AFFC Reread Project - Arya

[cteresa]

Thread to discuss Arya´s PoV chapters. Provisory schedule dates to start such discussion,

Page numbers are from the Uk hardback

19-Dez-05 Arya 1 page 87 to 98

20-Fev-06 Arya 2 page 312 to 328

3-Abr-06 Arya 3 page 504 to 518

16-Jan-06 Arys page 185 to 198

Will change above if there are any mistakes (please let me know!) or alterations.

[rpthomps]

In a sweet way, Arya has risen in my esteem, particularly in ASoS, to become my favorite character. Tyrion is a very close second. When I read GRRM blurb about sectioning the book into two parts, I feared that Arya’s would be in the second one due to the fact that she is in the east with Dany and presumably Tyrion. However, I was quite pleased when this didn’t turn out to be the case.

Arya’s journey, like Alice in Wonderland, reads almost like a fable. She meets evils in the form of men and she meets the miraculous (Lord Baric). Her journey is wonder-filled because it is through her eyes that we see the war at the commons’ level. We hear the stories, often plagued by rumour, that are shared by all the commoners. We hear their superstition and some of its founded which makes her tale all the more interesting.

Arya, whose destiny doesn’t seem to be under her control right now. I had hopes she would be a superb swordswoman, and based on this chapter, I imagine her becoming an unstoppable assassin with strange gifts. However, Arya still has many years of training left and although I want to see her as an experienced adult, I fear that the pace that GRRM goes at (slow and steady – a good thing, mind you) I will never see this woman.

From the chapter itself, little thoughts –

Arya concludes on page 93 that Bravos has no trees, yet on the Titan’s Daughter she sees “slopes covered with pine and spruce†(pg 90)

Bravos is as advanced as the Roman’s were at the peak of their empire scientifically. They have an aqueduct called the “sweet water river†the carries fresh water for miles from the mainland across bogs and marshland. (This seems like a weakness to the Bravos defense. How is IT protected during times of siege?)

I am assuming the coin didn’t open the door for Arya into the temple but it was the phrase Valar morghulis fore their were others in the temple waiting to die or who have already died and presumably, they did not have coins.

Plenty of references of women with bowls (The Titan’s Daughter forecastle was a maid with a bowl of fruit, one of the gods was a 12 foot tall woman with a bowl…)

Some of the Many faces of the Many-Faced God:

1) 12 foot tall woman with a bowl, crying

2) A man with a Lion’s head, sitting on a throne, carved of ebony

3) Horse of bronze and iron

4) Stone face

5) Pale infant with a sword

6) Huge Shaggy black goat

7) Hooded man leaning on a staff

[A wilding]

Arya thinks she does not need friends, as what good have they ever done her. In a tight situation she draws Needle instinctively. She seems almost contemptuous of the idea that the KoM's skull illusion might frighten her. Yet she is still not quite certain that Old Nan's story that the Titan eats highborn maidens is just a story. She is only eleven. She makes even me want to give her a big hug and find some suitable foster parents for her.

The sailors do not need to know Arya's name. They assume that she is already No-one. Yet they have a superstitious desire that she remember their names. At a wild guess, perhaps someone who has done a service for the Faceless Men cannot be killed by them?

Braavos is very similar to Venice, right down to having a Arsenal that boasts it can build a war galley in a day. I also thought that the aqueduct was a weakness, but presumably the city has cisterns, and ships could bring in water during a siege.

P.S. I once played a D&D character called "The Waif". A short high Dex fighter who looked much younger than she was, and who was psychologically damaged by a dodgy past and in consequence only really happy when killing people. But I forgive GRRM for pinching her.

[Reposado]

i'm starting to get the impression that i don't like what's going to happen to arya. it probably would have been better(for her i mean, not the story) if she had gone with jaqen. i mean, the look at the faceless men and braavos is great but is she even going to be recognizable by the end?

[Happy Ent]

I posted my musings about The Mechanics of Faceless Men in a thread last year. Let me revisit some of the ideas in light of this first Arya chapter.

A agree with a wildling with respect to the gifts given to Arya, and the insistence that she learn the gift-giver's name.

There is an elaborate system of debt at the core of Faceless Man values, a concept of service, obligation, and gifts owed. Obligations are owed, and the sailors obviously think that it is a good idea to have a Faceless Man owe you something. Like a wildling, I assume that a Faceless Man will turn down a contract on a name (which embodies the person) that he owes something to.

