186 replies to this topic

[Urri]

Though things might get interesting in the West if Daemon Lannister (the appointed castellan of whom we don't know anything so far) is a man of Ambitions (with a capital "A"). Just look at the Royces to see how deep family loyalties run when you have the prospect of a famous seat.

[cteresa]

Gosh, this woman is stupid! She thinks fast, but she never thinks things through, she is unaware of servants, she does not listen to Kevin. Her politicking is vicious and ruthless but it´s like a grade school recess thing in her complexity.

There are mentions to the smell of the corpse already in the previous Cersei chapter. With a quarrel on his gut, I doubt it was poisoning, nor do i recall mentions of Tywin having been ill before, maybe the smell is just a smell, some irony there, for all is power after death Tywin can control nothing more.

Love Kevin here. Tywin might not have been a great father, but as an older brother he seems to have been loving and loved indeed.

[Slynt]

Crackpot theory:

Regarding the 2nd Cersei chapter, which ends with Kevan Lannister looking very much the lion and with drops of red in his beard;

could Kevan Lannister be the valonquar? He is Tywin's *younger* brother?

Or did the old woman say specifically one of Cersei's brothers?

It could be that Kevan's red beard (in a cersei chapter) foreshadows him killing her (finally taking charge or whatever)

[LadySoftheart]

Slynt, on Dec 22 2005, 14.31, said:

Or did the old woman say specifically one of Cersei's brothers?

It could be that Kevan's red beard (in a cersei chapter) foreshadows him killing her (finally taking charge or whatever)

Oooh, I think the prophecy said "little brother" and it wasn't clear WHOSE.  I always wondered if it mightn't be Tommen (signing his mother's death warrant without knowing) since he's Joff's little brother; or possibly Jaime, who was born after Cersei and is therefore her "little brother", but Kevan makes a lot of sense too ... especially if he blames Cersei for Lancel's religious conversion?

[rpthomps]

I wonder...could someone else have poisoned Tywin before Tyrion killed him? Perhaps he was in the bathroom because he was sick. Here's a stretch: Upset by the fact that Cersei never gave her all that she thought was coming to her, Shae goes to the Martells and deals with them. Perhaps Ellaria? Ellaria slips her poison to give to Tywin. This accounts for his pungent smell and his wicked grin after he dies?

[sh_wulff]

Quote

his wicked grin after he dies?

the latter is due to rigor mortis

the former may be due to putrefaction or other causes..the jury is still out ;)

[Happy Ent]

rpthomps, on Dec 22 2005, 23.36, said:

I wonder...could someone else have poisoned Tywin before Tyrion killed him? Perhaps he was in the bathroom because he was sick

There is a very elaborate theory behind this, claiming that Varys poisoned Tywin with Widow's Blood (same poison Tyrion used on Cersei earlier), which "glued him to the privy shaft". From experience, this theory tends to derail any thread in which it appears, and I suggest we don't pursue it on our reread, apart from observing new evidence pro et contra as we stumble over it.

[Ashara Stark]

Quote

Page 110 – who cast the spell that thickened the manticore poison? Sarella? Is that why she is in Oldtown, to learn magic?

I think it was Oberyn. He studied in the Citadel and forged 6 links ;) Moreover, Tyene words on page 43, saying that she knows the poison used by Oberyn, confirm IMHO that Oberyn knew how to produce it.

Cersei says the coin found in Rugen's cell is not a dragon, so, it is confirmed that golden coins are called dragons only because they have a dragon on them and where forged during the Targaryen's reigns.

Qyburn appearance is described as extremely alike the Kindly Man from the House of Black and White. Qyburn is said to look like a littlegirl's favourite grandfather and the Kindly Man is said to be like the kindliest old man Arya has ever seen A curious coincidence, in my opinion.  :rolleyes:

ETA:
Note on the timeline. In this chapter Cersei already knows that Lysa Arryn is dead, and she says that Littlefinger is already facing the opposition of the Lords of the Vale. So, it seems that Lysa's death took place either few days before Tywin's or simultaneously.

