It's sad because I rather liked the more nuanced Cersei who was still nice to Sansa when she was ruining her life.
Edited by Charles Phipps, 22 February 2008 - 01:39 PM.
AFFC Reread Project - Cersei
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cteresa
, Dec 04 2005 10:53 AM
186 replies to this topic
#181
Charles Phipps
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Posted 22 February 2008 - 01:37 PM
Cersei is a deeply mentally troubled woman with it now fairly clear that any madness in Joffrey came from her part rather than just the result of an incestuous birth. She's paranoid, megalomaniacal, and probably what we'd diagnose as bi-polar.
It's sad because I rather liked the more nuanced Cersei who was still nice to Sansa when she was ruining her life.
It's sad because I rather liked the more nuanced Cersei who was still nice to Sansa when she was ruining her life.
#182
Sibri
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Posted 10 June 2009 - 07:26 AM
Cteresa, on Dec 9 2005, 03.19, said:
Tywin has already started to smell very bad. Any theories?
I have no theories actually, just an association.
In "The Brothers Karamazov" by Dostoyevsky there is also a personage (Zossima), that smells very bad right after the death, and this fact becomes important and is discussed very lively by others.
Because of this association I've never thought about the possibility of the poisoning, only that it could be some kind of sign, but this board has opened my eyes :)
Quote
He did no one any harm, but "Why do they think him so saintly?" And that question alone, gradually repeated, gave rise at last to an intense, insatiable hatred of him.
That, I believe, was why many people were extremely delighted at the smell of decomposition which came so quickly, for not a day had passed since his death. At the same time there were some among those who had been hitherto reverently devoted to the elder, who were almost mortified and personally affronted by this incident. This was how the things happened.
As soon as signs of decomposition had begun to appear, the whole aspect of the monks betrayed their secret motives in entering the cell. They went in stayed a little while and hastened out to confirm the news to the crowd of other monks waiting outside. Some of the latter shook their heads mournfully, but others did not even care to conceal the delight which gleamed unmistakably in their malignant eyes. And now no one reproached them for it, no one raised his voice in protest, which was strange, for the majority of the monks had been devoted to the dead elder. But it seemed as though God had in this case let the minority get the upper hand for a time.
Visitors from outside, particularly of the educated class, soon went into the cell, too, with the same spying intent. Of the peasantry few went into the cell, though there were crowds of them at the gates of the hermitage. After three o'clock the rush of worldly visitors was greatly increased and this was no doubt owing to the shocking news. People were attracted who would not otherwise have come on that day and had not intended to come, and among them were some personages of high standing. But external decorum was still preserved and Father Paissy, with a stern face, continued firmly and distinctly reading aloud the Gospel, apparently not noticing what was taking place around him, though he had, in fact, observed something unusual long before. But at last the murmurs, first subdued but gradually louder and more confident, reached even him. "It shows God's judgement is not as man's," Father Paissy heard suddenly.
That, I believe, was why many people were extremely delighted at the smell of decomposition which came so quickly, for not a day had passed since his death. At the same time there were some among those who had been hitherto reverently devoted to the elder, who were almost mortified and personally affronted by this incident. This was how the things happened.
As soon as signs of decomposition had begun to appear, the whole aspect of the monks betrayed their secret motives in entering the cell. They went in stayed a little while and hastened out to confirm the news to the crowd of other monks waiting outside. Some of the latter shook their heads mournfully, but others did not even care to conceal the delight which gleamed unmistakably in their malignant eyes. And now no one reproached them for it, no one raised his voice in protest, which was strange, for the majority of the monks had been devoted to the dead elder. But it seemed as though God had in this case let the minority get the upper hand for a time.
Visitors from outside, particularly of the educated class, soon went into the cell, too, with the same spying intent. Of the peasantry few went into the cell, though there were crowds of them at the gates of the hermitage. After three o'clock the rush of worldly visitors was greatly increased and this was no doubt owing to the shocking news. People were attracted who would not otherwise have come on that day and had not intended to come, and among them were some personages of high standing. But external decorum was still preserved and Father Paissy, with a stern face, continued firmly and distinctly reading aloud the Gospel, apparently not noticing what was taking place around him, though he had, in fact, observed something unusual long before. But at last the murmurs, first subdued but gradually louder and more confident, reached even him. "It shows God's judgement is not as man's," Father Paissy heard suddenly.
#183
GiantSwan
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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:22 PM
Hi, I'm a long time lurker, and used to be an occasional poster, back in the EZboard and shortly before EZboard days, but I couldn't remember my old board name, so I just made a new one.
It recently occurred to me that the valonqar could be *any* younger brother, not just Cersei's younger brother. I was thinking that perhaps a Kettleback (which one is younger?) might be a likely candidate for choking the life from her.
Has anyone theorized much about other potential Cersei-cidal younger brothers?
My personal secret hope, however, is that Tommen is in fact the valonqar.
It recently occurred to me that the valonqar could be *any* younger brother, not just Cersei's younger brother. I was thinking that perhaps a Kettleback (which one is younger?) might be a likely candidate for choking the life from her.
Has anyone theorized much about other potential Cersei-cidal younger brothers?