To expand on this (based more on Arya's Harrenhal chapters), the debt is owed by the personality currently held by the Faceless Man. If I give Jaqhen H'gar a gift, he cannot kill me. But the Alchemist could set me on fire any time he wanted. Remember the debt Jaquen owed Arya? Jaqen suddenly was in a hurry (because he received the Oldtown contract, we must now assume) to leave Harrenhal. (*) But first it was of paramount importance to him to get rid of the Arya debts, the debts Jaqen owes her. "A man would have done."

Immediately after the weasel soup incident, Jaqen is free to go.

The debt is paid.â€

“The debt is paid,†Arya agreed reluctantly. She felt a little sad. Now she was just a mouse again.

“A god has his due. And now a man must die.†A strange smile touched the lips of Jaqen H’ghar.

“Die?†she said, confused. What did he mean? “But I unsaid the name. You don’t need to die now.â€

“I do. My time is done.†Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Arya’s mouth hung open. “Who are you?†she whispered, too astonished to be afraid. “How did you do that? Was it hard?â€

He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. “No harder than taking a new name, if you know the way.â€

I like the fact that Arya actually says "Who are you?" but then asks another question instead of waiting for the answer. I would have wanted to hear the Alchemist's answer, though I think I know it. "No one. Truly."

Two interpretations for the part I but in bold face: (1) Jaqen's time is done, because his debts are paid. (2) More crackpot: Faceless Man identities have an expire date. The Jaqen identity was running out. That's why he was in such a hurry to get Arya's last debt paid before the Jaqen identity began to disintegrate.

In any case, the Faceless Man is now free to continue to Oldtown to kill Pate. As we already observed, he needs Pate to be a criminal in order to kill him. This makes me believe that there is no contract on Pate in particular. Pate is just a convenient new identity. Faceless Men cannot just kill out of convenience. They need a debt. However, Faceless Men can kill criminals, including thieves (Pate) and oathbreakers (Daeron). Pate having been accused of stealing isn't enough.

I wonder if the Jaqen identity had been allowed to do this, by the way. I think not. The alchemist identity (which I assume is the "correct," default identity of our Faceless Man) clearly had a job to do. For reasons we don't understand he was Jaqen for a while. Jaqen incurred some debts (to Arry, via the Fire God), which had to be balanced. But it is the alchemist identity that received the original Oldtown contract (which we also don't yet know about).

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Arya apparently didn't want to go to Braavos. I assumed, after ASOS, that she made conscious decision to become Faceless, but it was evidently not so.

Superstitious reactions of the crew are interesing. They evidently asuume that she is Faceless already, but some of them still give her gifts, evidently not realizing she wouldn't be allowed to keep them.

Titan is quite big. He has to be at least one hunderd meters high. Braavos is very big and modern city, compared to Westeros. We get to realize that Westeros is really backward part of the world. King's Landing appears to be just an oversized village compared to Braavos.

The pale child - Bakkalon - is interesting case of recycling from Martin's science fiction universe. Some of the others gods we see or the first time. There is temple of forgotetn gods. Apparently the idea that al gods deserve worship - what we have heard from Jaqen -is deeply embedded in Braavosi culture.

The suicide rituals are intriguing. I wonder if all old and/or crippled people in Braaos are expected to put end to their lives.

Eating the worm is great touch. Yet another example of Martin repeating some motif - in this case Arya eating worms in the wilderness - in order to use it in a punchline later on.

[Wouter]

Yet she is still not quite certain that Old Nan's story that the Titan eats highborn maidens is just a story. She is only eleven.

I also thought that to be funny. I wonder a bit about the Titan and highborn maidens though - could be a reference to Littlefinger and Sansa, in a figurative way.

[rpthomps]

Immediately after the weasel soup incident, Jaqen is free to go.

It would appear that some debts require immediate payback. For instance, "knowing" the names of others and obtaining gifts does not seem to be enough to hold Jaqen in his current form. However, when Arya saves his life, he is obligated to stay until she commands the life of three.

[Thynessa Reed]

"All Gods are honoured in Braavos" Denyo, the captain's son, tells Arya on deck as the Titan's Daughter makes for the Lagoon. Denyo tells her that there is even a Sept where Westerosi sailors worship.

And in her mind Arya denies her mother's Gods - the Seven - who allowed Catelyn to be murdered by the Freys. She even thinks the Old Gods are dead along with Eddard and Robb and Bran and Dickon. But still she wonders for a while if she will come across a godswood in Braavos, with a weirwood at its heart.

Well she comes to the closest thing. The entrance to the House of Black and White is made up of carved doors twelve feet high - the left door made of weirwood and the right of ebony. In the centre is a carved moonface - ebony on the weirwood side, wierwood on the ebony, and the look of it somehow reminds Arya of the heart tree in the godswood of Winterfell.