Edited by Ashara Stark, 26 December 2005 - 10:55 AM.

[wfzimmerman]

In Cersei 2, she is concerned about the High Septon who was appointed by Tyrion.  I don't recall -- what did Tyrion have in mind with this appointment?

[Cold Steel Reyne]

IMO Tyrion choose this High Septon merely because he was someone who would do what he was told to do. IIRC Tyrion thought at the time that this man was one who knew which side of the bread his honey was on.One more bad deal by Cersei to trade him for one who instead does what he believes his god tells him.

Edited by Cold Steel Reyne, 29 December 2005 - 12:12 PM.

[Jon Targaryen]

Cersei is definitely paranoid. She sees things in the High Septon’s smile that will eventually lead to her downfall.

“His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep.” Cersei has some self-loathing as well.

Cersei wants so desperately to believe that she will be great, greater than her father.

Cersei wonders if Margaery is homosexual as well as Loras.

“But Lancel lingered, the very picture of a man with one foot in the grave. But is he climbing in or climbing out?” More than one meaning if the theories on unLancel are true.

Is Qyburn telling the truth about it being a spell or is he just trying to get Gregor for his own purposes? I never got a hint that Oberyn was into magic.

Did Varys leave that Gardener coin there?

[Ashara Stark]

Jon Targaryen, on Dec 30 2005, 03.39, said:

Did Varys leave that Gardener coin there?

As Rugen was one of Varys' disguises, it seems he left the coin there. It is not clear for me whether it was left there on purpose to break the alliance between Tyrells and Lannisters.

On the matter of Tywin's corpse smelling so bad, I have found this on the internet about body decay after death:

• 0-3 days. Proteins and carbohydrates in the deceased body begin to break down.
  
• 4-7 days. Body is starting to decay and causes the abdomen to inflate because of the gases inside.
  
• 8-18 days. Decay is well and truly setting in; the abdomen wall begins to break down.
  
• 19-30 days. The decaying body enters a stage know as 'post-decay'; in wet, humid conditions, the body is sticky and wet; in hot dry conditions, the body is dried out.
  
• 31 and over days. The bones, skin and hair that remain no longer give off a powerful stench and smell just like the soil surrounding it.

Source: Forensic Science - Time Since Death
So, it seems that Tywin's body is decaying as fast as if it were not have been embalmed :rolleyes:

[Mulliman]

Ashara Stark, on Dec 31 2005, 16.10, said:

As Rugen was one of Varys' disguises

Gawd, i must totally have missed this. Where can this be ascertained and is this the general view of the hallowed re-readers? :)

[LadySoftheart]

OK, phew!  Nearly caught up to where we are now!!  I love all the Cersei chapters for all that I completely do not love her!!

Martin shows her vanity and her superficiality brilliantly here, I think - where she is more worried about how the black gown doesn't become her (and she couldn't wear the same one she wore for Joffrey's funeral) and that the rain might spoil her careful toilette than she is about it's being her father, dead...  Jaime has clearly thought about what will make Tommen more popular (i.e. riding his horse and scattering coin to the smallfolk) and Cersei comes in and makes him do the opposite - ride hidden in a litter.

She's already suspicious of the High Septon solely because he was appointed by Tyrion.

She thinks "I am not without friends" when she sees all the Westermen in the Great Sept - but ironically, she will ensure that she is without friends by the end of this book (and she starts that process at the end of this chapter in her confrontation with Kevan).

Cersei all in black/ Jaime all in white - the beginning of the complete gulf that will grow up between these two who were once shadows of each other?  Cersei doesn't like that Jaime's wearing his KG whites not Lannister and red-and-gold and she hates that he's growing out his beard (another physical differentiation which Jaime remarked on even back in Storm where he thought Cersei would hate his beard because it made him not look so much like her.)  Jaime won't meet her eyes.

