion doesn't use it.) It's all set up perfectly.
  

[Reposado]

(I still would prefer to not have this discussion)

The theory makes the following assumptions:

• Tywin was poisoned with Widow's Blood, the same poison that Tyrion used on Cersei in Clash. It glues, if the author is to be believed, the victim to the privy shaft.
  
  
• "Somebody had placed a chest under the crossbow" or something like that, set up perfectly for Tyrion to climb up. (Read the chapter.) There is also, you may notice, a dagger helpfully placed next to Shae's bed (though Tyrion doesn't use it.) It's all set up perfectly.
  

hmm i guess it's possible, and better established than a lot of the theories floating around. but i think it's stretching it a bit. i think it's a bit too much to assume, and even granting those assumptions it's quite a big risk which varys was betting is life on.

but im definately willing to let this point rest until adwd.

[Poor Fellow]

Kevan is a born second in command. He sees the situation clearly and gives Cersei solid advice (which as HA says she does not even listen to properly). However he lacks the drive, initiative and ruthlessness to push Cersei aside and take control of the realm himself, something that Tywin or Tyrion would have certainly done in his place. This is despite the fact that he realises Cersei is going to be a disaster for both the Lannisters and for Westeros.

I found Kevan to be an extremely (and surprisingly) sympathetic character in the first two Cersei chapters. It is clear that he is both a genuinely loyal and wise person, and also a shrewd man who has made contingency plans. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if Cersei and Myrcella die (which seems virtually certain to happen), doesn't Kevan get the Rock? Tommen is king, he can't hold the Rock too. Jaime is Kingsguard, he can't inherit. Tyrion is condemned to death and has a price on his head. Unless and until Tyrion's name is cleared, the fate of the Lannisters as a Great House (as opposed to the Lannister/Baratheons on the Iron Throne) rests in Kevan's hands, doesn't it? Who else will defend Lannisport and the Searoad from the Ironborn? Or if things get ugly, from the Tyrells?

A Poor Fellow

[Happy Ent]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if Cersei and Myrcella die (which seems virtually certain to happen), doesn't Kevan get the Rock?

Correct. The order would go

1. Cersei

2. Tommen (may let it pass because of Kingship)

3. Myrcella

4. Kevan