The fumes of the temple incense or scented candles contain a drug because when Arya first enters she notices the smell to be unfamiliar but later recognises the scent as a mixture of snow and pine needles and hot stew - good smells - and by the end of the chapter she has had a Oaxaca-Carlos-Casteneda-mescal type moment with a Faceless man/priest complete with worm.

All the Stark children have now come to a point where their identities have been obliterated. They reside now, in underworlds, in places of transformation, seeking different guises.

[Rustam]

Eating the worm is great touch. Yet another example of Martin repeating some motif - in this case Arya eating worms in the wilderness - in order to use it in a punchline later on.

This is something that I'd missed - I kept wondering: why did she try to eat it? I thought it might have been a show of bravery or something (and it could be, sort of), but it makes perfect sense in the light that she's been eating worms for quite a while

She is only eleven.

Not even that, she's "almost eleven". Which could mean anything from ten and three months up coming from a ten year old's mouth It's heartbreaking.

This jumped out in my reading, coming from when Denyo is speaking about the gods of Braavos:

We esteem the Father of Waters as well, but his house is built anew whenever he takes his bride.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what this refers to? From what I can see, it could be anything from astrological (ie. the moon or sun is his wife, and his "house" is high tide, or something) to sacrificial. Also, we have the Drowned God of the Ironborn, another god of the sea, but I don't think these two gods would be related.

I also noticed how Sandor's teaching her about the "gift of mercy" might help her in learning to give the gift as a Faceless Man. In this chapter she thinks (about the Hound): I should have given him the gift of mercy and put a knife into his heart.

Any other Pratchett readers reminded of The Temple of Small Gods in the bit about The Warren, where they "honor the small gods the world has forgotten"? Not to mention Arya's feet telling her about the floor, heh.

The temple's black tile roof came to a sharp peak, like the houses along the canals. Arya chewed her lip. Syrio came from Braavos. He might have visited this temple. He might have climbed these steps.

Especially after we find out what this place is for, this paragraph becomes very foreboding. Perhaps he did come here after we see him for the last time in KL, mortally wounded, to drink from the black pool?

I think it's been mentioned before, but the ebony on weirwood, weirwood on ebony doors are very yin-yang.

Her final line in the chapter is so great. Even though I'm not really sure what she was referring to when she thought it... I feel that it displays her tenacity and ferocity, her twisted thinking born of how her life has been since KL, but also her uncertainty about what she's trying to achieve.

All in all, great chapter!

[False Prophet]

This is something that I'd missed - I kept wondering: why did she try to eat it? I thought it might have been a show of bravery or something (and it could be, sort of), but it makes perfect sense in the light that she's been eating worms for quite a while

The problem is the worm-eating motif is not well prepared. One can only infer it logically well after all is read and reread. The motif does not recur in the text. Compare it with the motif of a lone wolf as opposed to a pack, where Arya recalls time and time again how her father has not been right, after all.

The worm-eating scene is cool but weak in terms of characterization. There is nothing to suggest why she did that, except that the author said so.

Leo

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

The problem is the worm-eating motif is not well prepared. One can only infer it logically well after all is read and reread. The motif does not recur in the text. Compare it with the motif of a lone wolf as opposed to a pack, where Arya recalls time and time again how her father has not been right, after all.

The worm-eating scene is cool but weak in terms of characterization. There is nothing to suggest why she did that, except that the author said so.

Leo

Well, I obviously disagree. Arya eats the worm because it is what she does - it is one of her most characteristic traits, IMHO. OTOH I tend to edit out often repeated sentences, so I completely missed the lone wolf fragment during first reading.

[cteresa]

Right at the beginning of the chapter, Arya says she did not know what to wish for. Poor kid, for a 11 year old to have nothing to wish for, to have no hope.

Arya does not name Sansa, she thinks her parents and her brothers are dead, but Sansa she does not even think about.

Braavos is definetely Venice, and the aqueduct is one of its vulnerable points indeed - I think in Venice they had none (?), but used wells for drinkable water, an aqueduct can be vulnerable indeed.

Arya eating the worm makes perfect sense to me, , not just that she had eaten those beforem but that the man is trying to scare her, so her reaction makes perfect sense "trying to scare me, hiuh? I am not afraid of worms or death , will eat that".

I assumed the guy trailing his fingers on the water was toying with suicide, Arya unwarily brings him death for sure.

I think there is definetely something on the name, if they think Arya is already a faceless man or if she is going to became one, doing her a small favor ( which she accepts) and making sure she knows their name might be a hold later,a small one maybe, but some sort of defense. Interesting also that part of the crew just avoids her.