Tommen is too pliant, too willing to please, according to Cersei (who thinks fondly of how fierce Joffrey was - showing bother her own wilful blindness to Joff's psychopathic tendencies and perhaps ironic foreshadowing that when she wants Tommen to do her bidding, he will refuse!)

Cersei also thinks Tywin will be remembered as her father, not the other way 'round.  Tywin's already starting to reek a bit (which plenty of other people have noticed).

After the services, we get the first salvo from Bronn (Falyse Stokeworth says Lollys wants to name her kid after Tywin!) and Lancel tells Cersei that the High Septon was a great comfort to him when he was desperately wounded - thereby sealing the poor old man's death warrant, seeing as Cersei already distrusted him.  (By the way, Jon Targaryen what unLancel theories are these?  None of the unPeople we've met so far seems particularly religious about the Seven - which Lancel totally is - and also, there's something awfully funky about them and Lancel does seem to recover from his wounds, only very slowly as to be expected!  I think he's alive, if somewhat changed!)

Lady Merryweather is already currying favor and/or setting the Tyrell plans in motion; Cersei gets into a battle of wills with the Queen of Thorns - something she is surely going to lose!

Later on, she talks to Qyburn, who chillingly looks like a little girl's favorite grandfather (a creepy resemblance to the kindliest old man that Arya meets?) and reveals that a) Rugen=Varys (well, they don't know that but we do!); B) the coin from Highgarden was hidden in his cell (I firmly believe that Varys put it there, even though I still don't believe he knew Tyrion was going to kill Tywin, sorry, Happy Ent ;))  He also imparts the information that Gregor's veins are turning black (more evidence for the knight with only black blood behind his visor in Bran's dream being unGregor, IMO!)  And lastly, Qyburn apparently was somewhat Mengele-like in performing medical experiments on living people - which is why he lost his chain.  I now feel even more suspicious of Marwyn for having not joined the universal condemnation of Qyburn!)

Lastly, a confrontation with Uncle Kevan closes the chapter - he really is a good guy (and maybe the only person who sincerely mourns Tywin Lannister's death!) but Cersei can't see that he is giving her good advice.  She asks him to be Hand (twice dismissing Jaime as "a gallant fool" and later "a handsome fool" - when it's going to be Cersei who is the fool, really!) and Kevan lays his terms on the table.  In another example of her Manichean thinking (all those not for her are traitors and therefore against her), Cersei makes the leap that Kevan is in the pay of Highgarden, and proceeds to make an enemy out of someone who would have been loyal to Tywin's daughter and grandson, I think.  Even after she throws a cup of wine in his face, Kevan still gives her good advice about getting Rowan or Tarly to serve as Hand, but again, Cersei ignores his advice and decides Kevan has betrayed her.  

In the end, Kevan reveals his knowledge of Tommen's parentage - and perhaps puts himself in deadly danger (Cersei didn't stop at having Tyrion killed; she's unlikely to worry very much about an uncle, is she?)

[winter's child]

- This seems as good a place as any to ask, What is hippocras?
[/quote]

Hippocras is a cordial made from wine and honey and flavored with spices, formerly used as a medicine.  Sometimes served as a dessert wine.  Sometimes confused with mead.  Just FYI.

[Thynessa Reed]

Poor old Cissy! She's a mess. And she is noticing all the wrong things. She notices that Jaime has not shaved (but doesn't see that it's probably because he has been standing vigil) She sees that there are no crowds in the streets but doesn't see that she should have filled the streets with mourners and got the people out by letting Tommen distribute largesse. And on it goes. Not that reading it all isn't fun. Cersei's chapters are a riot. A romp. She's a mad old trollop. May she die of the shock of giving birth to a dwarf.

[rpthomps]

A couple of interesting points:

Cersei finds a “bloody half-formed chick,” (pg 172) what could this mean?

Ossifer Plumm? (pg 174) – who is this?