My personal secret hope, however, is that Tommen is in fact the valonqar.
#184
Daemon23
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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:02 PM
GiantSwan, on 23 August 2009 - 02:22 PM, said:
Hi, I'm a long time lurker, and used to be an occasional poster, back in the EZboard and shortly before EZboard days, but I couldn't remember my old board name, so I just made a new one.
It recently occurred to me that the valonqar could be *any* younger brother, not just Cersei's younger brother. I was thinking that perhaps a Kettleback (which one is younger?) might be a likely candidate for choking the life from her.
Has anyone theorized much about other potential Cersei-cidal younger brothers?
My personal secret hope, however, is that Tommen is in fact the valonqar.
It recently occurred to me that the valonqar could be *any* younger brother, not just Cersei's younger brother. I was thinking that perhaps a Kettleback (which one is younger?) might be a likely candidate for choking the life from her.
Has anyone theorized much about other potential Cersei-cidal younger brothers?
My personal secret hope, however, is that Tommen is in fact the valonqar.
Another younger brother overlooked could be Tywin's brother Gerion, "lost at sea" but not necessarily gone for good. If he is merely hiding from Tywin, he may return now that Tywin is dead.
#185
Izria
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Posted 07 January 2010 - 12:04 PM
GiantSwan, on 23 August 2009 - 02:22 PM, said:
Hi, I'm a long time lurker, and used to be an occasional poster, back in the EZboard and shortly before EZboard days, but I couldn't remember my old board name, so I just made a new one.
It recently occurred to me that the valonqar could be *any* younger brother, not just Cersei's younger brother. I was thinking that perhaps a Kettleback (which one is younger?) might be a likely candidate for choking the life from her.
Has anyone theorized much about other potential Cersei-cidal younger brothers?
My personal secret hope, however, is that Tommen is in fact the valonqar.
It recently occurred to me that the valonqar could be *any* younger brother, not just Cersei's younger brother. I was thinking that perhaps a Kettleback (which one is younger?) might be a likely candidate for choking the life from her.
Has anyone theorized much about other potential Cersei-cidal younger brothers?
My personal secret hope, however, is that Tommen is in fact the valonqar.
I think the meaning of valonqar is the obvious: Cercei's younger brother. I always believed it to be Jaime because Tyrion's the obvious choice, she herself is sure it is him...which means he probably isn't since Cercei's wrong all the time
(just kidding here). Jaime is no longer in love with her, he realized how frantic and unfit for a ruler she is and also he finally sees that she's an awful person. This said it's completely possible that he may turn against her. But this is just my point of view
IMO, Tommen can't be the valonqar because Maggy the Frog said that all of Cercei's children will die before she does...if I'm not mistaken.
#186
jackyska
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Posted 19 December 2010 - 10:51 AM
Hi, I'm new to the board. I'm re-reading all the series and I found the re-read project very useful. I'm soory for my english but isn't my mother tongue.
I loved AFfC for the themes and the writing styles and I find the Cersei's POV a good challenge for GRRM because it's not easy to write about a, clearly, mad person.
It's intriguing how she become, in the latter part of the book, the double of Robert and her will to become the next Tywin.
[quote][size=2]It is Cersei's will and desires that provide the key to her psychosis. Unlike Tywin, she does not actually wish to rule the Seven Kingdoms. The process of ruling bores and irritates her. All Cersei is interested in is "winning" against any rivals, and "winning" means that her will prevails over anyone else's. [/size][/quote]
[quote][size=2]Cersei can't distinguish between reality itself and "what everyone acknowledges as true because the lion says so." She really thinks that if she replaces Lord Tywin, her will and desires will determine the reality of the world.[/size]/quote]
This is very true and a really good analysis of Cersei. This is what that makes her character outstanding in the re-reding. Her mental characterization is so well written.
But then there's the valonquar prophecy. At first I considered the prophecy a low point in GRRM writing, but now i believe there's something more. here's my thoughts.
Was it necessary for establish her actions? I don't think so.
Her motives were well established long before AFfC. She hates Tyrion for killing her mother, her father and her son. She hates the Tyrells because they want the power she has. She want to protect her children because is what any mother would do. I think we didn't really need a validation from a prophecy for things we already knew.
Was it necessary for the purpose of storytelling? Probably yes.
GRRM though a 5 years gap for a reason and in the case of the KL's story was that it's difficult to explain a quicly fall of a Kingdom that is (rather) pacified. He need a device to quicken Cersei's madness, therfore caos.
Why a prophecy?
As we know the main goal of Cersei is to have power, crushing her enemies and therefore to prove that her will determine reality. Obviously this is impossible and her actions are doomed by this very assumption. A prophecy is the representation of all the things she can't control. Her will is to having everything under her control (her life, her children, the kingdom) not for the use of that power but only to demonstrate she's capable. And if she is capable of overthrowing a prophecy she can do everything. This prophecy is a metaphor of all the things she has to overthrow for really be able to use her will above everything else but also this prophecy became an obsession.