The moonsingers guided people to where the dragons of Valyria could not find them. Hmm, interesting. Braavos must have been founded by runaways or criminals but why could the dragons not find them?

No ideas about the gods Arya sees, they seem so generic!

[Jaehaerys]

Cteresa,

One of Bravos' natural defences against the dragons not finding them is likely the gloom/fog/mist that we later hear about.

[Lupigis]

I can't quite get the significance of a faceless man knowing your name straight. Perhaps with the help of the rest of you, though...

On the ship, the sailors think Arya is a faceless man. They clearly want her to know their name (and we speculate that they think this will protect them somehow). In the temple, the old man wants to know Arya's name. He pushes her until she tells him the truth. Does this mean that Arya is now under the same type of protection against the old man (whatever precisely the nature of that protection may be) as the sailors believed themself to be against Arya?

And another thing: I bet that Jaquen has already reported his encounter with Arya, including giving her the coin, back to his headquarters. Thus, the old man likely knows a lot more about Arya than she realises. Do you think the FM has special plans for her? She may not be just an ordinary recruit, but an important piece in the game they are playing in Westeros.

[Poor Fellow]

She is only eleven. She makes even me want to give her a big hug and find some suitable foster parents for her.

The best real-world insight I have gotten into an Arya-like character recently is watching a very powerful documentary about Romanian street kids called Children Underground, particularly two characters (actually, real people): Ana (who at the time of filming was the age Arya is in AFfC) and Cristina (who is 16 as filmed but talks about what she was like as a ten year old; she also poses as a boy). Now these kids come from much more dysfunctional backgrounds originally than Arya, but they provide a lot of cred to the verisimilitude of Martin's portrayal of a young girl hardened beyond her years by horror and suffering. This film is worth watching for lots of reasons, but I especially recommend it for Arya fans. Having seen it, I was much readier to accept the idea that under the right conditions a traumatized 10 year old girl would indeed cut a man's throat.

A Poor Fellow

[Ashara Stark]

I liked Arya regretting not having given Sandor the gift of mercy. In ASoS I was very disappointed by the way she treated Sandor, leaving him alone after all he had done for her. Her remorse indicates that there is still a possibility of a future redemption for her.

One of Bravos' natural defences against the dragons not finding them is likely the gloom/fog/mist that we later hear about.

You are probably right, Jaehaerys. I also wondered why the dragons couldn't find Braavos, and the fog is the most likely answer.

In this chapter there Arya says stupid only six times. The most stupid sentence is the one she shouts at the doors of the House of Black and White: "Let me in, you stupid!" Of course, Arya's version of "Open semame" doesn't have any effect on the doors, they open because she says the "Valar morghulis".

Any other Pratchett readers reminded of The Temple of Small Gods in the bit about The Warren, where they "honor the small gods the world has forgotten"?

Me!

That also made me think that if gods in Martin's planet behave like the ones in Discworld, R'hllor is becoming more powerful because there are lots of new converts in Westeros

[Happy Ent]

The [sailors] clearly want her to know their name (and we speculate that they think this will protect them somehow).

No, no. We think that the services and gifts that the sailors give her protect them. That's we they want her to know their name, because if she ever was given the contract to "Kill Popeye", she would refuse it. But if she didn't know the name, I am sure she would be forced to kill Popeye, even when she realises (too late) that Popeye once taught her to tie knots. It's quite clear that as soon as the FM agrees to kill a man (or rather, an identity, like Jaqen H'gar), he cannot refuse. Therefore you better make sure that the FM doesn't accept the contract in the frist place. Hence not only does he need to owe you, he also needs to know your name.

[Mulliman]

The moonsingers guided people to where the dragons of Valyria could not find them. Hmm, interesting. Braavos must have been founded by runaways or criminals but why could the dragons not find them?

No ideas about the gods Arya sees, they seem so generic!

Venice, or the lagoon around it was populated by people who had fled from the barbarian invasions that threatened Italy and all of Europe at that during the time after the collapse of Western Rome. The same could be said of Braavos, where the people flee to a place that is so extremely defensible that it doesnt make sense to invade when there are other cities, far more ripe for plunder than some poor marshes slightly away from the wealth-zones.

Which leads me to ask this question to you all-knowing rereaders . Was Braavos founded before or after the Doom?

[Rustam]

Which leads me to ask this question to you all-knowing rereaders . Was Braavos founded before or after the Doom?

Before! (I'm quite sure,) because it was a refuge for people fleeing from the tyrannical Valyrians Or something.