It’s interesting that Cersei that thinks of EVERYONE as the enemy. As a queen, she should be trying to make EVERYONE her “…own people…”(pg 181)

[A wilding]

Cersei III

The bloody chick is probably an indication that Cersei does not like what is being put before her this day, i.e. the wedding.

Ossifer Plumm sounds like an interesting legend, but I don't think we have the details of it yet.

This chapter gives us the first (?) hints of Cersei putting on weight ("Cinch it tighter"), and developing a drink problem.

The contrast between Tommen's and Joffrey's weddings is explicitly mentioned in this chapter, and it is striking and amusing. Joffrey's wedding was boasting the triumph and power of the Lannister - Tyrell alliance. Tommen's wedding is a small low key affair with ultra tight security, but they are still jumping at every shadow.

As an aside, it seemed to me that the archers that set the Tower of the Hand alight were something of a lapse of security, considering that otherwise only the KG were allowed to be armed. What was to stop one of them shooting at Tommen instead?

On my first read, I assumed that at the end of this chapter Cersei took Osmund to bed once she had tired of looking at the tower. This would strengthen the parallels between her and Mad King Aerys. But given her later comment of it only ever being any good with Jaime, I am no longer sure.

Edited by A wilding, 16 January 2006 - 08:14 AM.

[A wilding]

This is also the chapter in which Taena Merryweather shops Senelle to Cersei to gain her trust. It would seem that Taena was confident Cersei would find the evidence of Senelle's guilt and that Cersei did in fact do so. Lets try some analysis here.

Senelle is one of:

(a) Entirely innocent, having been set up.

(B) Guilty of spying for Margaery. In this case Margaery has been told about the coin that Varys left behind in his cell to implicate the Tyrells.

( c) Somewhere in between. For example she has been befriended by some of Margaery's entourage and has innocently let things slip to them without realising the implications. Margaery may have been told of the coin.

When carted off to the Black Cells by Qyburn later Senelle does not act like a guilty person, so I would tend to eliminate (B). If Taena is really working for Margaery, then Margaery has deliberately sacrificed Senelle, which would also tend to imply that she was not that useful an information source, i.e. (a) or ( c). If Taena is not working for Margaery, it would be difficult for her to set up Senelle, which implies (B) or ( c). I think that is about as far as we can go, but ( c) seems the most likely option.


Incidentally, Cersei's reaction to the news is not that of a master game player. The smart thing would be to first think through what Senelle could have told Margaery, and then to think about the possibilities of leaving her in place as a way to feed Margaery disinformation.

Finally, we see that, right from the start, Taena is working to feed Cersei's hatred of Margaery.

Edited by A wilding, 16 January 2006 - 08:23 AM.

[Happy Ent]

When I first read this chapter, I though Cersei's fascination with wildfire was something GRRM pulled out of his hat, but later I remembered that her single clever deed in the defence of King's Landing had been to have the pyromancers make more wildfire. Tyrion of course has the brains to make really good use of the substance, but Cersei actually had an original thought there.

(Crackpot mode: Or did Varys tell her? Just like he may have "told her" via somebody else (Hallyne?) to burn down the Tower of the Hand, a singularly stupid idea if you want to uncover the secret passages through the Red Keep.)

In any case, the scene is already a favourite image of mine. Cersei, drunk as a sailor, her bodice barely containing her deliciously rounded body, leaning on an immaculate white Kingguard, both illuminated in green, while the tower burns.

Also funny: GRRM doesn't even need to give me a Jaime POV in the last scene. I know exactly what his internal monologue is saying right there when Cersei dismisses him and stays with the Kettleblack.

Timeline The Stokesworths are all absent. I assume that poor Lollys is about to pop out the child fathered by half of King's Landing. I have her due-date at 1 March 300, based on meticulous calculations all the way back from the day Myrcella left for Dorne (and hence riddled with lots of what-ifs and guesses).

Let's put 26 February on this day. Some three weeks since the last Cersei chapter, where Tywin was rotting in the Great Sept. Since then, the wedding has been decided and arranged and Jaime has been digging through tunnels.