It's interesting to notice that the more things go wrong the more Cersei is affected by this obsession. This obsession grows as her will is proven wrong by reality. And this freaks her out, forcing her to wrong decisions, because is a very detailed prophecy (marry the king, 3 kids, you're going to die by the hands of your little brother) that at this point she thinks it's true and she has to beat it. Leading her to more bad decisions and eventually her fall. This is the point of the prophecy and the plot around it.
She could have beat the prophecy easily long before it became an obsession but now it's the metaphor of her fears.
IMHO I don't think that the valonquar's prophecy was used by GRRM for explaining how Cersei will die but it's a beautiful device for her descent into madness.
For me it's not like the PwwP prohecy who fulfill a goal in the whole story. The Valonquar prophecy is known only to Cersei (until the end) and is too detailed to let space for another endings. I will not be surprised if the prophecy will not be fulfilled.
I loved AFfC for the themes and the writing styles and I find the Cersei's POV a good challenge for GRRM because it's not easy to write about a, clearly, mad person.
It's intriguing how she become, in the latter part of the book, the double of Robert and her will to become the next Tywin.
[quote][size=2]It is Cersei's will and desires that provide the key to her psychosis. Unlike Tywin, she does not actually wish to rule the Seven Kingdoms. The process of ruling bores and irritates her. All Cersei is interested in is "winning" against any rivals, and "winning" means that her will prevails over anyone else's. [/size][/quote]
[quote][size=2]Cersei can't distinguish between reality itself and "what everyone acknowledges as true because the lion says so." She really thinks that if she replaces Lord Tywin, her will and desires will determine the reality of the world.[/size]/quote]
This is very true and a really good analysis of Cersei. This is what that makes her character outstanding in the re-reding. Her mental characterization is so well written.
But then there's the valonquar prophecy. At first I considered the prophecy a low point in GRRM writing, but now i believe there's something more. here's my thoughts.
Was it necessary for establish her actions? I don't think so.
Her motives were well established long before AFfC. She hates Tyrion for killing her mother, her father and her son. She hates the Tyrells because they want the power she has. She want to protect her children because is what any mother would do. I think we didn't really need a validation from a prophecy for things we already knew.
Was it necessary for the purpose of storytelling? Probably yes.
GRRM though a 5 years gap for a reason and in the case of the KL's story was that it's difficult to explain a quicly fall of a Kingdom that is (rather) pacified. He need a device to quicken Cersei's madness, therfore caos.
Why a prophecy?
As we know the main goal of Cersei is to have power, crushing her enemies and therefore to prove that her will determine reality. Obviously this is impossible and her actions are doomed by this very assumption. A prophecy is the representation of all the things she can't control. Her will is to having everything under her control (her life, her children, the kingdom) not for the use of that power but only to demonstrate she's capable. And if she is capable of overthrowing a prophecy she can do everything. This prophecy is a metaphor of all the things she has to overthrow for really be able to use her will above everything else but also this prophecy became an obsession.
It's interesting to notice that the more things go wrong the more Cersei is affected by this obsession. This obsession grows as her will is proven wrong by reality. And this freaks her out, forcing her to wrong decisions, because is a very detailed prophecy (marry the king, 3 kids, you're going to die by the hands of your little brother) that at this point she thinks it's true and she has to beat it. Leading her to more bad decisions and eventually her fall. This is the point of the prophecy and the plot around it.
She could have beat the prophecy easily long before it became an obsession but now it's the metaphor of her fears.
IMHO I don't think that the valonquar's prophecy was used by GRRM for explaining how Cersei will die but it's a beautiful device for her descent into madness.
For me it's not like the PwwP prohecy who fulfill a goal in the whole story. The Valonquar prophecy is known only to Cersei (until the end) and is too detailed to let space for another endings. I will not be surprised if the prophecy will not be fulfilled.
#187
hero on the other side
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Posted 23 February 2011 - 10:45 AM
[quote name='Izria' timestamp='1262883886' post='2017449']
I think the meaning of valonqar is the obvious: Cercei's younger brother. I always believed it to be Jaime because Tyrion's the obvious choice, she herself is sure it is him...which means he probably isn't since Cercei's wrong all the time (just kidding here). Jaime is no longer in love with her, he realized how frantic and unfit for a ruler she is and also he finally sees that she's an awful person. This said it's completely possible that he may turn against her.
What if the creature Qyburn is making "FrankenGregor" has had one of it's hands replaced with Jaime's severed hand? (Qyburn was taking care of Jaime after the Goat cut it off) Then when "FrankenGregor" is defending Cercei it turns on her and strangles her with Jaimes' hand!!!!
I think the meaning of valonqar is the obvious: Cercei's younger brother. I always believed it to be Jaime because Tyrion's the obvious choice, she herself is sure it is him...which means he probably isn't since Cercei's wrong all the time
(just kidding here). Jaime is no longer in love with her, he realized how frantic and unfit for a ruler she is and also he finally sees that she's an awful person. This said it's completely possible that he may turn against her. What if the creature Qyburn is making "FrankenGregor" has had one of it's hands replaced with Jaime's severed hand? (Qyburn was taking care of Jaime after the Goat cut it off) Then when "FrankenGregor" is defending Cercei it turns on her and strangles her with Jaimes' hand!!!!
